Professor Beef
Banned
You guys...
...seriously...
...made a thread of this.
You do realize that questioning a thread's existence is bannable, right?
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Jaxel- On the big Tournament Organizers in the Fighting Game Community
- Thread starter A Pretty Panda
- Start date
You do realize that questioning a thread's existence is bannable, right?
I still can't fathom how they would pay for the POS vanilla software they are using atm. 0 support (apart from one guy that does 1-2 little tweaks per 3 months). The side still looks like a mess, it's unbearable. I liked the xenfo very much, so props to your work.
Since the downgrade, viewer count must have dropped by a severe amount. Many active forums went ghosttown almost immediately.
I pushed eventhubs the idea to vastly upgrade their forums - it would be a decent place to combine at least the capcom community, since srk.com remains to be a mess for half a year now and it doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon.
Since the downgrade, viewer count must have dropped by a severe amount. Many active forums went ghosttown almost immediately.
I pushed eventhubs the idea to vastly upgrade their forums - it would be a decent place to combine at least the capcom community, since srk.com remains to be a mess for half a year now and it doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Whatever you're linking to is not showing up.
KingofSarus
Banned
Professor Beef
Banned
Make me.
AhmazingArab
Banned
I could see non capcom fighting games dying if esport organizations like MLG start picking up capcom fighting games. Its pretty clear that they are only interested in viewers and making a profit (there is nothing wrong with this obviously). If they pick up capcom games and we see TOs stop hosting events due to not being able to compete with the esport leagues, then what would happen to the fighting game scenes? To my knowledge the most exposure that non capcom fighting games get are usually from majors that feature capcom games as their headliner.
Even If people from those communities start hosting majors for their respective games, it'll be a much smaller scale since the capcom games pretty much bring in the most viewers/entrants/revenue. It won't make sense for most sponsors that want to target the FGC demographic to sponsor these majors when they could just sponsor MLG and get a much better return.
The one thing i'm concerned about with esport leagues picking up capcom games is that the grassroot tournaments might disappear and that this will hurt the non capcom fighting games greatly.
Even If people from those communities start hosting majors for their respective games, it'll be a much smaller scale since the capcom games pretty much bring in the most viewers/entrants/revenue. It won't make sense for most sponsors that want to target the FGC demographic to sponsor these majors when they could just sponsor MLG and get a much better return.
The one thing i'm concerned about with esport leagues picking up capcom games is that the grassroot tournaments might disappear and that this will hurt the non capcom fighting games greatly.
SloaneRisette
Member
Too bad he doesn't have a GAF account.
The games won't die as long as there are people willing to play them. The money might not be there, but 99% of games don't have money in them.
The FGC survived before sponsorship money came in, it would survive after it.
Take Sega Cup: I'm not sure about the Japanese, but every American who showed up to that would have shown up for no prize money knowing it was a national tournament. It's love that drives the smaller games, not money.
I'd say proper online play and the ability to not need a local scene to play your favorite game has done more to support fighting games this gen than anything else. I mean, for VF, if VF didn't have online- I'd have to play Tekken- the nearest comp for VF is 90 miles away. Because I have online play, I don't have to play the mainstream games (though I will sometimes do SF4 PC)
E-sports money is nice, but it isn't necessary.
His comment: a 1000-man marvel tourney, first place would be $7k+ any pot bonus. That's going to be bigger than the 3K from a 400-man tourney. I'm not saying he's lying, but I'm saying his facts aren't Jaxel's facts, Jaxel is probably talking SC, which drew about 400 when it was at Evo, with little to no pot bonus, which would be about a $3k payout.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Pretty sad to hear...I have always been curious about stuff like this.
call_kotaku
Member
Also, esports money comes from a pool that split amongst a lot of different people and is liable to dry up very quickly since investors will 180 harder than Xbox if they don't see the sort of growth potential or ROI that they were promised.
Yes, I actively try to avoid the other thread but find this news very interesting.
Maybe off-topic, but I see people crowding bars to watch the UFC and do not understand how there are barcrafts going on and not bar...fights? Anyway, of all the esports (sorry if the word makes you wanna break something), fighting games feel like the ones that would have the most mainstream appeal.
Here's all the information you need to enjoy a match: this dude is attacking that dude and here are their health bars. My girlfriend watches fighting tournments with me and she never toched one. I had a lot of fun watching Injustice recently and also never touched that game. I almost feel like if the FGC want both to grow and to avoid MLG, they should cook some insane scheme to get directly into the mainstream. I almost feel like that if those deals with Brazzers got through, the FGC would be what it always dreamed.
I don't even know how people who understand starcraft can watch the game in a bar since even knowing the game requires a narrator explaining builds and stuff. Now, everyone in the world can understand positioning and combos, even if lacking knowledge of the details behind it.
How fighting games are not insanely popular to watch, even more than they are to play, is something I just can't grasp.
Here's all the information you need to enjoy a match: this dude is attacking that dude and here are their health bars. My girlfriend watches fighting tournments with me and she never toched one. I had a lot of fun watching Injustice recently and also never touched that game. I almost feel like if the FGC want both to grow and to avoid MLG, they should cook some insane scheme to get directly into the mainstream. I almost feel like that if those deals with Brazzers got through, the FGC would be what it always dreamed.
I don't even know how people who understand starcraft can watch the game in a bar since even knowing the game requires a narrator explaining builds and stuff. Now, everyone in the world can understand positioning and combos, even if lacking knowledge of the details behind it.
How fighting games are not insanely popular to watch, even more than they are to play, is something I just can't grasp.
Passive Assassin
Member
There was a barfights type of event earlier today. But most of the time, bar + streams are usually after parties which are pretty hilarious.
MLG hosts 4 events a year, only in North America. Do you know how many SF/Marvel tournaments happen on a weekly basis worldwide? Grassroots tournaments aren't disappearing anytime soon.
SCV last year at EVO had a pot bonus from Namco Bandai and was paid out to top 8.
What I'm drawing from all of this, based on what I've read, and having been to some of these events and talking to some of these folks.
Jaxel has an axe to grind, I think it's just getting mixed in with some other stuff that may not be true.
3K for a 1000 person bracket, that's not true. It would have to be a $5 game for that to happen. The math is just wrong there, and I seriously doubt the Cannons would dick someone over on that- it would be too easy to get blown up.
I do think Evo is run legitimately. That said, I do think the Cannons protect their turf in regards to e-sports, and I do think they've shown bias over the years against certain games. Maybe there's reason for the bias, but I do think it's hurt the development of some games.
Jaxel's a damn good streamer, and I like a lot of what he does. He's done a lot for his community. Doesn't mean his facts are 100% right.
I do think Jaxel has a point on how he's been dicked over. NEC was a mess last year.
That said, I don't think it's fair to lump the well-run tournaments like Final Round in with the not so well-run tournaments.
Jaxel has an axe to grind, I think it's just getting mixed in with some other stuff that may not be true.
3K for a 1000 person bracket, that's not true. It would have to be a $5 game for that to happen. The math is just wrong there, and I seriously doubt the Cannons would dick someone over on that- it would be too easy to get blown up.
I do think Evo is run legitimately. That said, I do think the Cannons protect their turf in regards to e-sports, and I do think they've shown bias over the years against certain games. Maybe there's reason for the bias, but I do think it's hurt the development of some games.
Jaxel's a damn good streamer, and I like a lot of what he does. He's done a lot for his community. Doesn't mean his facts are 100% right.
I do think Jaxel has a point on how he's been dicked over. NEC was a mess last year.
That said, I don't think it's fair to lump the well-run tournaments like Final Round in with the not so well-run tournaments.
AhmazingArab
Banned
Top players will stop going to those tournaments, if the prize pool at esport tournaments is much higher. Perfect Legend stated before that he wasnt going to attend any major when MLG had MK9. If top players aren't going to majors then there is less incentive for everyone to go to majors since the competition there wouldn't be worth the trip.
Not to mention that the majors would lose out on sponsors big time
Ok, so 4 weekends MLG gets priority. Maybe there's another 5-6 weekends a year where holding tournies isn't viable such as Christmas weekend.
That leaves 42 weekends. There's also smaller tournies besides majors that folks can go to. Most areas have at least monthlies.
Professor Beef
Banned
Don't be cool, just be honest.
But wouldn't having more money in the scene from MLG be beneficial for growth as it gives top players a major incentive to keep practicing and perfecting their skills?
Forgive me if I'm wrong as I'm not very familiar with fgc, I only follow the starcraft 2 scene.
Top players avoiding smaller tournaments may not create a drop in turnouts. If my scene is anything to go by, plenty of players avoid going to tournaments if they know a top player will be there since they don't want to provide rent money for one guy week after week.
MLG getting funding year after year while being in the red and getting $10million in investments late 2010 says otherwise. I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to MLG and "esports" but you're making it sound like the money can just vanish within an instant. It took years before investors and sponsors pulled out of CPL. When ESWC had its problems that was following years of internal issues and obviously it doesn't make sense for them to just publicly announce, from a business perspective, that they may have funding issues for events 1 or 2 years down the line. Historically speaking investors and sponsors haven't just pulled the rug out from underneath everyone.
I guess the tl;dr of what I'm getting at is that typically any time a big gaming event ran out of funding or sponsors, it was a long time coming and wasn't communicated by the event organizers in advance which leads to it looking like everyone abruptly pulled out, There have been cases for sure where that does happen but at least in my experience it's a rare case.
Poltergust
Member
I can understand what he's getting at, but I don't see why being nicer and more accessible is necessarily a bad thing. The community doesn't have to be abrasive or harsh, but it doesn't also have to cater to scrubs either. There are certain standards that should be upheld if anyone wants to take the FGC seriously, but at the same time we shouldn't have to treat anyone like babies.
Basically, there's a middle ground to all of this that would be beneficial to everyone. It doesn't have to fall on complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
Also, that jab at Max seemed needlessly rude. So what if people like him?
call_kotaku
Member
MLG did have to lay off a portion of its staff (including a bunch of content producers) and cut down on the number of events to finally be in the black last year--apparently because of pressure from investors--and IPL did pretty much collapse overnight, but I understand what you're saying. Hyperbole aside the main issue I have is that so much of that "esports money" people covet from the outside isn't actual revenue, it's money they got from investors to build an infrastructure for an industry that has no clear revenue streams and stagnating growth.
The esports renaissance might just be around the corner but I think a lot of people, myself included, are just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
is that true? i don't know much about the market as whole but my impression was that esports numbers are rising a lot lately.
Well IPL folded because during the transition of ownership from News Corp to j2 gobal, j2 didn't want anything to do with IPL or the idea. Right after that blizzard came in and scooped up the production staff for WCS. So that really had nothing to do with the competitive games industry or its state.
I get your points too and I actually agree, especially in regards to growth but competitive gaming as an industry, or whatever you want to call it, isn't something new. Lets say we take Red Annihilation as the starting point of real growth for competitive PC gaming, we're talking 15 years at this stage. If there wasn't a potential there then we wouldn't have gone much further than CPL/ESWC. Now more than ever it's actually viable for competitive gaming as industry to exist, with the somewhat recent surge of streaming and how competitive gaming has become globalized in a lot of ways it's in a far better state now than it ever has been. I feel you though, it's still such a risky area to be in after all this time.
Comparatively pretty much every game sees far more viewership now than it would have done a few years ago. LoL is just a titan in comparison to current games.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
LoL numbers are.
You aren't helping, in fact, you're making it worse.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Fairly sure SC numbers have dropped off, while FGC numbers have slowly but steadily climbed over the years, but I don't follow SC much so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
It's just that if i take a look at twitch for example, i see World of tanks, Dota, Starcraft, Quake, various fighting games ect..
I mean, maybe revenue wise it might stagnate but i have trouble believing viewership numbers aren't up. But maybe i'm wrong, sorry for being off topic.
I mean obviously there's highs a lows depending on what events are going on but it seems like the viewership has been pretty stable. I guess you could look at it as stagnating more than receding but maybe the actual numbers say different.
call_kotaku
Member
Viewership spiked tremendously in 2010/2011 because of the simultaneous release of SC2 and the ascendency of game streaming, but it seems like the market space saturated very quickly. Every event saw record numbers those years but both MLG and GSL cut back for 2012 even though they tried not to address directly in their messaging. It's reached a stable pace but I think the exponential growth from 2010 being unsustainable threw a bunch of people's plans off-course. You don't see viewership numbers being thrown around a lot nowadays outside of LoL, and even those numbers aren't particularly mind-blowing if you consider how heavily they advertise their streams and how large their playerbase is. Even then, they're not building the competitive scene through ad revenue like a ton of people expected back in 2010, because as far as I know Riot basically paid for the whole thing.
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's for these reasons that I love UK events. All our modern TOs are straight up awesome people - the MBA crew, Versus Scotland, the Proving Grounds team, the Dragons, the Birmingham lot, WSO, the folks who run the HOG...
The UK FGC even embraces foreign and eSports events. WorstGiefEVER has run FGC events as part of EGL and Dreamhack, and every Insomnia has a FGC event run by Shin and Sho Dragon. Many London players also get down to Cannes each year, and it's looking like there will be a good UK representation at Lockdown in Portugal this year.
No money in the UK scene at all though.
The UK FGC even embraces foreign and eSports events. WorstGiefEVER has run FGC events as part of EGL and Dreamhack, and every Insomnia has a FGC event run by Shin and Sho Dragon. Many London players also get down to Cannes each year, and it's looking like there will be a good UK representation at Lockdown in Portugal this year.
No money in the UK scene at all though.
Starcraft? Finals regularly get 100k+ viewers. I think it's been rising steadily, but it seems small compared to the explosion of popularity for MOBAs.
Some of the stuff that's supposedly happened in this thread has happened in the UK scene for sure. Some of those awesome people aren't so awesome.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Koogy's point about everyone having an agenda is very true, though. Jaxel can do no more than give his own side of the story, so unless he gets corroborated by other people he is just the lone head above the parapet.
TOs must earn money out of their tournaments, otherwise they would not be run. Making money out of events is easy mode too - you just feed in all the costs, then figure out how much of a cut you want, then ask for that much per head. Run your tournament well, get larger, get better margins. That's not even a bad thing.
If people just made the finances surrounding the events public, there wouldn't be an issue with all of this. Make it public and you can make it fair.
And then we get into the backroom drama. I'm not wearing rose-tinted glasses. I know about the issues with the London scene. But the trend in that scene is positive.
TOs must earn money out of their tournaments, otherwise they would not be run. Making money out of events is easy mode too - you just feed in all the costs, then figure out how much of a cut you want, then ask for that much per head. Run your tournament well, get larger, get better margins. That's not even a bad thing.
If people just made the finances surrounding the events public, there wouldn't be an issue with all of this. Make it public and you can make it fair.
And then we get into the backroom drama. I'm not wearing rose-tinted glasses. I know about the issues with the London scene. But the trend in that scene is positive.
When do they "cry" poverty? They hold it there because it's awesome and fun. They don't cry about it.
They're still doing 70/30/10 at an event that large? That's terrible.
Wow, this is sick. BigE better comment soon because he's looking pretty guilty with that silence.
This is very true for me, I never bothered to learn a fighter before, as much as I loved them, because there was no one to play against other than the computer.
This is very true for me, I never bothered to learn a fighter before, as much as I loved them, because there was no one to play against other than the computer.
I gotta be honest, I don't get some of this.
How do you do massive development work for SRK without 1) a spec, 2) an hourly or flat rate based on said spec, 3) a contract (or some emails, at the very least) detailing deliverables and payment schedules? Even the smallest dev jobs I've done have had that much.
I can't really comment on the streaming, but it still sounds to me like expectations were not communicated. Even when I'm just covering photography for events, a discussion about what my plan is and what the events needs are is always had. No surprises going into it, let alone after the fact.
It really seems to me like just stating outright "If you want X, then I require Y to make it happen" would have prevented a lot of this. Anyone who wants you to do something for them while refusing to provide you what you need to do it -- especially when you apparently know they have the means to -- probably isn't worth your time. Sometimes shit happens, and you have to compromise on the fly, but if you ask for stuff and still do the work when they don't give it to you, what incentive do they have to actually listen to what you want?
How do you do massive development work for SRK without 1) a spec, 2) an hourly or flat rate based on said spec, 3) a contract (or some emails, at the very least) detailing deliverables and payment schedules? Even the smallest dev jobs I've done have had that much.
I can't really comment on the streaming, but it still sounds to me like expectations were not communicated. Even when I'm just covering photography for events, a discussion about what my plan is and what the events needs are is always had. No surprises going into it, let alone after the fact.
It really seems to me like just stating outright "If you want X, then I require Y to make it happen" would have prevented a lot of this. Anyone who wants you to do something for them while refusing to provide you what you need to do it -- especially when you apparently know they have the means to -- probably isn't worth your time. Sometimes shit happens, and you have to compromise on the fly, but if you ask for stuff and still do the work when they don't give it to you, what incentive do they have to actually listen to what you want?
entremet
Member
Thread shitting is bannable, but I guess you know that already.
Nail. Head. Hit.
Chinndog claimed that its expensive to rent out ballrooms in Caesar's Palace, and that is a good reason why the jackpots are so low for the games.
"Cry poverty" is an exaggeration, I admit. But it still seems to me that its putting the cart before the horse. Maybe EVO is the one tournament that can do this, but I would personally tried to grow it to a larger event and making sure the sponsorship money was there instead of starting and holding it at an expensive place like Caesar's Palace, and then claim that because we're renting ballrooms at Caesar's we can't give out bigger jackpots.
That was never stated as the reason why Evo pots are not 20k a head. Evo pays out a lot as it is. It may not seem that way if you're simply fixated on tournaments with giant payouts.
Mike Ross, Gootecks, and Yipes.
Urban Scholar
Member
I wish the best for Jaxel really. Reading this sort of gave me flashbacks to those times spooky spoke of quitting altogether. I wonder....
No surprise on wiz, but damn that's shady shit from big e.
considering the weekly thread is full of marvel talk 80% of the time, yes.
considering the weekly thread is full of marvel talk 80% of the time, yes.