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Japan's lower house passes bills that allow overseas troops for 1st time since WWII

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drtomoe123

Member
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/17/world/asia/japans-lower-house-passes-bills-giving-military-freer-hand-to-fight.html

TOKYO — The lower house of Japan’s Parliament passed legislation on Thursday that would give the country’s military limited powers to fight in foreign conflicts for the first time since World War II.

The lawmakers acted despite broad public opposition to the legislation, which has set off Japan’s largest demonstrations since the aftermath of the Fukushima nuclear accident four years ago.

The bills represent a break from the strictly defensive stance maintained by Japan in the decades since the war, under which it would fight only if directly attacked. Critics, including a majority of Japanese constitutional specialists, say the legislation violates the country’s postwar charter, which renounces war.
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Mr. Abe has presented the package as an unavoidable response to new threats facing Japan, in particular the growing military power of China. He seized on the murder of two Japanese hostages by the Islamic State militant group in January as an example of why Japan needs to loosen restrictions on its military, suggesting that the military might have rescued them had it been free to act.

“These laws are absolutely necessary because the security situation surrounding Japan is growing more severe,” he said after the vote on Thursday.

China condemned passage of the bills, describing them as a potential threat to peace in Asia and invoking the memory of Japan’s wartime aggression.
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Under the legislation, Japan could fight to defend allies, but only when not doing so would threaten “the lives and survival of the Japanese nation.” Mr. Abe’s opponents counter that the criteria are vague.
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The legislation would allow the Japanese military, known as the Self-Defense Forces, to cooperate more closely with United States forces, by providing logistical support and, in certain circumstances, armed backup in international conflicts. It complements guidelines in a bilateral agreement governing how Japanese and United States forces work together, which was signed by the two nations this year.
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The upper house is scheduled to debate the legislation for 60 days, keeping the issue in the public eye and potentially fueling more protests. “There is plenty of time for this newfound appetite for opposition to the Abe government to grow,” Sheila A. Smith, senior fellow for Japan studies at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington, said online.
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psylah

Member
japans-cute-offensive-1428695233.jpg
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LOCKED AND LOADED
 
Goro Majima

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Yeah this doesn't bother me at all. As an American, I'd welcome a stronger Japan to help counter against North Korean and Chinese interests (which is basically what this is addressing I believe).

Also wouldn't mind taking some of the pressure off the US doing so much but we all know that's not going to happen.
 
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Toxi

Banned
The lawmakers acted despite broad public opposition to the legislation, which has set off Japan’s largest demonstrations since the aftermath of the Fukushima nuclear accident four years ago.
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Unsurprisingly, the Japanese public is not keen with the government sending their family members to die on the battlefield with the good ol' US of A.
 
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Savitar

Member
Who are they going to send to fight.

The population is getting older not younger.

They might obliterate an entire generation if they got in a real fight.
 
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lupinko

Member
I've seen a lot of protestors the past few days here.

One old guy had a sign that made go damn, it had the imperial flag as a backdrop for Abe but with a swastika in the sun and Abe Hitlerfied, complete with stache.
 
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genjiZERO

Member
Frankly, I think this is needed in the long run. China is way too aggressive these days and there needs to be a counter balance.
 
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Valkerionseven

Member
Glad to see the Japanese people up and arms about this, they honestly are a bit too complacent with their government and Abe's whole run in office really highlighted that lol. At first I liked Abe cause he was one of the few leaders in Japan that just got shit done without getting bogged down in the nonsense of considering outside nations and what not.... then like a year in it was like "omg he really really is just doing w/e his party wants and no one is saying a damn thing...." Like when he held that nonsense election the other year out of nowhere and used it as a platform for "see see! no one else can do this job!" as if there was time to get a real opponent in the spotlight which is a whole issue in general.

And now were here, hes strong arming another thing through.

I'm on the fence about the whole thing in general myself. Part of me realizes why they are going for it on both the global situation sense and also the hyper right wing party sense. But at the same time the way they are going about it despite the rampant opposition is kinda ridiculous and eventual fuel for future arguments.
 
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RiverBed

Banned
Interesting; so they had sanctions on themselves- since they removed them themselves? I thought they were foreign sanctions imposed on them.

Also, we seriously need an international military with rotational command and UN or UN-like supervision. It's about time to end these global 'skirmishes'.
 
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Servbot #42

Unconfirmed Member
Mocha Nova Coffee Scotia said:
So when will we hear the news that the JDF secretly broke into an Alaska research facility and stole an experimental bomb from the USN
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God dammit i think i may be only person in this forum that would get this. Now if you'll excuse me i'm gonna look for my sister in her research lab, it should be allright.
 
M

massoluk

Banned
This would sound reasonable, but the fact that Nanking massacre denier Abe is the one implementing made me doubted a bit.
 
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_Ryo_

Member
Wait, doesn't their constitution and treaty with the US prevent them from allowing this? I,e partaking in any military activities that do not involve strictly self defense,creating nuclear weapons or buying nuclear weapons, making any nuclear weapon deals.they can refuse to prevent others from making nuclear deals, which is quite controversial really.
Or am I wrong?
 
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Chariot

Member
I wonder if they now get into sending troops against ISIS or if they aim to bark at China's behaviour in the southeastasian sea.
 
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craker

Member
This is just like when he forced the secrets law through the house recently, even though there was a lot of public protest. Basically it gave bureaucrats the power to make anything a secret with very little oversight. Journalists who write about anything declared a secret face 10 years in prison. Of course it automatically made anything related to nuclear power a secret. Which is probably why you almost never hear anything bad about Fukushima in the news over here, even though it's just as dire as it was after the earthquake.

A secret acts, a renewed Military, it's like pre-WWII Showa period all over again...
 
entremet

entremet

Member
_Ryo_ said:
Wait, doesn't their constitution and treaty with the US prevent them from allowing this? I,e partaking in any military activities that do not involve strictly self defense,creating nuclear weapons or buying nuclear weapons, making any nuclear weapon deals.they can refuse to prevent others from making nuclear deals, which is quite controversial really.
Or am I wrong?
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They have the Japanese Self Defense Forces that can only used for peacekeeping missions sanctioned by the UN.
 
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King Gilga

Member
I don't like this but I don't really trust japan.

I can understand them not wanting to have to rely on their american overlords if anything happens though.
 
E

ElectricThunder

Member
craker said:
This is just like when he forced the secrets law through the house recently, even though there was a lot of public protest. Basically it gave bureaucrats the power to make anything a secret with very little oversight. Journalists who write about anything declared a secret face 10 years in prison. Of course it automatically made anything related to nuclear power a secret. Which is probably why you almost never hear anything bad about Fukushima in the news over here, even though it's just as dire as it was after the earthquake.

A secret acts, a renewed Military, it's like pre-WWII Showa period all over again...
Click to expand...

Not a good sign at all especially should that bear out.

I mean, when it seems like your "answer" to every problem is to either suppress from within or eye conflicts from without...
 
4

4Tran

Member
craker said:
This is just like when he forced the secrets law through the house recently, even though there was a lot of public protest. Basically it gave bureaucrats the power to make anything a secret with very little oversight. Journalists who write about anything declared a secret face 10 years in prison. Of course it automatically made anything related to nuclear power a secret. Which is probably why you almost never hear anything bad about Fukushima in the news over here, even though it's just as dire as it was after the earthquake.

A secret acts, a renewed Military, it's like pre-WWII Showa period all over again...
Click to expand...
It's nowhere near that bad yet. We'll know that Showa's back when SDF officers start assassinating politicians and one another. And of course militarism isn't popular in general in Japan.

Moves like this may be prompted by China's growing power in East Asia, but they're primarily designed to boost domestic support for the LDP. Geopolitically, it'll garner Japan a few favors from SE Asian actors like Vietnam and Philippines, and ostensibly supports American policies. However, the eventual effect may be to drive South Korea, Russia, and Taiwan further into the Chinese camp instead. Luckily, none of the actors have any interest in actual military aggression so there's little chance of conflict over this.
 
4

4Tran

Member
King Gilga said:
I don't like this but I don't really trust japan.

I can understand them not wanting to have to rely on their american overlords if anything happens though.
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Japan is eminently trustworthy. They're an eminently rational player in geopolitical politics, and they have very little appetite for engaging in military adventurism. Japan doesn't have any major military allies in the region other than the US, and they're no longer capable of easily defeating China's naval forces. In the event of any conflict, Japan will be incapable of going on the offensive so they're not going to start a shooting war with anyone. The main negative is that their actions can serve to unhinge American plans for the region.

Erheller said:
I can't see this as good news. Abe has done a lot to destabilize Chinese-Japanese relations.
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Yeah, Abe has been pretty bad news for Japan in general.
 
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Fugu

Member
For many reasons I was a big fan of Japan's old (postwar old, not Showa old) military system. Not only did it keep them out of conflict, but it was an excellent foreign policy tool that served as a giant counterbalance to the stream of shit that came out of nearly every one of the war crime denying governments they've formed in the last few decades.

Needless to say, this is a pretty big disappointment and a potentially catastrophic misstep. It's also worth saying that the lack of public support is just embarrassing.
 
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ArchedThunder

Banned
Sectorseven said:
Is putting their youth at more risk the smartest thing for them to be doing, considering the population decline going on?
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Savitar said:
Who are they going to send to fight.

The population is getting older not younger.

They might obliterate an entire generation if they got in a real fight.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think they probably should have gotten their population problem under control before worrying about this. One war could be disastrous for Japan.
 
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ThreePiMatt

Member
I think as time goes on, Japan is going to be an increasingly important ally like Britain is in Europe(was? Not really sure how important the "Special Relationship" is in current times), and Israel in the Middle East. I know there are calls to scale back militarization in Japan as some "show of peace" to the area, but that seems like a lot of pie in the sky thinking. China isn't going to scale back because Japan is.
 
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Palette Swap

Member
Disheartening to see a pacifist country pass this kind of stuff. Symbolically, this rubs me the wrong way.

Mr. Abe has presented the package as an unavoidable response to new threats facing Japan, in particular the growing military power of China. He seized on the murder of two Japanese hostages by the Islamic State militant group in January as an example of why Japan needs to loosen restrictions on its military, suggesting that the military might have rescued them had it been free to act.
Click to expand...
Plus, bullshit rationale. A Japanese army won't somehow curb China's military growth and certainly wouldn't have prevented anything for these two poor guys.
 
D

Delta Assault

Member
Savitar said:
Who are they going to send to fight.

The population is getting older not younger.

They might obliterate an entire generation if they got in a real fight.
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All those young high school kids they always send to fight in their mecha animes. They seem to do a good job of fighting wars while also pleasing the class president.
 
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craker

Member
Mr. Giggles said:
My thoughts as well.

Do Japan have a draft system?
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No draft, and the LDP has gone on record saying that they wouldn't have one. I can actually imagine a lot of SDF members wanting to leave the service, because this is clearly not what they originally signed up for.
 
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superseohyun

Member
Palette Swap said:
Disheartening to see a pacifist country pass this kind of stuff. Symbolically, this rubs me the wrong way.


Plus, bullshit rationale. A Japanese army won't somehow curb China's military growth and certainly wouldn't have prevented anything for these two poor guys.
Click to expand...

USA did manage to get that american hostage out with their troops, right? oh wait....
sad to see east asia will sink into deeper conflict...
 
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