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Jeremy Corbyn to 'order MPs to vote for Article 50'

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kirblar

Member
Because they threaten their centrist beliefs. Don't act like it's about anything else, as if economic leftism can't be politically successful. Centrist and leftist are ideological opponents.

Anyway it's a shit situation all around. I'd abstain from voting.
Reading a goddamn economics textbook isn't a "centrist" belief. It's understanding how the world functions in the modern age instead of relying on religious dogma.

Mainstream economics is not about ideology anymore. If you think that's how it works and that no one "really" knows what's going on, you're living about 30-40 years in the past.
 

Ephidel

Member
The majority wanted Brexit (Source: Brexit referendum results)
Brexit is not a thing the majority wanted.

It's something the majority of voters chose to vote for.

I'm playing semantics, but the semantics do actually make a slight difference.

There were a load of people who didn't bother to vote. They were apathetic towards the result, but that doesn't make it something they wanted.
There were a load of people who voted for it as a protest vote because they were sick of not being heard. They didn't necessarily want Brexit, they were just pissed off. That was spectacularly short sighted, of course, because their vote has given even more power to the people who've been ignoring them all along.
There were also people who voted not realising the route the government would then take towards Brexit. Some of those people find the current approach to Brexit terrifying enough that they'd vote against it now.

There were also a load of people who voted for it because they were completely misinformed. Unfortunately most of them are still misinformed, so yes, it is still something they want.

The whole idea of Brexit, the pros, cons, and all, were stupendously misrepresented during the whole campaign.
A lot of people thought they were voting to fund the NHS instead of Europe and had no idea the whole idea of that happening was bullshit.
A lot of people didn't realise how much the EU actually supported their area: see the moments Cornwall and Wales realised they'd voted against the funding that had been keeping them going.
A lot of people thought they were voting for less immigrants. That... well, that is what it is.

The thing is, at no point during the lead up to the referendum did EITHER side actually try and lay out what would/could happen after the fact, from either perspective. They couldn't, because they didn't know. Nobody, not the politicians or the people voting, really knew what leaving or the process of leaving might actually entail.
That's why they didn't try to win people over with a big plan to prove how great it would be. That's why they went for lies and hatred instead.

It wasn't all the fault of the leave campaign either (though they did lie through their teeth, promote hatred and fear, and make far, far better use of the media). Just as much damage was done by the fact the stay campaign were completely fucking useless and failed to point out the bullshit, counter the lies, or tell people why being Europe could/should matter to them. They didn't have an ounce of charisma either.

Now I'm not going to say that if another vote were held today then all those apathetic voters would get up and do it (though some might) or that people would vote differently. Some would, as there are a documented accounts of voter's remorse, but a lot probably wouldn't.
A lot of the leavers still don't realise how much of the campaign was lies. A lot of them still don't understand what we get out of being in Europe, or why the single market is important, or that people have been lying to them about things being Europe's fault for years.
They believe the media when they tell us we're in a position of power because the EU needs up more than we need them.
They believe May when she says she can make us a global power. They believe her when she says the moment we're out we'll be drowning in other trade deals and they have no idea how difficult it might be to get them or just what else might end up being bargained away in exchange.
And yes, some of them really do just hate the idea immigrants taking their homes and jobs so much that they're willing to throw absolutely everything away to get rid of them.

A lot of people voted for Brexit. A lot of people wanted it. A lot of them probably still do.

Yes, a slim majority of people voted for it.

But it wasn't the majority of the population. Just the majority of voters.

But you know, never mind. The rest of us don't matter anyway. That's what they keep telling us after all.

What's with these posts, did people really want Labour to defy the referendum result and vote against triggering article 50?
Well, yes, actually.

Or I at least want them to be able to have the choice to vote for themselves and their constituents instead of being told the party line is now to join the Tories in trying to throw everyone under the gaudy red NHS bus.

The referendum was meant to show what the British people want. What it showed was not that they have the British people's support. What it showed was that the British people are deeply divided and have some pretty serious issues that need addressing.
What it didn't do was provide them with a clear majority or give either side the sort of support they would need to proceed, particularly with someone with drastic country changing consequences.
Instead it showed it was a pretty even split and therefore what we do going forward needs one hell of a lot of thought. The more logical choice would have been to admit people are deeply, deeply unhappy with the status quo but that it's best to stick with it until you manage to work out what the hell just happened and what the best way to proceed is. Maybe you even consider another referundum after both sides have had a chance to re-evaluate and try to make a better case. Going 'meh, it's about even, let's go with the drastic country changing consequences!' is just horrifyingly short sighted.

But the latter is what they've done, so going from there:

48% of the voters don't want this shit. 48%!
That's a LOT OF people and SOMEONE should feel obligated to stand up for them. The party that would traditionally be "the opposition" would at least be a reasonable suggestion.

At the very least, though, if Labour do want to support Brexit, they should point out that a load of the stuff the Tories are doing is hot air and try to put some pressure on them to safeguard Labour interests in the negotiations rather than just letting May and her cronies run with whatever lack-of-plan they're still forging ahead with completely unopposed.
 

Abelard

Member
"asses handed to them Clinton style" would actually be winning by 2% and be a huge improvement on where Corbyn is polling.

The point is Clinton had an almost unlovable election and still lost. The apt analogy would be if say Tony Blair lost to UKIP. That's how bad Clinton's loss was, not necessarily because she lost the electoral college, but because of how she bungled an easy election. Even if they won by a sliver it would have still looked bad, because of how hated the opposition is.
 

kirblar

Member
The point is Clinton had an almost unlovable election and still lost. The apt analogy would be if say Tony Blair lost to UKIP. That's how bad Clinton's loss was, not necessarily because she lost the electoral college, but because of how she bungled an easy election. Even if they won by a sliver it would have still looked bad, because of how hated the opposition is.
They lost by tiny margins in a few states while winning the popular vote by over 2%.

In a proportional parliamentary election, that's a win.

Clinton's loss was not "bad"- they picked up seats! They just managed to completely screw up the basics because they went too top-down.
 

Jezbollah

Member
I'm not a fan of Corbyn or his crew at all, but honestly here I don't see what alternative he had. Given that over 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave put him in this position.

He really needs to get whatever might and sway he still has in his party to get behind Keir Starmer and try and hold this government to account or everything they do or do not negotiate.
 
The point is Clinton had an almost unlovable election and still lost. The apt analogy would be if say Tony Blair lost to UKIP. That's how bad Clinton's loss was, not necessarily because she lost the electoral college, but because of how she bungled an easy election. Even if they won by a sliver it would have still looked bad, because of how hated the opposition is.

Yeah, it was a super easy election, just like Brexit, or just like any other fucking right wing populist.

Maybe -- just maybe -- defeating right wing populists is a little harder than we all thought!!!
 

Abelard

Member
They lost by tiny margins in a few states while winning the popular vote by over 2%.

In a proportional parliamentary election, that's a win.

Clinton's loss was not "bad"- they picked up seats! They just managed to completely screw up the basics because they went too top-down.

Popular vote does not matter in the federal parliamentary system either. If we are to equate seats with say EC constituents, Clinton lost badly. Trump would still be a majority leader in that case.
 

hohoXD123

Member
The referendum result does not give the Government carte blanche to do whatever it likes, the opposition should keep them honest and make sure whatever deal they get for Brexit is the best for the people. We are leaving the single market and Labour are simply bending over.

And the referendum result was never binding and it was incredibly close which no one seems to want to point out.

The government isn't being allowed to do whatever it likes. Parliament can still debate on aspects of the brexit negotiations.

I hate brexit as much as the next guy, but using excuses such as the results being too close or that it was never binding is like sticking your head in the sand, it's going ahead whether we like it or not.
 

tuxfool

Banned
I'm not a fan of Corbyn or his crew at all, but honestly here I don't see what alternative he had. Given that over 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave put him in this position.

He really needs to get whatever might and sway he still has in his party to get behind Keir Starmer and try and hold this government to account or everything they do or do not negotiate.

You know how you hold government to account? By not kowtowing to their party line. You insert conditions and state your concerns before they get your support. That is what an effective opposition party does. A little clarity on the matter would be good for everybody.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Yeah, it was a super easy election, just like Brexit, or just like any other fucking right wing populist.

Maybe -- just maybe -- defeating right wing populists is a little harder than we all thought!!!

TBF though, under a lot of democracies she would have won and she lost by the slimmest of margins. It was far from some unwinnable election. in fact literally everything went right for Trump for him to even win the way that he did.
 

kirblar

Member
Yeah, it was a super easy election, just like Brexit, or just like any other fucking right wing populist.

Maybe -- just maybe -- defeating right wing populists is a little harder than we all thought!!!
It goes back to the '08 financial crisis. Right wing populism's a direct response to it (people as a whole are not good at understanding economic cause/effect!) - they found it peaks ~10 years after a financial crisis, it's just that the west had not really had one for a very long time.
 
TBF though, under a lot of democracies she would have won and she lost by the slimmest of margins. It was far from some unwinnable election. in fact literally everything went right for Trump for him to even win the way that he did.

Sure, but I'm pretty tired of people underestimating right wing populists and that these are completely winnable elections. Even Obama acts as if he would've walked all over Trump. He probably would've won. It would not have been as easy as he anticipated.
 

tuxfool

Banned
TBF though, under a lot of democracies she would have won and she lost by the slimmest of margins. It was far from some unwinnable election. in fact literally everything went right for Trump for him to even win the way that he did.

This is a nonsense statement. There is no way one can say that unconditionally.

Either way this seems like OT.
 

Abelard

Member
Obama also would have lost badly in 2012 if they were equate seats with EC constituents!

Please don't tell me you are equating Mitt with Trump, because if Romney did win we would all go back to our lives the next day and say "oh, okay". I wouldn't have minded Romney as president even though I disagree with him on virtually everything, I wouldn't say he's not my president as people do with Trump.

But Trump? He is quite literally the most hated man in America. So it really speaks to how bad Clinton must have been in campaigning and as a candidate in order to lose so bad.
 
Please don't tell me you are equating Mitt with Trump, because if Romney did win we would all go back to our lives the next day and say "oh, okay". I wouldn't have minded Romney as president even though I dishier with him on virtually everything, I wouldn't say he's not my president as people do with Trump.

But Trump? He is quite literally the most hated man in America. So it really speaks to how bad Clinton must have been in campaigning and as a candidate in order to lose so bad.

This is now off topic and you didn't -- at all -- respond to the point I made.
 

Cromat

Member
"The people have spoken" is the dumbest thing ever. By that logic he should become a Tory since the people have spoken in 2015 as well.
 
Opoosition to what?
The vote of the british public?

Wait...Was Brexit a Labuor vs vTorie thing, or did MP's (and people) have differing views accross the parties??

If YouGov is correct then single market Brexit/no Brexit has a majority. We can assume that "no Brexit" would be fine with the single market membership. And yeah, all parties were for staying and most parliamentarians are still pro-EU but this division crossed party lines. Most people advocating leave are your hardline libertarian right winger types though.

Leaving the EU is guaranteed to not live up to all the amazing shit May is promising. Throughout history all big promises like that have largely not been met.
 
Shitting on Labour and Jeremy Corbyn is the k00l tang.

Not that the party has any other viable candidates for leadership. Owen Smith had the charisma of a chair and any of the neoliberal candidates.... well they would getting their asses handed to them Clinton style.

I'd take Owen Smith right now over this cunt.

He's only interested in remaining in opposition, he doesn't have the desire or drive to really challenge the government and try to win in 2020. He's happy collecting his cheque, having a bit of fun at PMQ's and then doing fuck all for the rest of the parliament.

The worst kind of cunt. Some people live too long, this is one prime example of that.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not his cheerleader, but I'm not really sure what the alternative was. Right now, if Labour backed Remain and there was a snap election, it would be an absolute bloodbath - over 80% of Labour seats outside London voted Leave, and functionally challenging the electorate to make judgements on Labour Leave/Remain orientated would guarantee a 400-seat Conservative majority. I hate it, but it is what it is.
 

kirblar

Member
I'm not his cheerleader, but I'm not really sure what the alternative was. Right now, if Labour backed Remain and there was a snap election, it would be an absolute bloodbath - over 80% of Labour seats outside London voted Leave, and functionally challenging the electorate to make judgements on Labour Leave/Remain orientated would guarantee a 400-seat Conservative majority. I hate it, but it is what it is.
He's always wanted Brexit. Willy Wonka had a more convincing argument for people to stay than he did.

This is just the first time he's just fully dropped the facade and shown off the backstabbing publicly.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
He's always wanted Brexit. Willy Wonka had a more convincing argument for people to stay than he did.

This is just the first time he's just fully dropped the facade and shown off the backstabbing publicly.

This isn't true, and I don't think we have to encourage spurious rumours to attack Corbyn, he has enough weaknesses as it is and you just look like a hack to his supporters.
 

kirblar

Member

Rourkey

Member
UKIP will be the entry drug to get the northern working classes off of Labour, they'll be Tories before you know it, Labour are veering so far off being in touch with the working classes its beggars belief, Its now the party of right-on Islington living no nothing know it alls..

How can Labour have an IRA, Hamas, Putin supporting leader who wants to disband the armed forces and refuses to sing the national anthem, it's beyond a joke.

The Tories and the press are going easy on Corbyn because they are desperate for him to stay as Labour leader so they dont have to worry about the opposition during the brexit negotiations, because he keeps bailing them out of sticky headlines by being a complete moron and because they'll save a fortune at the next general election by simply putting some of the causes he's supported and the idiotic things he's come out with over the years on leaflets.

A decent person would resign before he destroys the party but he is far from decent.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Bull. http://www.economist.com/news/leade...ty-letting-down-remain-campaign-jeremy-corbyn

It's been clear where he stood this entire time. Populists gonna populist.

Most Labour voters in 1975 voted against joining the EEC. It required a heavy Conservative vote to pass. If voting against the EEC in 1975 was all it took to be secretly pro-Leave, a lot more Labour grandees were secretly pro-Leave all along, not just Corbyn. The rest of the article just says "Corbyn rarely makes media appearances, and when he does, they're shambolic - it was a secret sabotage mission!!!". No. That's not because he's pro-Leave saboteur - that description describes literally all of his media appearances, on any topic. We're in an on-going NHS crisis, of which Corbyn has made... 2? public comments on, and immediately sabotaged the first one by launching an entirely new (and stupid) policy on top of, that had just come off the top of his head. Is Corbyn secretly in favour of privatizing the NHS and just trying to sabotage the Labour case for it!?!?!?! No. He's just shit.

In the EU referendum campaign, he backed Remain. His speeches argued for staying in, and he said on balance he supported EU membership. No, he wasn't the greatest advocate, yes, he was quite lukewarm. But being "quite lukewarm" on something doesn't make you against it. It just makes you "quite lukewarm". He was still a Remainer; and there's no need to fib to try and attack him. It just antagonizes his support base further, and makes replacing him an even more difficult task.

EDIT: I mean, if you want an example of an interesting Labour grandee arguing to leave the EEC in the 1980s, there's this relatively well known chap called Anthony Blair.

We will negotiate a withdrawal from the (E)EC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs.

That's the 1982 Beaconsfield by-election.
 

Maledict

Member
UKIP will be the entry drug to get the northern working classes off of Labour, they'll be Tories before you know it, Labour are veering so far off being in touch with the working classes its beggars belief, Its now the party of right-on Islington living no nothing know it alls..

How can Labour have an IRA, Hamas, Putin supporting leader who wants to disband the armed forces and refuses to sing the national anthem, it's beyond a joke.

The Tories and the press are going easy on Corbyn because they are desperate for him to stay as Labour leader so they dont have to worry about the opposition during the brexit negotiations, because he keeps bailing them out of sticky headlines by being a complete moron and because they'll save a fortune at the next general election by simply putting some of the causes he's supported and the idiotic things he's come out with over the years on leaflets.

A decent person would resign before he destroys the party but he is far from decent.

Labour is still the party of minorities in this country, who are strongly pro-EU, so I really think more than anything people should be careful of calling the entire remain segment of the party as "no nothing islington".

I think its more accurate to say its become the party of the cities.
 
I'm not a fan of Corbyn or his crew at all, but honestly here I don't see what alternative he had. Given that over 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave put him in this position.

He really needs to get whatever might and sway he still has in his party to get behind Keir Starmer and try and hold this government to account or everything they do or do not negotiate.

Yeah. This is the only real solution for labour to catch up. People still fixated on reverting Brexit are a vocal minority that are not electorally-wise to appeal at this moment
 

Abelard

Member
I'd take Owen Smith right now over this cunt.

He's only interested in remaining in opposition, he doesn't have the desire or drive to really challenge the government and try to win in 2020. He's happy collecting his cheque, having a bit of fun at PMQ's and then doing fuck all for the rest of the parliament.

The worst kind of cunt. Some people live too long, this is one prime example of that.

Haha, this has to be trolling, right?
 

DJKhaled

Member
I'm Australian so I'm not really in the loop, but everything I hear about Jeremy Corbyn he seems so unpopular, why is he still Labour leader? shit, we change our leaders every year even when they're PM.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
This is a nonsense statement. There is no way one can say that unconditionally.

Either way this seems like OT.

Say what, the fact she would have won in a lot of democracies is a fact. that fact that controversy such as Comey investigations and other bullshit is a high probability as seen by polls. If you every single hypothetical is a nonsense statements, what's the point in theory, hell why bother changing strategies ever.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
So what will happen first, Democrats retaking the US or Labour retaking the UK?

Probably the Democrats, if only because the UK has 5-year terms so Labour's second shot isn't until 2025 where the Democrats only have to wait until 2024.
 

Joni

Member
Yeah. This is the only real solution for labour to catch up. People still fixated on reverting Brexit are a vocal minority that are not electorally-wise to appeal at this moment

A party that manages to unite Remain will win most elections as Leave is now divided under Labour, Tory and UKIP.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm Australian so I'm not really in the loop, but everything I hear about Jeremy Corbyn he seems so unpopular, why is he still Labour leader? shit, we change our leaders every year even when they're PM.

Because all of the potential challengers are much more unpopular with the membership, and worse, make no attempt to do anything about it. Corbyn is a symptom rather than a cause of Labour's inadequacies.
 
I'm Australian so I'm not really in the loop, but everything I hear about Jeremy Corbyn he seems so unpopular, why is he still Labour leader? shit, we change our leaders every year even when they're PM.

Because his supporters are more vocal, send people threats if they speak ill of him, basically treat it as the Corbyn Party...and tbh while I feel as if at some point Corbyn probably did want to be a leader of the Labour Party...i think he quite enjoys it now.

And it sucks balls because his "Opposition" have been pretty bad and leave the more worrying rise of UKIP...all time for a Lib Dem surge to power in a shock victory in 2020 >_>

Still, as much as I live in Chris Grayling's constituency (only good thing I can think of is him flip flopping on Epsom Hospital long enough to keep it open and wanting an Oyster Zone 7 to include Epsom + Leatherhead) it's perhaps time to join my Mum in becoming a Lib Dem voter etc.
 

avaya

Member
Whats the point of an opposition party if you're just gonna bend over when the country needs you the most?

These people are professional protestors. Not interested in actually accomplishing anything. He has form for this, this is the second time he's been part of group that destroyed the Labour party.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
These people are professional protestors. Not interested in actually accomplishing anything. He has form for this, this is the second time he's been part of group that destroyed the Labour party.

Corbyn was never a member of Militant.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Probably the Democrats, if only because the UK has 5-year terms so Labour's second shot isn't until 2025 where the Democrats only have to wait until 2024.

2020 is earliest shot for presidency, and I certainly wouldn't discount it over 2024 given the fact that Trump's administration is guaranteed to make things shitty for a lot of people.. I would say 2018 for congress, but even if there is the usual (or likely greater) amount of discontent with the party in charge during midterms, the map is not pretty for the dems.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
2020 is earliest shot for presidency, and I certainly wouldn't discount it over 2024. I would say 2018 for congress, but even if there is the usual (or likely greater) amount of discontent with the party in charge during midterms, the map is not pretty for the dems.

I know, but UK Labour also has a shot in 2020, so it's a moot-point. When you get to the second go round, it's only 2024 for the Dems, though, hence my point.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Probably the Democrats, if only because the UK has 5-year terms so Labour's second shot isn't until 2025 where the Democrats only have to wait until 2024.

Pretty much, despite the shit show of this all there's no chance labour winning 2020 ad quite frankly I don't even want Corbyn to be in charge of the country the dude can barely run and have the support of his own party, in a post brexit world he maybe ever so slightly better than May but there's no doubt we'll e dealing with an entirely different set bullshit, this time however fuelled by competence. Even that's a pipedream amongst pipedreams as he doesn't even want the position in the first place.
 
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