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[Deleted member 231381]

But he supported the manifesto pledge of unilateral nuclear disarmament (in the cold war) and exiting the EEA.

So did Tony Blair. Here's a snapshot from the 1982 Beaconsfield by-election:

We will negotiate a withdrawal from the EC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed our jobs.

Corbyn has enough things to be judged on without pointless attacks like pointing out that he was a Labour MP in the 1980s and supported the manifesto that all other Labour candidates in the 1980s supported. There's enough material in his present record.

 

[avaya]

So did Tony Blair. Here's a snapshot from the 1982 Beaconsfield by-election:



Corbyn has enough things to be judged on without pointless attacks like pointing out that he was a Labour MP in the 1980s and supported the manifesto that all other Labour candidates in the 1980s supported. There's enough material in his present record.

I stand corrected.

 

[Principate]

Because all of the potential challengers are much more unpopular with the membership, and worse, make no attempt to do anything about it. Corbyn is a symptom rather than a cause of Labour's inadequacies.

Eh it's definitely not that, for all his faults unpopularity with the membership is not one of them. There's a million members of labour which has a fair bit to do with his candidacy (the largest party in Europe they like to say). The grass roots network is substantial. It's more he's genuinely more popular with the new membership that's in a manner hijacking the party rather than genera unpopularity even with al his faults.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I stand corrected.

When (if) Labour has a Prime Minister, I guarantee you they'll be an ex-Corbynite, in the way Blair was an ex-Footite (something many forget). That doesn't mean, policy-wise, they'll be anything like Corbyn, of course - people can have fairly large shifts in their political stances over their careers, as Blair did - but parties tend to value loyalty. You'll want to be looking at people like Clive Lewis or Angela Rayner, I think. The 'rightest' you're going to get is a 'collaborator', if you'll excuse the term, like Keir Starmer.

The Labour right have totally lost their minds and all their position within the party. It's sad seeing so much talent destroying itself so wilfully. If you want to be leader of the Labour Party, you need to get 50% +1 of the membership's vote. You don't do that by shitting all over them. That's just the reality of the situation, and at the moment I feel like the PLP is actively prolonging how long Corbyn can hold office.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Eh it's definitely not that, for all his faults unpopularity with the membership is not one of them. There's a million members of labour which has a fair bit to do with his candidacy (the largest party in Europe they like to say). The grass roots network is substantial. It's more he's genuinely more popular with the new membership that's in a manner hijacking the party rather than genera unpopularity even with al his faults.

Oh, I wasn't saying he was unpopular with the membership, just that even if he wasn't, his challengers weren't going to win anyway. I voted Burnham and even at the time I knew he was a milquetoast waste of space. I wasn't surprised by the result in the slightest.

 

[PJV3]

You can drag up loads of stuff about Corbyn and with a little twisting make it look atrocious. But the real problem is his own parliamentary party near enough called him unfit to lead them, nevermind the country.


Right or wrong the tories have enough ammunition just from that occasion for a hundred different leaflets.

 

[Abelard]

No it's a perfectly rational person who is in utter disbelief that the Labour party has been taken over by the left wing tea party.

No "perfectly rational person" wishes death on people they don't like. Well, Maybe if it was Hitler or something.

 

[Principate]

You can drag up loads of stuff about Corbyn and with a little twisting make it look atrocious. But the real problem is his own parliamentary party near enough called him unfit to lead them, nevermind the country.


Right or wrong the tories have enough ammunition just from that occasion for a hundred different leaflets.

Not just that he won't even make the commitment to step down labour loses the next election. Which says it all anyone that has any institutions interests at heart will imply they won't leave even if they actively destroy said intuition through their leadership.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

On a side-note, that anti-Corybn revolt is beginning to happen. Copeland CLP just rejected Corbyn's favoured candidate (Rachel Holliday) in favour of renegade committed Remainer Gill Troughton. Not that she's a rightist candidate by any means - she has a pretty strong leftwing background.

The Labour Party is in the process of being totally reshaped right now.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

There was a poll last year that asked voters who they'd vote for in a hypothetical scenario where both the Tories and Labour backed hard Brexit and the Lib Dems were the sole voice backing remaining. That poll gave the LDs a pretty huge boost - especially in strongly pro-Remain areas like London.

Corbyn's printing his own party's death certificate right now - this is just the paper being loaded into the printer.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Clement Attlee is turning in his grave right now.

 

[Dead Man]

The will of his voters are like 50/50 split on leave / remain what is he to do?

he tells them to vote for they alienate their left leaning base.
he tells them to vote against they alienate their middle england base.
its a no win situation.

Or he could shut the fuck up and let them vote as their constituencies and consciences determine.

I have assumed the British system allows for conscience votes.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

There was a poll last year that asked voters who they'd vote for in a hypothetical scenario where both the Tories and Labour backed hard Brexit and the Lib Dems were the sole voice backing remaining. That poll gave the LDs a pretty huge boost - especially in strongly pro-Remain areas like London.

Corbyn's printing his own party's death certificate right now - this is just the paper being loaded into the printer.

Labour isn't backing hard Brexit, though.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

No "perfectly rational person" wishes death on people they don't like. Well, Maybe if it was Hitler or something.

Saying someone lived too long isn't wishing death upon them, it's simply stating they lived too long and things might be better if they hadn't, but thanks to the marvels of modern medicine and better nutritional advice and other societal improvements, we know have people who would normally be dead living up until they are 90 fucking up all kinds of shit because they are scared of change.

So yeah, some people do live too long but that doesn't mean I wish them dead.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Labour isn't backing hard Brexit, though.

What if the government can't guarantee a 'soft' brexit before A50 is triggered? Sounds like they'll be forced to vote for it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

What if the government can't guarantee a 'soft' brexit before A50 is triggered? Sounds like they'll be forced to vote for it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...tee-single-market-access-brexit-a7400266.html

No. Corbyn is just bad at messaging.

 

[Pyroclastic]

People should not be suprised at this. He would actively be putting his MP's in danger if he even hinted he might try to stop brexit

half of labour's traditional support base are in poor post industrial areas who voted overwhelmingly to leave where ukip got loads of 2nd places at the last election

and the rest are in metropolitan cities that voted in large margins to stay

so they're pretty much fucked whatever they do

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Labour isn't backing hard Brexit, though.

Yes it is, it's three line whipping it.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...tee-single-market-access-brexit-a7400266.html

No. Corbyn is just bad at messaging.

Thanks, but it worth noting this is from November and his position could well have changed since then.

 

[kirblar]

Yes it is, it's three line whipping it.

Seriously. "VOTE FOR BREXIT" is pretty damn unambiguous.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Thanks, but it worth noting this is from November and his position could well have changed since then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38561501

From a week ago, then.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Seriously. "VOTE FOR BREXIT" is pretty damn unambiguous.

I feel like you didn't pay attention to the crucial word in my sentence, but not actually paying attention to what people are saying is one of your specialties, so I'll let it pass.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Reading about Labour makes me feel much better about the Democratic party.

Your Democrats are more right wing than our mainstream right wing party.

Corbyn is actually left wing, far moreso than Sanders, but terribly fond of putting his foot in his mouth, and his own party hates him.

I'm still voting for him.

 

[Spuck-uk]

There was a poll last year that asked voters who they'd vote for in a hypothetical scenario where both the Tories and Labour backed hard Brexit and the Lib Dems were the sole voice backing remaining. That poll gave the LDs a pretty huge boost - especially in strongly pro-Remain areas like London.

Corbyn's printing his own party's death certificate right now - this is just the paper being loaded into the printer.

The lib dems have a leader so unremarkable I doubt the average voter could tell you anything about him, including his name. This is not a route to electoral success.

 

[DSN2K]

if you look at the kind of man he is he was always Pro Exit for me...

 

[Lego Boss]

Fuck off Corbyn you fucking useless tosser.

 

[Toxi]

Your Democrats are more right wing than our mainstream right wing party.

LOLno

Even with the Overton Window in US politics, no.

 

[twobear]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/19/labour-article-50-jeremy-corbyn-vote

Owen Jones saying......pretty much exactly what I said earlier in the thread. Although I'll add that I think that some Labour members voting against Corbyn's position is probably right, too.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Corbyn's whole approach is direct democracy. For him to oppose a plebiscite or allow his party to oppose one would be to lose all the credibility behind his position as party leader.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

The lib dems have a leader so unremarkable I doubt the average voter could tell you anything about him, including his name. This is not a route to electoral success.

Actually you're not wrong - maybe 50% of the public don't have much of an opinion on him yet. Same situation with most LD leaders.

However, he is the face of the party of Remain now. I think things will change.

A good example of that is that he's on the front page of the Guardian tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/19/labour-article-50-jeremy-corbyn-vote

Owen Jones saying......pretty much exactly what I said earlier in the thread. Although I'll add that I think that some Labour members voting against Corbyn's position is probably right, too.

Yes. I wouldn't have thought it unexpected, but if this did surprise you, Jones does a good job of explaining why it shouldn't have.

Labour's support base overwhelmingly voted Remain, the marginal swing voter overwhelmingly voted Leave. Someone concerned with the fortunes of the party as a whole will want the party to vote Leave to do well with those marginal voters, someone concerned with how they personally perform in their individual seat (with the seat having voted Remain) will vote Remain. And so we reach our current quagmire.

This isn't a problem for the Conservatives because they had so few Remain seats, in the end. The electoral maths all adds up - switch to Leave, nice and easy. There aren't many Richmonds, as much as the play out in Lib Dem fantasies. Meanwhile, Labour is stranded 'twixt Scylla and Charybdis, between London and Stoke.

 

[Hazzuh]

Corbyn was never a member of Militant.

He did organise the campaign to stop them being expelled from the party long after it became clear that they were a party within a party rather than just a newspaper though

Most Labour voters in 1975 voted against joining the EEC. It required a heavy Conservative vote to pass. If voting against the EEC in 1975 was all it took to be secretly pro-Leave, a lot more Labour grandees were secretly pro-Leave all along, not just Corbyn.

Well yes, the Labour party was eurosceptic until the late 1980s However, by maastricht clearly the majority of people had changed their mind but Corbyn clearly hadn't since he voted against it. He also voted against the Lisbon treaty in 2008. The reason people think he was "secretly pro-Leave" isn't just because of his position in 1975 but everything he'd ever said about the EU before 2015 when it became politically useful for him to take another position.

Also, lots of people surrounding him are also thought to be pro-Leave (such as Milne and McDonnell) and they did things like remove pro-EU content from speeches etc during the campaign.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

He did organise the campaign to stop them being expelled from the party long after it became clear that they were a party within a party rather than just a newspaper though

His office also gave Derek Hatton a press pass so he could attend the recent autumn conference in Liverpool, too. He's mates with the old Militant lot, even if it's just cautious mates.

 

[PJV3]

Actually you're not wrong - maybe 50% of the public don't have much of an opinion on him yet. Same situation with most LD leaders.

However, he is the face of the party of Remain now. I think things will change.

I don't mind him but he's got to be more careful about attacking labour, or I can see him pissing those voters off again.

He should concentrate on Libdem's being their own thing, people are only just putting the coalition into perspective.

 

[pswii60]

Wtf is the point in you Labour?
The amount of respect I've lost for this man is incredible



Yep. We could very well see UKIP as the opposition. Horrifying times we live in.

Labour UKIP coalition yeahhhh

Spoiler

Argh.. Tory UKIP coalition..? Yeah argghhhh nightmares

 

[Deleted member 231381]

He did organise the campaign to stop them being expelled from the party long after it became clear that they were a party within a party rather than just a newspaper though

And? I'm not a Corbynite, but if Labour tried expelling Momentum I'd be first to the barricades.

Also, lots of people surrounding him are also thought to be pro-Leave (such as Milne and McDonnell) and they did things like remove pro-EU content from speeches etc during the campaign.

McDonnell literally threatened to deselect Labour MPs who backed Leave, and we're calling him a secret Leaver? Come on. Yes, Corbyn and McDonnell had reservations about the Lisbon Treaty. So did the populations of Ireland and France. So did I. But there's a difference between being apprehensive about certain European reforms and being against the entire European structure. Is anyone who said "Oh, I like Europe, but I want to see it reformed" suddenly a Leaver now? If Corbyn or McDonnell had wanted to be in favour of leaving the EU, given that before this date they had been perenniel backbenchers without a responsibility in the world, you'd have known about it. They've not been covering it up all these years in preparation for the top job - they're not competent enough to play 11-dimensional chess, for a start.

Milne is another matter. I have no dispute with you there.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I don't mind him but he's got to be more careful about attacking labour, or I can see him pissing those voters off again.

He should concentrate on Libdem's being their own thing, people are only just putting the coalition into perspective.

I agree. The Lib Dems will need a full manifesto of good policy, not just Brexit.

But as the LDs are now the only Remain voice - at least in England - there will now be more space for that policy to be heard in.

 

[Hazzuh]

And? I'm not a Corbynite, but if Labour tried expelling Momentum I'd be first to the barricades.

I wasn't really disagreeing with you just adding that while he wasn't a member of Militant he was sympathetic ("no grounds exist for discriminating between ourselves and Militant in respect of politics or the way we organise"). Also there is no comparison to be made between Momentum and Militant whatsoever, Militant were a Trotskyite sect whose explicit purpose was to subvert and undermine the Labour party, Momentum are just undermining the party by accident.

McDonnell literally threatened to deselect Labour MPs who backed Leave, and we're calling him a secret Leaver? Come on. Yes, Corbyn and McDonnell had reservations about the Lisbon Treaty. So did the populations of Ireland and France. So did I. But there's a difference between being apprehensive about certain European reforms and being against the entire European structure. Is anyone who said "Oh, I like Europe, but I want to see it reformed" suddenly a Leaver now? If Corbyn or McDonnell had wanted to be in favour of leaving the EU, given that before this date they had been perenniel backbenchers without a responsibility in the world, you'd have known about it. They've not been covering it up all these years in preparation for the top job - they're not competent enough to play 11-dimensional chess, for a start.

Milne is another matter. I have no dispute with you there.

Hm? It's not like Corbyn and McDonnell's euroscepticism was some secret, I'm not suggesting they were covering it up at all. Here are some Corbyn quotes from the debates on the Maastricht treaty (I don't think he spoke at any of the debates on Lisbon?):

The whole basis of the Maastricht treaty is the establishment of a European central bank which is staffed by bankers, independent of national Governments and national economic policies, and whose sole policy is the maintenance of price stability. That will undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom—or any other Government—would wish to carry out … The imposition of a bankers’ Europe on the people of this continent will endanger the cause of socialism in the United Kingdom and in any other country

At least 60 Labour Members voted against the Bill on Second Reading and I am sure that they will vote against the Maastricht treaty again tonight, primarily because it takes away from national Parliaments the power to set economic policy and hands it over to an unelected set of bankers who will impose the economic policies of price stability, deflation and high unemployment throughout the European Community.

These don't sound like someone who wanted to reform the EU but rather rejected it wholesale. I agree there isn't some smoking gun which definitively proves he was pro-Leave but it doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me that he might have been. However, I do agree with your general point that re-litigating the EU referendum is a waste of time. What Corbyn "really thought" matters about as much as what Johnson or May "really thought" before the vote.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The whole basis of the Maastricht treaty is the establishment of a European central bank which is staffed by bankers, independent of national Governments and national economic policies, and whose sole policy is the maintenance of price stability. That will undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom—or any other Government—would wish to carry out ... The imposition of a bankers' Europe on the people of this continent will endanger the cause of socialism in the United Kingdom and in any other country

I mean... does this sound wrong to you? The one-size-fits-all nature of the ECB and the fact it stripped monetary policy from national governments is exactly the reason the Eurozone crisis was as bad as it was. You have to remember this is in the context of a political climate where people overwhelmingly expected us to join the Euro, as we so nearly did, having tried to under Major and after Blair pushed for it internally before being shut down by Brown. ECB debates were very relevant to the UK. This isn't anti-European Union, this is... a pretty sound judgement call (which is... surprising, given this is Corbyn. Then again he was largely following example at that point, rather than making his own stance).

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Horrible policy for Labour in the south, I'm guessing they're banking on their base being strong enough to hold there while they prevent voters in the north switching over en masse to the Tories / UKIP. Most importantly though is that this gives some space for the Lib Dems. They can really carve out this niche now, andcan punish Labour in metropolitan areas. It also means more airtime for Farron, as he becomes the default pro-EU, pro-EEA, pro-single market politician. I don't think Farron is nearly as mediocre as people think - he just needs more screen time.

 

[Hazzuh]

I mean... does this sound wrong to you? The one-size-fits-all nature of the ECB and the fact it stripped monetary policy from national governments is exactly the reason the Eurozone crisis was as bad as it was. You have to remember this is in the context of a political climate where people overwhelmingly expected us to join the Euro, as we so nearly did, having tried to under Major and after Blair pushed for it internally before being shut down by Brown. ECB debates were very relevant to the UK. This isn't anti-European Union, this is... a pretty sound judgement call (which is... surprising, given this is Corbyn. Then again he was largely following example at that point, rather than making his own stance).

There are obviously criticisms to be made of the ECB, especially their handling of the Eurozone crisis. The point those quotes were supposed to make is that they were uncompromisingly anti-EU, do you see anything in them which suggests Corbyn is in favour of reform? The point of the view of the Bennites has always been that the EU was "The imposition of a bankers’ Europe" and nothing more. Nobody doubts that Benn was anti-EU and I don't see any gap between Corbyn and Benn on this issue (until he became leader) so I don't see any reason to think Corbyn wasn't also anti-EU.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

I was just thinking, if front benchers are prepared to resign after this, as the BBC are reporting, who's left for Corbyn to pick for his shadow cabinet? I swear he already was choosing from slim pickings after his re-election last year.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I was just thinking, if front benchers are prepared to resign after this, as the BBC are reporting, who's left for Corbyn to pick for his shadow cabinet? I swear he already was choosing from slim pickings after his re-election last year.

Very few people. We have Dianne Abbot as Shadow Home Secretary because nobody wanted that chalice. Some who previously resigned may return if the party is in a seriously desperate state, though.

Wait until after the council and mayoral elections this year to see how bloody it will get, though. Labour in Manchester and Liverpool are seeking to hold and gain mayoralties in strongly Remain areas.

London will be a bloodbath now, too.

My prediction is a Lib Dem surge. I am extremely biased, though.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Lib Dem MP Alistair Carmichael verbalising just why Labour's choice not to scrutinise Brexit is a derogation of their duty as the official opposition. (Facebook, BBC Question Time)

 

[Jezbollah]

Just saw in the Telegraph that Corbyn might have backed down already about the whipping of the A50 vote? Trying to find more sources to validate.

 

[PJV3]

Just saw in the Telegraph that Corbyn might have backed down already about the whipping of the A50 vote? Trying to find more sources to validate.

If it's true

The plonker needs to quit, half the time I think he's being forced to stay on by his team.

He's utterly shit, he needs to quit.

 

[Camp Freddie]

3-line whip is ridiculous. I expected the official Labour position to be pro-brexit, but you should let your MPs from London and other cities vote for what their consituents voted for.

At this rate, Labour will be the party of the ex-dockyards and ex-mining towns. They're just throwing away all their metropolitan support.

 

[Lagamorph]

There are rumblings that anything between 60-80 Labour MPs are planning to revolt and vote against triggering Brexit even if Corbyn invokes a three line whip.

 

[McBradders]

I'm fucking done with this guy.

Came out swinging as a potential alternative but man he's making it so fucking hard to keep the faith.

We're fucked. Well done. GGPO.

 

[KurtSloane]

I feel bad for UK lefties.

I'll be middle aged by the time Labour forms government again.

If Scotland leaves the UK there will never ve another Labour government.