Yes. But one was clearly more prominent in an official way.
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Japanese Reactions to the Ghost in the Shell (2017) Movie
- Thread starter Antiochus
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Desperate dudes still licking their wounds over this flick bombing so damn hard?
Using 'SJW' unironically?
Stay salty man. I mean, asking two Japanese people about the film isn't going to reverse this movies fortune, so I don't know what you are looking for here. The markets that matter (both domestic and international at this point) have made their opinion on this film known whether you like it or not.
Using 'SJW' unironically?
Stay salty man. I mean, asking two Japanese people about the film isn't going to reverse this movies fortune, so I don't know what you are looking for here. The markets that matter (both domestic and international at this point) have made their opinion on this film known whether you like it or not.
Onlinehero
Member
The only thing more ridiculous than the OP:s thoughts or that one japanese person ends all debate is that the shallow tween my first philosophy of dank anime wasn't captured properly because "Hollywood".
Vigilant Walrus
Member
It might be a uncanny valley argument that could be made. We're more annoyed and disturbed by things that are closer to us in various ways, but we for whatever become uncomfortable with the small differences from how it really would be. The small differences are magnified and enlarged and they become annoying. Where as if we have a version or interpretation that is further distanced from us; more rapidly different or a stylized, we have a capacity to accept it as something different.
Perhaps what would trigger many asians is if foreigners think that all asians are the same, right? As in many people in the audience might not be ignorant about the difference between the differences between Koreans and Japanese, and not knowing the difference or the fear of being thought of as someone else is not fun.
For example most of my eastern European friends would take offense if you mistook them from Russians. Albeit, it is not easy for people not accustomed to the region to visible see the difference between a Russian and a Lithuanian.
When it comes to story, there is an argument that you could make, that taking a story, and removing it completely from its culture, origin and sense of self can make it better. Fables are excellent deconstructed example of stories with a human morale, attached on to animals. By making animals the character of the story, people are more predisposed to accept the morale and wisdom of the story, than they would have been, had it been told through a cultural vacuum of its original origin point in various cultures.
But in the context of hollywood it's a tricky situation. Personally I've been humbled but also angry. Oldboy to me is an example of a film I just hated and didn't want to give a chance. I still don't see the value in that remake. The original is perfectly excellent as is. The remake serves no value other than to take focus away from a modern, relevant and important cinema masterpiece.
What would it have taken for me to accept and love the remake?
I had the same debacle with The Departed. Infernal Affairs was one of my favorite surprises. I was blown away by it, and only a few months after I saw it, the remake was announced, and it just seemed so pointless. But with the Departed I reconciled that the Western Version stands up to the original. It simply is a fantastic movie, although it's the same story. It's a testament to how well it was that, I still didn't saw the ending coming, even though it's exactly as in the original.
I'm a fan of cultural appropriation in the sense that I think most of our greatest things ever made have come from things that have been remixed. There is nothing wrong with taking a story like Heart of Darkness and putting it down on a film about the vietnam war. There is nothing wrong with being inspired by taking a Japanese film like Rashomon and putting the story structure down on a Chinese film about the Qin Dynasty.
The problem with appropriation (as far as I can tell) is when you get a situation where the remake or reinterpretation serves no purpose beyond stealing it without it offering something new. Infernal Affairs and The Departed are the same story, but there are subplots and various subplots and themes in the Departed that make you think that the story was made to be about Irish mafia and immigration in America. It doesn't feel shoehorned at all.
Appropriation discussions get messy because we're often arguing different things. But everything is remixed from other cultures. But at the same time, it'd be insane to deny that there isn't "Eminem" situations all around us.
Thanks to the cultural and historical tensions in East Asia, Japanese people in general would be more offended if an asian American (that wasn't of Japanese origin) played a Japanese person than, say a white or a black American.
That's just how it is over there, and it's different from our perspective. For most of us (not all of course), there's no problem if a white person played a white person, or a black person played a black person, regardless of nationality.
It's interesting, to say the least.
That's just how it is over there, and it's different from our perspective. For most of us (not all of course), there's no problem if a white person played a white person, or a black person played a black person, regardless of nationality.
It's interesting, to say the least.
you're right in that race shouldn't define some of these characters, but there's a reason why changing a side character from white to minority is a hell of a lot different to recasting a main character the other way round. as mentioned in my previous post there's a historical precedent for a lack of minority roles and other cases of whitewashing in western media. so whilst recasting a character who's mostly been seen as white as a minority may cause a bit of controversy, it's ultimately a better step than recasting a minority role with . one is giving more minority representation that's been severely lacking, the other is taking away some of the few opportunities a minority actor might have in getting a role. if the way race has been represented in media had been totally fair and proportional up until this point i could see why swapping out any race/gender of a character would be equally fair whichever way it is done - but up until now it absolutely hasn't been.
and - spoilers - to answer your question about johansson's character:
yes, she's inherently asian. the big 'twist' in the film is that her ghost/consciousness was from a japanese teenage girl who -sigh- was called motoko (i.e. the original name of the character). this is how the film internalised the whitewashing argument into it's plot.
The international market is the only thing preventing this from being a complete disaster. China and Japan will be the biggest factors there.
MikeHattsu
Member
A lot of Chinese people weren't happy either:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/01/m...entiment-china-cancels-release-of-geisha.html
The last part is not true, a lot of people in Africa don't like it, when Americans or English play Africans. So that is not that easy as well.
WrenchNinja
Member
What an idiot.
I'm specifically speaking about people here in the west. I can't speak for the people in Africa.
There has been some pushback against it in the US as well in recent years, given films like Captain Phillips that showcased African actors so well.
I understand that. I just wish they would see it from the perspective of understanding the auteurs' culture.
But that's what happens when art is also an entertainment product I guess.
I did, Gits is only 7 mil ahead of Power rangers.
Yeah I feel like its international numbers are being praised waaaay to easily here. Its still a humongous brick. International isnt 'saving' this film. They are planning a 80m loss or somewhere in there on this.
Playing, "Who's the bigger bomba" doesn't really help anyone here.
You don't think that people outside of the US see the US as a white country?
Power Rangers:
Domestic: $75,095,645 64.1%
+ Foreign: $42,100,000 35.9%
Ghost in The Shell:
Domestic: $31,529,863 25.4%
+ Foreign: $92,800,000 74.6%
And the gap will get bigger very, very fast.
Ghostbusters 2016
Domestic: $128,350,574 56.0%
+ Foreign: $100,796,935 44.0
So it made almost as much as Ghostbusters in only 10 days already.
to be clear - i'm not trying to say the film bombed because they cast johansson. i just didn't think that the argument against casting an asian american actress over scarlett johansson 'because otherwise the film wouldn't do well' didn't hold weight when it flopped on it's opening. it bombed spectacularly in the US. despite johansonn's name it barely made half the money that lucy did in america and on a budget 3 times the size. even if it's making more money than power rangers in other markets (which i'm not sure why you've brought up - i never mentioned that?) it's still not doing well. hell even paramount execs have spoken out about doing poorly citing the controversy as the reason. it's set to lose about 60 million worldwide.
1st Course
Member
This need to be quoted again.
Yes, because of the controversy, not because hiring Scarlett was wrong. You can not do that much, if people make something up, which is no way connected to movie or the context or the universe of the movie. And maybe it would have done better in the US, but not as well on the international market, so how would have that been better?
The US is not the center of the universe you know, as movies like Warcraft on one hand or Power Rangers on the other hand prove.
Nothing as far as the whitewashing charges being lobbed at GITS. It did have its fair share, but that was mainly aimed at the disappointing adherence to the original film that offered little new, along with the compromised quality of the final product after we found out about the film being taken away from Spike Lee and hacked to pieces.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I forgot about the Old Boy remake, and so did everyone else. There wasn't any uproar since that movie was kinda doing it's own thing while staying faithful to the original. It should have gone to a minority but regardless that movie is in all ways inferior to the original, just like GitS.
The Major's defining traits isn't her appearance. I would also argue Superman or Clark Kent isn't defined by his appearance either. Superman and The Major can be played by anyone from a different background cuz it's their character that makes them who they are.
If your gonna play with the concept that race is interchangeable, that identities are nothing more than "shells" as the movie likes to remind you over and over, you better have something meaningful to say instead of using it to double down on casting ScarJo. And yes, her character is suppose to be Asian.
China isn't the center of the universe, which Hollywood seems to think it is.
Turin Turambar
Member
People from USA tend to think their way of thinking and issues are universal to humanity. Nothing new.
If the film bombs, it isn't because the race issue. First because it isn't seen as a problem in lots of other nations, second because MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT. If I ask my boss or I ask my sister about the film, she doesn't really know it's an adaption of a manga/anime from Japan. She only saw some ads on tv about it. Your average moviegoer doesn't know about it.
Btw, there is an interesting point in Japan doing 'asian-washing' of some anime adaptions with their live action films. Because it happens that some of them are in fictional settings with Caucasian looking people (blond hair, blue yes, white, etc), or are 'melting-pot' settings where only 1 or 2 characters are supposed to be Asian, but of course they cast everyone as Japanese. Attack on Titan or Full Metal Alchemist are recent examples.
And people aren't surprised or outraged in Japan. It's a Japanese film done by a Japanese company for the Japanese audience recorded in Japanese, of course they are going to cast [famous] Japanese actors, not unknown foreigners just because that way would be more 'faithful'.
If the film bombs, it isn't because the race issue. First because it isn't seen as a problem in lots of other nations, second because MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT. If I ask my boss or I ask my sister about the film, she doesn't really know it's an adaption of a manga/anime from Japan. She only saw some ads on tv about it. Your average moviegoer doesn't know about it.
Btw, there is an interesting point in Japan doing 'asian-washing' of some anime adaptions with their live action films. Because it happens that some of them are in fictional settings with Caucasian looking people (blond hair, blue yes, white, etc), or are 'melting-pot' settings where only 1 or 2 characters are supposed to be Asian, but of course they cast everyone as Japanese. Attack on Titan or Full Metal Alchemist are recent examples.
And people aren't surprised or outraged in Japan. It's a Japanese film done by a Japanese company for the Japanese audience recorded in Japanese, of course they are going to cast [famous] Japanese actors, not unknown foreigners just because that way would be more 'faithful'.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Japan doesn't need to cast unknowns of different races cuz they don't need to appeal to that market. Their movies are appealing to Japan. They don't have a large number of white or black actors looking for work.
BudokaiMR2
Member
That's not 100% true. I haven't followed the FMA movie, but the AoT movie was raked over the coals, by fans in particular. The casting issue was just one among a plethora of others though.
xKilltheMx
Member
And this is an american film, filmed in america, for the american audience. Of course they're going to cast [famous] japanese-american actors, not unknown foreigners because that would be more 'faithful'.
I can do it too!
America is a melting pot, and we have plenty of actors of all races here, stop trying to compare a mostly monolithic homogeneous country to america, it makes you look silly.
Garrett Hawke
Member
1) the production company literally said it was
2) do u really think this is just a big coincidence
So-called progressives revealing themselves as nationalists.
SomedayTheFire
Member
damn, that's a lot of coinkydinks1) the production company literally said it was
2) do u really think this is just a big coincidence
No. No, it's not.
Europe is a thing in europe though.There is a european union.
Chuckie
Member
Yes but not in this context though.
If some famous Dutchman is being played by a Frenchman in a movie, I am not going to be like: Wow....an European got the role, not an American...I am so happy!
i'm not saying that the film is doing poorly because it has scarlett johansson in the lead, i'm trying to say that since it has done poorly, it complicates the notion that a well known white actress like johansson was needed for it to do well (because it hasn't). i definitely didn't phrase my argument including the paramount execs right, but the fact that the studio has literally already been in damage control mode to blame the controversy shows that the film's already done poorly in their eyes and - much as is the hollywood tradition - they are going to blame somebody else other than themselves. and even if the controversy specifically were to blame for the film doing poorly, how does that then prove at all that casting on johansson's star power is helping the film? how do you know that someone other than johansson would have resulted in it doing poorer outside? your agument weighs on the idea that johansson was needed for the film to do well but, again, it isn't doing well enough to confirm that - it's done terribly domestically and it's still not doing good enough elsewhere to stop it from being a box office disappointment. the film is set to lose the studio $60 million, as per these articles from yesterday:
variety
forbes
independent
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
There's been no news of outrage over there about this. I remember a theresdozensofus.gif article someone on gaf found to prove how mad people in Japan are about this lmao when he posted it another topic. Most of the people in the states complaining are not even asian americans, but white people which is comical. It's almost like a meme at this point. I actually would also prefer someone asian since I watched the anime a while back.. but from a financial POV when you're dropping that kind of cash you want the most popular female actress running that ship which is ScarJo or Jlaw. Especially something with a niche market potential in the West.
A manga to movie adaptation does bad and below what higher ups expected. In other news, water is also wet.
As I said before, no one batted an eyelid when Pierce Brosnan played bond. Could an Asian actress could have played the role without controversy?
SomedayTheFire
Member
most people think the irish are british anyway :-/
Garrett Hawke
Member
It's like when people point to Japanese games as good presentation of women cus Japan is "fine with it" while ignoring the sexual harassment stats. Lol.
Funny how people keep running to japan to cosign this fuckery.
Trying to apply "One of the Good Ones" status to an entire country for a small subset of the population
If there were Asian-Americans complaining (which there are), would it change anything for you? Asian-Americans might not have uniform opinions but I think the ones who worry about minority representation have legitimate concerns that people shouldn't ignore because someone in Asia thinks differently.
1) the production company literally said it was
2) do u really think this is just a big coincidence
Well aside from the casting controversy, those movies are also crap.
Something that seems to go hand in hand with white washing, but people keep doing it
Chuckie
Member
I wouldn't bat an eyelid either if a Frenchy would play a Dutchy... although if he had to speak Dutch and it would sound shit I'd probably 'complain' about that. But I don't think it is a black or white situation. More a bit like this:
Asian: Japanese would probably be pissed to be portrayed by Chinese
European (mainland): Maybe mildly annoyed if portrayed badly by other Yurops or Yanks...or not care.
English: Probably not annoyed to be portrayed by Americans, they are also used to it.
So to answer your question: People in Japan would probably not like it if a Chinese-American would have played the Major. But to be honest I have no idea what Japanese Americans or Korean Americans would think about that.
Discotheque
Banned
lone ranger was good.
i think overall though all these movies flopping has more to do with just lack of appeal though over whitewashing. it's just an unfortunate coincidence too that they all share that issue.
when was the last time a cameron crowe movie did well. as much as I hoped a massive blockbuster western would be a hit...lmao that's dead in the water. gods of egypt looked trash. pan looked trash. etc.
JigglesBunny
Banned
If we're being honest, in the end, the casting issue was the least of the movies problems. That lies in the awful writing, pacing and the softening of the violence and dismissal of the original's central themes.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I feel like the two go hand in hand tho. Just a lack of care overall, which leads to shit movies.
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