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Jihadi gunmen kill 28 passengers on Kenyan bus for not being Muslim
- Thread starter Soriku
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Unfair? We're talking about someone who claimed to have had received phone calls from God himself (albeit through an archangel). Maybe the "all-knowing" and "all-wise" God should've mentioned something about secular democracy? That would've been a nice break between the numerous descriptions of torturing techniques saved for the disbelievers in Hellfire.
Sigh. This is why I can't take religion seriously.
Joel Was Right
Member
I have to say, there is a lot of lazy commentating here from people who've apparently no interest in the actual incident aside from the religious identity of the assailants. We're all too familiar with the tendency of of barbarism by Muslim militant groups, but its lazy to define every incident and every conflict as purely religiously motivated.
Case in point:
Somalia has largely been an ungoverned, turbulent land controlled by several tribal factions whom have held bitter resentment towards one another after decades of fighting. During the Iraq War, where a Jihadi movement emerged, some Somali's sought to quell tribal divisions by unifying under a shared identity; their faith. A Muslim society, with Islamic laws (Shariah), was their selling point, and a bullet was their response to those who rejected them. The country remained a violent place, but the emergence of an Islamist in the region concerned the West. An African task-force (the African Union) was sent in to provide stability, but the local populace resented the foreign incursion. During this period, the transitional government of Somalia, backed by the international community, operated largely in the neighbouring Kenya.
When fighting increased, refugees would mass flee to Kenya, alarming the locals. The Kenyan government would then send in their army to support the Somali transitional government and AU effort, marking the beginning of clashes with Al-Shabab.
It was war with each side claiming to be victimised by 'transgressions', citing 'massacres' by the other.
Al-Shabab began terrorist attacks inside Kenya in response to overwhelming military power. Episodes like this on the bus follow that trend.
They are a brutal group who show little respect to human life, especially those of non-Muslims. But these attacks are not motivated by simply religion, but their claim of sovereignty over Somalia. They kill like this to cause outrage in the Kenyan homeland with the aim of turning the Army back.
There are religiously motivated conflicts in the world, and many involving Muslims and Islam. This isn't one of them.
Case in point:
Has there ever been a better reason to kill thousands just because you don't share an imaginary friend in the sky?
Somalia has largely been an ungoverned, turbulent land controlled by several tribal factions whom have held bitter resentment towards one another after decades of fighting. During the Iraq War, where a Jihadi movement emerged, some Somali's sought to quell tribal divisions by unifying under a shared identity; their faith. A Muslim society, with Islamic laws (Shariah), was their selling point, and a bullet was their response to those who rejected them. The country remained a violent place, but the emergence of an Islamist in the region concerned the West. An African task-force (the African Union) was sent in to provide stability, but the local populace resented the foreign incursion. During this period, the transitional government of Somalia, backed by the international community, operated largely in the neighbouring Kenya.
When fighting increased, refugees would mass flee to Kenya, alarming the locals. The Kenyan government would then send in their army to support the Somali transitional government and AU effort, marking the beginning of clashes with Al-Shabab.
It was war with each side claiming to be victimised by 'transgressions', citing 'massacres' by the other.
Al-Shabab began terrorist attacks inside Kenya in response to overwhelming military power. Episodes like this on the bus follow that trend.
They are a brutal group who show little respect to human life, especially those of non-Muslims. But these attacks are not motivated by simply religion, but their claim of sovereignty over Somalia. They kill like this to cause outrage in the Kenyan homeland with the aim of turning the Army back.
There are religiously motivated conflicts in the world, and many involving Muslims and Islam. This isn't one of them.
Snkfanatic
Banned
Nice generalization, surely every Muslim is like this right? Sigh
It's clear they're pissed off with Kenya as a whole but this Quran pop quiz thing makes it obvious that they are after Kenyan non-Muslims exclusively.
They separated non-Muslims out by asking people to recite verses from the Koran.
Those that couldn't were slaughtered.
I'm not saying their religion caused them to do this, but their religion was a factor in this event, to claim otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
Hahahaha.
Quran.
Anyway, someone who wants to kill will use anything to justify their actions. Just like someone who wants to rape another person. Or someone who is plotting to rob someone else.
Yet unless its religious, none of the other "motives" are ever given any legitimacy. Its always reflected back directly to the person.
Yes because all murderers are simply mindless drones with zero convictions. Get real.
Stereogatari
Banned
The cliche comment strikes again.
Um yeah you might have missed the mark with this interpretation. Don't know where mindless drone comes from
oh yeah we know what you think, you have made that abundantly clear in the past.
Yes, but when your magic book has words that could be interpreted to say that your particular cloud fairy expects you to kill those who don't believe and you'll get virgins to bang for eternity, (Never understood this bit are these Virgins in some form of hell?) it provides a big incentive to be an asshole.
Stereogatari
Banned
Nowhere in the magic book does it say that.
However it does say that sperm is produced in the lower back.
Or, conversely when you have people twist words of doctrine to justify whatever crime they commit, you can become said asshole.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Too busy trying to ruin christmas and other holidays atm... but when that's done. Watch out.
The words simply are not definitive enough and are vague enough to be twisted to fit any scenario.
Ergo, we have these nutters.
They really aren't. We have these nutters because they are nuts. You'd be hard pressed to find any scriptural support for modern day jihadism.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
No one is saying that. Of course not all Muslims are like that. However, there is clearly something fundamentally wrong about the religion when many people interpret it in these kinds of barbaric ways, and when many "moderates" also have some pretty extreme beliefs. Instinctively responding to any criticism of a religion with what amounts to #NotAllMen is a cheap tactic that serves only to demonize the other person by misrepresenting their argument.
The argumentative tactics thread should really be pinned so more people read it.
elrechazado
Banned
So the religion has nothing to do with it, or something to do with it, or it's the only reason? Pick somewhere in the scale.
Because the predictable no true Scotsman bullcrap that always pops up in these threads gets really tiresome. "Nothing to do with Islam/not real Muslims" (Tm)
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
There are thousands of denominations of the major abrahamic religions precisely because no one can fucking agree on what the words mean. And they read in everything from selflessness to pure hatred... hard pressed to find scriptural support for jihadism? Yeah sorry, depends on who you ask my friend. Might not be your flavor of the religion, or what you're familiar with, But it comes in all sorts of flavors. This is not even debatable,
Next step is no true Scotsman and then round and round we'll go.
Ah... predictable is right.
I know this may be a bit unreasonable buy could you, you know read up on jihadism and see what its actually is about before you debate about it? Super unfair I know but please?
This has as much to do with religion as some crazy group using it as a scapegoat to justify killing. Take from that what you will. The guy from the OP spoke of crusaders for fucks sake.
This is terribly misleading. There are far more reasons that people denominate than scripture. If anything, classism and racism are far more overarching reasons.
Jihadists have been questioned and challenged on their faith and Quranic claims since their insurgency. There's a reason why they've gone from peaceful persuasive conversion tactics to this iron fist they try to push.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
This is great. Really good stuff.
You're acting as if a murderer's #1 goal is to murder and they'll make up any excuse to follow through. Have you considered, maybe, that they begin with a list of reason to hate another person/group -- perhaps based on a combination of religious beliefs and ongoing political strife, and the incentive to murder comes afterwards?
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
I'm confused....everyone knows it's a theocracy. Do you think defining it makes it somehow acceptable or something? You can hand-wave lack of any personal freedom in North Korea by saying "It's a DICTATORSHIP!" too, but that doesn't really do much to make it sound better.
The muslim empires were bad BECAUSE they were theocracies.
Just to be clear, you're saying that these men killing non-Muslim passengers is not a religiously motivated conflict, right?
You've still terribly missed the point and are basically arguing against yourself. I'd forget it at this point.
But as for your actual argument here. Youre saying, in the face of countless videos and pics of people doing things like posing with bodies and shit that people who kill by the scores like these groups don't get some sort of gratification simply for killing? You have US Marines downrange taking selfies with enemies they knock off. Mexican cartel members smoking blunts and dancing as they prepare to chainsaw a guys head off. That gratification. Is it simply because of some sense of duty, or is it because they are sick fucks that take satisfaction that some faux power has given them the authority to do this? Or is it different here because of religion and regular people dynamic s don't apply.
Non- religious people tend to be less violent because they don't have anything galvanizing them together into a group. It's like herding cats. So sure, atheists can be violent and have been. But a lone assailant is not going to be dangerous as a group.
This is such horseshit.
So in this world of billions of people where the majority is religious, you can somehow quantify that atheists are the ones who are less violent? Orly? And they are galvanized into a group. Its called atheists.
I didn't say atheists are less violent individually. I'm saying people in general can be worked up to be more violent when in groups. That's just the nature of humanity. I'm saying religious groups have a higher potential and likeliness for violence than individual atheists because the religious people are in groups.
And atheists do not group up. Maybe a couple of little gatherings exist, and reddit has a lot of outspoken atheist teenagers. But go outside and drive down the street. You see churches everywhere. You don't see atheists organizing nationwide into institutions.
You don't have any reason to even take offense. I'm not arguing that the material within religion makes people more violent (though that is definitely an argument that can be made about some religions). I'm just arguing group-think in general leads to more violence than individuals. You don't see many lone torch pickfork holders.
Lots of non-religious people don't refer to themselves as Athiests or ascribe to any Athiest groups, so no, they're not galvanized into one group, they sure as hell would be unlikely to rally together to cause violent acts.
No, you're the one missing the point completely. There are sick fucks who hurt others because they are sadists, yes, no one is denying that. But there are also other fucks who have deeply held convictions against some other party and act on those convictions.
Yes, there are videos that clearly indicate sadism, but there are also videos where jihadists give lengthy explanations as to why they are committing these violent acts. The Lee Rigby video is one. Some people who commit heinous crimes actually think they're doing GOOD and don't act in such a way merely for the sake of it. Why the fuck is this so difficult for you to understand?
And it's hilarious that you keep asking "what makes religion special?" You're the one who is making religion special by excluding it from ever being a motivation for anything.
People kill for many different reasons. Religion is sometimes one of them. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, nowhere.
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"
Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
No, you are missing the point. See it's so juvenile I can do it too!
But no seriously, you're completely off the mark again. I said forget it, because every post you completly duck the point and argue against something that was never argued. Discussion has moved on. Its a drag to keep revisiting the same thing you keep missing.
Ah, selectively translated random Quran quotes. And none of it is about the jihad. Bravo. Did you Google or Bing?
elrechazado
Banned
Perhaps you could be responsive.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Maybe instead of calling people juvenile and telling them to let it go, thus pretending like you have the moral high ground, you could explain your position in further detail, because I don't see how it's unfair to say that religion can be a factor in barbaric acts such as this.
If I misrepresented your position then clarify instead of being a condescending asshat by constantly repeating "wrong again! forget it!"
Joel Was Right
Member
Although I'm an agnostic (formerly Muslim), partially for reasons related to this topic, I make it a habit not to engage in dialogue with people who copy paste verses that show they've not done any background reading. If he can't be bothered to do that, then he won't be bothered by what you say
Stereogatari
Banned
I thought we were talking about specifically virgins in heaven reward.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Because most of these people have nothing else to latch on to.
Extremism is an easier sell to be who have nothing to lose and no options.
Its just so odd that people argue in such detail about things they have no idea about. 5 minutes of googling isn't enough time to understand anything.
That's not an excuse either. Approximately a fifth of people in the the world are muslim. And a great percentge of Muslims are living in or near poverty, yet most don't turn to extremism.
Audioboxer
Member
Absolutely horrible to slaughter innocent lives like this.
No "mainstream" religion will ever be tolerant of another, they all want to divide and conquer as they're all right, everyone else is wrong. At least some of the crazies just fight with words and YouTube comments. Those that use violence, I just, I don't know, I don't even want to call them human beings. They certainly aren't men or women I'd like to refer to as my fellow species.
No "mainstream" religion will ever be tolerant of another, they all want to divide and conquer as they're all right, everyone else is wrong. At least some of the crazies just fight with words and YouTube comments. Those that use violence, I just, I don't know, I don't even want to call them human beings. They certainly aren't men or women I'd like to refer to as my fellow species.
NeoGAF does this with junior members not being able to read the rules mind you, but that's okay 
Diatribe1974
Member
So many people say that we ultimately have nothing to worry about as there so few of these types of people in the world. But I say that it doesn't need to have a huge amount to really fuck shit up. If it takes a small village of 30 people to raise a barn over the weekend and only 1 person to light the match to burn it down, then tell me again how insignificant that small number is? Sitting back and doing nothing is like telling them its fine to be the way they are and their actions are justified. There's no amount of education these people can be corrected with, no nothing at all to change who and what they are because the core of what they are is something that cannot be corrected.
They really do. Pretty much every religion suffers from this. The crusades happened with the backing of the church and gods blessing....
Thankfully the majority have moved on from the middle ages,we just need these nutters to.
So just around today we have :
- 28 killed on a bus by al-shabab militants who want a "religious war"
- 45 killed at a volleyball game by a suicide bomber
- 50 killed by ADF with axes, an ally of al-shabab and fellow islamist group
and finally
- 48 fishermen killed by boko haram, who chose to slit their throats rather than shoot them and risk alerting nearby forces
In total 171 killed in around the last 24 hours by these religious zealots, not counting the numerous individual killings by these groups that go unreported.
One tiny bit of good news came through today though, and that's that the woman who was arrested trying to watch a men's volleyball game in Iran has been freed.
- 28 killed on a bus by al-shabab militants who want a "religious war"
- 45 killed at a volleyball game by a suicide bomber
- 50 killed by ADF with axes, an ally of al-shabab and fellow islamist group
and finally
- 48 fishermen killed by boko haram, who chose to slit their throats rather than shoot them and risk alerting nearby forces
In total 171 killed in around the last 24 hours by these religious zealots, not counting the numerous individual killings by these groups that go unreported.
One tiny bit of good news came through today though, and that's that the woman who was arrested trying to watch a men's volleyball game in Iran has been freed.
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