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Jaxel- On the big Tournament Organizers in the Fighting Game Community
- Thread starter A Pretty Panda
- Start date
Chin,
This isn't necessarily correct. EVO has paid out top 8 at least for the past couple of years. I am not sure how the payouts for 5-8 are figured out, but I know that they also receive checks.
Yea that's right.
Other terms/names people might not be familiar with.
SRK: A fairly big site for fighting games but mostly skewered towards Capcom games.
Mr.Wizard: One of the guys who runs EVO every year.
EVO: Evolution tournament, biggest fighting game tournament in the world.
Big E: A TO who runs East Coast tournaments like Winter Brawl.
ECT: East Coast Throwdown, another East Coast tournament run by LI Joe.
NEC/APEX: More East Coast tournaments although APEX is a heavily Smash Bros skewered tournament.
VxG: A fairly new up and coming international tournament that takes place outside the US in the Caribbean at St. Maarten.
Jaxel makes some good points, but I can't get behind him because he paints the coomunity with a wide swath. Yes, there is very little money in the FGC. Yes, the streamers struggle to get paid market rates. Doesn't mean that you should throw everyone under the bus like you just did.
Can't get behind him bashing Big E and Cen, especially Henry Cen, who has done as much to keep the Northeast Community afloat..just like he has. I'm pretty sure noone in their right might would get behind bashing Henry Cen either.
Also, when he puts MLG in a better light than most FGC tourneys I have to laugh too, considering I worked for them for a whole year and know how their operation work. Yes, they do pay more money than every standard FGC tournament, and I do like that part, considering I'm a player. However, the FG side is secondary to the actual MLG event (for obvious reasons), and there is a lot of red tape I had to go through since I'm working with a company. Basically, no tournament is perfect.
In short:
1) I respect Jaxel's grievences, but
2) putting them on blast in public is not the right way to do it: of course Jaxel feels like he has nothing to lose anymore, which is fine, I've done that too, But why take down the whole community with you? I don't disagree with everything he says, but there are major issues I take point with. However, it's presented in such a he said she said way that I can't just take your word at face value
3) streamers should definitely be paid more (closer to fair market value if anything -) I know most of the rates, and basically..unless youre huge, youll be lucky if you can break even on expenses. TO's need to do a better job of integrating the sponsor package into the whole tournament itself. Not putting anyone on blast in particular but as a whole we are underdeveloped
4) id much rather put twitchtv on blast than put the TO's on blast, considering its been 2 years since their inception, still dont pay on time. still waiting for my april revenue - they changed their payout system to every 45 days, even though you guys pay them every 30 day billing cycle.) Mid June we were supposed to be paid for April revenue, Sent us a email last week that the ETA for payment was friday (after they had already missed it.) Then they email us this friday, saying that the payment is coming early next week (this week.) lol. and cites "adminstrative issues" as the reasons for not paying, meanwhile they have open bars and lavishily spending at e3 etc etc
meanwhile the people i talk with at e3 and at every industry event say twitch is a growing profitable company, yet they cant pay their partners on time, ever. lol. still havent bought my evo ticket because of this nonsense either, it's not like its a bad anount too, since it was around the time when i had exclusive access to injustice.
wish i could cite "adminstrative issues" whenever the bill collector comes, stop killing esports
Can't get behind him bashing Big E and Cen, especially Henry Cen, who has done as much to keep the Northeast Community afloat..just like he has. I'm pretty sure noone in their right might would get behind bashing Henry Cen either.
Also, when he puts MLG in a better light than most FGC tourneys I have to laugh too, considering I worked for them for a whole year and know how their operation work. Yes, they do pay more money than every standard FGC tournament, and I do like that part, considering I'm a player. However, the FG side is secondary to the actual MLG event (for obvious reasons), and there is a lot of red tape I had to go through since I'm working with a company. Basically, no tournament is perfect.
In short:
1) I respect Jaxel's grievences, but
2) putting them on blast in public is not the right way to do it: of course Jaxel feels like he has nothing to lose anymore, which is fine, I've done that too, But why take down the whole community with you? I don't disagree with everything he says, but there are major issues I take point with. However, it's presented in such a he said she said way that I can't just take your word at face value
3) streamers should definitely be paid more (closer to fair market value if anything -) I know most of the rates, and basically..unless youre huge, youll be lucky if you can break even on expenses. TO's need to do a better job of integrating the sponsor package into the whole tournament itself. Not putting anyone on blast in particular but as a whole we are underdeveloped
4) id much rather put twitchtv on blast than put the TO's on blast, considering its been 2 years since their inception, still dont pay on time. still waiting for my april revenue - they changed their payout system to every 45 days, even though you guys pay them every 30 day billing cycle.) Mid June we were supposed to be paid for April revenue, Sent us a email last week that the ETA for payment was friday (after they had already missed it.) Then they email us this friday, saying that the payment is coming early next week (this week.) lol. and cites "adminstrative issues" as the reasons for not paying, meanwhile they have open bars and lavishily spending at e3 etc etc
meanwhile the people i talk with at e3 and at every industry event say twitch is a growing profitable company, yet they cant pay their partners on time, ever. lol. still havent bought my evo ticket because of this nonsense either, it's not like its a bad anount too, since it was around the time when i had exclusive access to injustice.
wish i could cite "adminstrative issues" whenever the bill collector comes, stop killing esports
Shouta
Member
Because the FGC is still running on a buddy-buddy mentality when it comes to business. A lot of folks do things for the community to make it better without worrying about those kinds of details as it still can be rough in some areas.
That's a failing on Jaxel's part. As part of being a professional, you need to handle your business as a professional. Jobs need to be set on paper and agreed upon. Small money is one thing but if it's how you make your living, then you gotta treat it on another level. However, that doesn't excuse him not getting paid for his work if it's true. Considering the sorry state the new SRK forums launched in and Jaxel's general skill with his own stuff and the Multiviewer, I'm inclined to believe him despite any failings on his part.
SRK has been shit and badly run for AGES. I don't see how that's new news. As for Evo, I dunno there. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
As a whole, I feel bad for Jaxel for the managers treating him like shit while he's trying to foster the community. But at the same time, that's the nature of the community and the only way the community is going to improve is if the "grassroots" mentality is stamped out and things go "pro." But shock and horror, some in the community think going professional like Starcraft is a bad thing.
As a whole, I feel bad for Jaxel for the managers treating him like shit while he's trying to foster the community. But at the same time, that's the nature of the community and the only way the community is going to improve is if the "grassroots" mentality is stamped out and things go "pro." But shock and horror, some in the community think going professional like Starcraft is a bad thing.
He isn't targeting everyone. Just the biggest tournament organizers who leech off of the community.
Tournament organizers aren't the community. So don't disregard his points because he is slamming the 1%
"Going pro" is not the solution. The solution ought to be transparency, and for people to support events that clearly do things right (UFGT, CEO, etc.).
I can't say anything about Big E or Cen or anything, but I've never heard anything but positive things from people closely involved with them, so this all seems like sort of blowing people up out of spite. :\
Stuff like this paints the whole community in a bad light, 1 step forward, 2 steps backward, especially when a lot of it is hearsay and his own personal opinion even if there are some points that are true. So yeah, it affects the community as a whole. Do you think I want people to stop attending events? No, I don't. I don't agree with how every event is ran, but I'm not gonna blow up the whole community either especially when everyone is in this together.
I'm mostly disillusioned at how he called out Henry Cen considering he's put 15+ years into the Northeast FGC; hell, I grew up with that guy, saw the struggles of him being a manager at Chinatown Fair, with the struggles he has now at next level - it's a tough business to be in for sure. Just like I wouldn't talk shit about Chris Cotty, the owner of the Break, because he's been there, and supported the community from the beginning.
Duxxy3
Member
That is a great idea, I should try it.
I agree with the first part. The second part, all I can go by is how the tourney is run and my interactions with the people involved. Jaxel has always seemed knowledgeable to me on his stuff, and NEC was not well run at all, with the KOF and Tekken players both complaining.
Both FR and NEC suffered from undersized venues, but NEC"s problems were worse.
I have worries about TFC due to Big E's involvement. I just hope real authority around TFC relies with Shinblanka, he knows his shit and does it well.
If what he says about Big E is true then he deserves to feel the way he does and call him out on what he did.
The Henry Cen thing does sound like jaxel is a bit bitter that Big Two blew up while 8 on the break lost viewers and attendance but I guess he can feel how he feels on that.
Shouta
Member
Here's the thing though, Art. If what Jaxel said is true about his conduct in general and what has occurred, then it's something that should be put out there. It seems like he's tried to handle it behind the scenes and that's only gotten him screwed over and over. It just finally hit a boiling point where something behind the scenes costed him a lot. If it's not working there then gotta take it to somewhere where it'll be heard.
I understand your point about handling business privately but it's just not been working for him and often, it's been a sticking point for the community in general. Being more open and transparent with what kind of business is going behind the scenes only serves to make it better. There's no room to complain when we can see what one is going into it. That's not to say that everything should be done publicly but people need to be more forthcoming with information to say "Hey, this is what happened and here's why I can or can't do this."
Besides, as other folks have stated, Jaxel is talking about the big event organizers, not the community at large. I'm pretty sure he knows that many TOs don't make much or fail to break even but the larger ones aren't in the same situation.
As for your point on twitch, I'd definitely agree. That shit needs to be talked about more because they're basically screwing you streamers out of revenue and no one really gives a shit. That's a huge issue that doesn't get discussed like it should. It's also something that should be talked about more readily and open but I can understand the apprehension as there aren't too many solutions other than twitch and even fewer that stream monsters will like and continue using.
He's slamming select individuals then roping them in with all the other TOs as if they're all the same. This is not true and a terrible generalization. In fact, a few people are stepping forward refuting or correcting some of his claims.
Don't always take a single person's statements as gospel. There's a lot more to this that many of you don't know/won't know because honestly it shouldn't be out here just for more stream monsters to eat up. These are grievances of an individual that a few of you are trying to blow up into some sort of great conspiracy. This is why when you say "tell us" most of us don't blow it up here. Unfortunately GAF has a tendency to create a whirlwind of hyperbole and taking single opinions/statements as facts. That was my problem with creating this thread and why I said what I said on twitter. Its just throwing something on the front page without any real vetting or confirmation of the accuracy of statements made.
This guy is actually on Evo staff, by the way. He knows what he's talking about.
I've always been willing to answer questions people have about UFGT (a major fighting game tournament that took place last month in Chicago for those that don't know). Basically, (1) we do run our event on time. (2) We do try to have more things for casual players to do at our event, like the fun & games area and auction tournaments. And (3) we don't make much money off our event, partially because we run on time and we try to have more things for casual players to do.
If you want a very good explanation about why esports and the fighting game community are more dissimilar that you might think, Ultradavid wrote this piece back in December 2011: http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/gue...pective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/
Most tournament organizers (not Mr Wizard) have gone on record to say they barely make minimum wage off of the time they spent organizing the tournament. A couple of thousand bucks (after all the expenses have been taken care of) in pocket is not a "killing" especially for the work involved.
Unless of course they were lying. Would like a TO perspective on the economics behind this because I have a hard time imagining someone like Big E making 30 grand off of a single tourney.
Unless of course they were lying. Would like a TO perspective on the economics behind this because I have a hard time imagining someone like Big E making 30 grand off of a single tourney.
While I agree with you that Jaxel shouldn't be slamming all the TO's when his real beef is with BigEit doesn't mean that there isn't a legit gripe here, especially with BigE and NEC/Summer/Winter Jam.
I do know this stuff being out here makes me not want to hit his events in future. If I was to travel for a tourney, it would be UFGT because of what was posted, I really like how they do things- but it's on a terrible weekend for me.
As long as we don't know the money, and even if they open the books, we won't know for sure- because folks might lie, we have to make our own judgement. Personally, I don't think Big E makes big bucks off of NEC, but I'm sure he makes something, if only as a buffer to fund the next year. I'm more inclined to believe the Cannons make bigger bucks off of Evo- they're hitting Vegas for a reason. If money was a big issue they'd pick somewhere cheaper. That said, I could be wrong- I don't know for certain, I have to go with my gut and my knowledge of the people involved and how honest I think they are.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
First, there's no switch that allows the community to "go pro."
Second, it's not smart to go all in. There are no fighting games on the horizon that will attract the mass of viewers. TOs and streamers would be idiots to drain their bank accounts making a giant production out of it. The grass roots approach is actually sustainable and if there's a sudden drop in interest in fighting games, it can keep on going like it has. If they go all in and there's a drop in interest, that's a "shit hits the fan" situation. The Capcom competitive side grew 1000000% when SF4 came out. MVC3 kept it going. UMVC3 is basically the big draw until the foreseeable future. Unless SF5 is announced sometime soon, it would not be a good move to try to invest a ton of money into making things seem "pro."
Other communities have tons of sponsorship and major support from the developers/publishers. They have giant fan bases with ridiculous viewer counts. Fighting games are dwarfed by them to the Nth power, which is a point that Twitch staff and Esports guys miss when they say dumb crap like "If FGC just did XYZ, it would be huge." The fact is that the games don't sell 5 million plus copies (except SF mainline), the developer support is barely there, and at this point, the 2009 boom is starting to wind down in many ways. Things are steady but it's not like there's a surplus of cash at all.
And that's why people need to cut it with the "go professional" nonsense.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
wow
dunno wat to say
dunno wat to say
Shouta
Member
Right. Some of this money talk can be shut down straight up but showing off expenses for an event. That gives you undeniable proof (with supporting documents for each line item) of how much it cost to run the event. No one can say anything when that's out there. However, I understand why folks wouldn't want to show that kind of stuff as it puts them under more scrutiny should their spending be a bit frivolous or unnecessary.
So if folks don't want to offer it up then it's just he says/she says.
If Jaxel is lying then say so and prove how. Otherwise you're doing the same thing you're accusing Gaf of. Also OP doesn't present a lot of things as fact only the situation with Big E which you probably don't know shit about to say which is which
Pretty sure we've been through more real shit (re: streaming) than he's ever been since he ever started. I mean shit, Team Spooky was nearly a few weeks away from being homeless a few years back, due to going all in on streaming.)
Nothing will change and I'm sure this drama will be blown over in a week. My issue is that he is blowing it up to people who by far and large disconnected from the whole scene: not in the sense that they don't support (b/c they do by watching streams,) but in the sense that he's going ham on a audience that by far and large is not at the actual events. At the end of the day, if you want to have a popping stream, you have to have the community by far and large show up to these events. I feel like with posts like these, he is only hurting his cause, and the community as a whole. I would have went about it completely different.
It's not like it's a huge mystery to figure out the costs for running a event - it just takes some detective work, making some calls, asking around doing legwork, negotiating etc.
Also Shouta, it's okay, I will always be critical of Twitch until the very end.
BTW, here's a podcast from IPW that has Sweet Johnny Cage on it, who ran ECT.
Should be useful for people that want to hear the economics of a tourney from a TO's perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvieKHnwBg8
Parallax Scroll
Banned
IIRC, twitch temporarily revoked Level Up's subscriber option and got Aris banned from commentary after Aris complained about twitch being late with their payment to Level Up.
The one thing I think Jaxel is caught on was the 3K for a 1000-man event. Viscant and math prove Jaxel wrong there.
I'm not sure if you're expecting people's bank statements to be posted or what, but there's enough back and forth here to show the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as it usually is.
This thread came up as a spur of the moment thing without much thought into actually making it razor sharp, which is what it should be. Instead, you've got a thread title putting every TO on blast and Jaxel's unedited/unrefined first draft story on it.
Not to say the core of it isn't true or shouldn't be out there, but some of you are very gullible if you're just taking what he says as 100% gospel.
and now, for putting Henry Cen on blast.
Shouta
Member
Well, err do you mean going ham for an audience that isn't at the events? 'cause I'm sure he's not going ham on them as he hasn't said much or anything about the stream monsters. He did make Yo Kappa and the awesome multiviewer for us so I'm sure Jaxel loves him his stream monsters.
I'm sure there are crazier things that are more serious from a community perspective, no doubt. This is more of a personal issue he has that he wanted to bring to light. I'm really certain he's not putting all TOs on blast, so it's just a matter of scope of the discussion. Because Jaxel does a lot of stuff for the community by being a streamer and doing more beyond that and he loves the folks that he interacts with. So I don't think he'd try and alienate them outright.
Also, we need to play some SFxT at Evo man! You haven't been on the PS3 or the IRC channel much.
Jaxel will have to clarify himself on that. I assumed pot bonus but I don't know if that's what he meant. 3k for first place in a 1000-man event is missing a few thousand bucks though with the other payouts factored in.
What a ridiculous notion. You might be correct to say that TO's represent a small number in the community, but to suggest they aren't a part of the FGC is an awful thing to say. What makes you a part of the FGC?
Every organizer, whether it was a volunteer, streamer, or TO is a FG player. To put guys like Valle in the same light as John Nelson who ran ReveLAtions tournament is messed up. If you've never been to a legitimately BAD tournament, then you have no right to crap on legitimate ones.
Get your asses to EVO and remind yourself of what the FGC is about.
I'm honestly not seeing that here. People just want to hear the going ons from both sides
I'm not asking for banks statements to be posted however we are starting to see how transparency is starting to become more essential for this community and streaming shouldn't be for charity. I take issue with Chindog's attitude through out this thread as he's been very condescending for seemingly no reason.
SteveWinwood
Member
As soon as money gets involved there will always be scumbags. It sucks, but the best you can do is try to remove them or at the very least minimize their impact on the community as a whole.
There are good people in the fgc and it's unfortunate that some of them have been taken advantage of. I hope it gets better sooner rather than later. If that means people have to voice their opinions/cause "internet drama"/even persue legal repercussions so be it.
Granted it would be good to hear more about the situation as a whole, but I don't find any of the accusations terribly unlikely or even surprising so I'm inclined to believe him.
There are good people in the fgc and it's unfortunate that some of them have been taken advantage of. I hope it gets better sooner rather than later. If that means people have to voice their opinions/cause "internet drama"/even persue legal repercussions so be it.
Granted it would be good to hear more about the situation as a whole, but I don't find any of the accusations terribly unlikely or even surprising so I'm inclined to believe him.
What.
I'm not sensing that...
okie doke, throwing up my hands now.
i guess i'll check back to see if anyone other than uninvolved gaffers respond to what this thread was actually about.
You're not asking for bank statements, yet this is what I'm taking this thread to task for and its considered as condescending?
All these issues regarding money comes down to this little fact, and it's one that has been uttered by nycfurby and Jaxel: there's little money in the FGC. The money is in the event itself and it's something you actually don't see through the lens of a camera if you're stream monstering it. It's in the cost of venue, the badges players get to wear, the setups for tournament play and etc..
Your whole argument with Panda and your comments about this community on GAF in this thread on the fighting game weekly thread strike me as such. I agree with some points you actually made here however.
Shouta
Member
Thread title says big TO. Not all TOs are big, only a small number of them, so he can't be calling all of them out.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Pasting everything Viscant has had to say on twitter about this since the thread started. If anyone is unfamiliar with Viscant, he was the Evo 2011 champion for Marvel vs Capcom 3.
When i said $3k, I was NOT in any way accusing EVO/SRK of misappropriated funds. I was simply making a point about how MLG payouts are far greater than that of the FGC. As I've also said before, the $3K number is only hearsay. The number itself is not important, only that its far less than what MLG was offering, and every 3 months instead of once a year. Even if the EVO first place payout was $6k, the argument remains the same. People are arguing the $3K number because they can't argue the real point of what I was saying.
My issue with Panda is exactly what I stated. He took one person's personal testimony without any actual vetting/research and made this thread with the title basically covering every major TO. Same with the weekly. I love the majority of you guys and your activity, but there are times when certain gossips are stated as facts or conspiracy theories. A lot of you are on the outside looking into the community from a viewer's perspective when there's a lot going on behind the scenes. My issue is when some of you (not all or even the majority) take someone's statements at face value then holds them as fact without having all the information. It's kinda ironic how we call for journalistic integrity on this forum, yet members are so quick to "report" things as if they were true.
All I'm asking for is a little more skepticism and investigation when it comes to posting rumors and gossip. I'll admit I have a disdain for many stream monsters just because they're all about perpetuating needless drama. Perhaps some of that disdain unfairly leaks here just because I'm tired of all the tearing of each other down and conspiracy theories. I just want the scene to grow in a constructive way. This thread so far really hasn't made any efforts to do that. It's just a he said/she said watercooler gossip thread.
I see what you're saying but it's unfair to attribute that to every individual who posts on NeoGaf. We are definitely not some hive mind who all share the same thoughts and beliefs with one another. And we definitely aren't an extension of stream chats. Like some posters here on Gaf are quick to call out ridiculous statements from triforce, fanatiq when he tried to shit on kiets and UFGT, and the like when they're spouting mess. I definitely don't see everyone take everything these men say as gospel and it's no different with Jaxel. The reason why this thread is 5 pages long because of such discussion and us getting to the truth of the matter. As said many times Panda didn't commit to anything being presented as a fact in OP. Thread title also reads "On the big Tournament Organizers in the Fighting Game Community" which hardly has any inherent negative connotations and is what it is. If you think Jaxel had no right to say what he said at all here because of the nature of registering for a neogaf account then I vehemently disagree with you on that. It honestly started to seem like you resent the forum because of such as many FGC members already seem to do.
I agree with your latter points. No argument from me there.
This is veering slightly off topic
Profitability comes down to venue as Chindogg is saying. The tourney will live and die by how much it has to pay for the venue.
That and equipment, but a lot of the systems are player systems they bring and over half the TVs were shitty CRT's that you can get for $20 to $35 a pop at Goodwill.
All someone has to / should do is call up the Sheraton Suites at the airport in Philly and ask how much the ballrooms are if you get x amount of rooms.
I was thinking of doing the same (to run a tourney, I could care less about how much Big E does or does not make), but it should be easy to talk to a sales guy there.
That and equipment, but a lot of the systems are player systems they bring and over half the TVs were shitty CRT's that you can get for $20 to $35 a pop at Goodwill.
All someone has to / should do is call up the Sheraton Suites at the airport in Philly and ask how much the ballrooms are if you get x amount of rooms.
I was thinking of doing the same (to run a tourney, I could care less about how much Big E does or does not make), but it should be easy to talk to a sales guy there.
biosnake20
Member
So the moral of the story is "everyone has an agenda".
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Nothing in the OP is presented as a fact. I am not a journalist, I am not presenting this thread as a grand journalistic piece, I do not get paid to do this.
Your expectations of "journalistic integrity" from this site are Justin McElroy levels of ridiculous.
Please, by all means, continue to whine about the thread. I encourage it.
I think the problem is that many people were quick to get upset and quickly forgetting the FGC is pretty good sometimes.
[QUOTE="@JayViscant]The whole problem is Jaxel is doing "Fox News" reporting. He's posting stuff he knows is untrue in an arena where he can't get called out.



By the time the truth comes out, people will remember the initial (false) claims and not remember when it was proved wrong. Propaganda 101.[/QUOTE]
Huw_Dawson
Member
And so the Jaxel backpedaling begins.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I think it would have helped if you had added in the OP that this info was posted in another thread, and that since Jaxel can't make his own threads yet you posted it for him. It can help the discussion if you make it easier for people not to reach the wrong conclusion (that this represents your own opinion or that you are stating it as fact).