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John Stewart on Crossfire @ 4:30pm est.

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pnjtony

Member
Stewart has ambushed his fair share of guests. Wolf Blitzer comes to mind. He owned him on that show. Also Guiliani during the first debate I believe. Classic.

The thing with the Daily Show is that it has it's cake and eats it to. If they wanna be a serious news show, Jon'll do it up, but if he leaves that seriousness lacking, he can always fall back on it's just a fake news show.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Banjo Tango said:
Like if the Democrats don't provide them with their talking points, they can't criticise the administration becaues they're terrified of being called partisan.

So. Fucking. Sad.

That's a very legitimate point. The press really has lost much of its "fourth pillar" functionality in recent years, it seems. Very sad.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
pnjtony said:
The thing with the Daily Show is that it has it's cake and eats it to. If they wanna be a serious news show, Jon'll do it up, but if he leaves that seriousness lacking, he can always fall back on it's just a fake news show.
Well and the best part is that, if I recall correctly, the show's legally protected on both sides as well. It legally has its cake and eats it too. I think a year or two ago it had to be classified for some government thing, and it was decided it was both a news program and a parody show, which allows it to do just about anything.

Loki said:
You'll get no argument from me that he had a legitimate point that deserved to be heard, as you note; what I take issue with is how he went about making it. He's certainly intelligent and influential enough to have gotten his point across and his opinion on these matters heard somehow, whether it was on Crossfire or elsewhere. That's just how I see it.
Then where else would you suggest he takes this significant criticism? If it's on his own show (which he does often enough, although with comedy) or in a book he writes, he'll probably end up preaching to the choir more than reaching anyone new. Saying what he said on Crossfire is a way for him to at least attempt to get his point across to the people who need convincing.
 

Sergenth

Member
No, I didn't miss your point. I just don't think you have an accurate model of Al Franken's motives.

They have very different views on how they should interact with the political environment.

You're right, but where Jon Stewart is centrist and non-political yet is moved enough to tell a show's host that his show is garbage and anti-useful, Al Franken has decided to do a shticky show full of wise-assery, PLUS air his views or the views of other self-labelled liberals or progressives on the radio, and call many shows garbagey.

I think Al Franken falls dangerously close to just being another partisan hack that recites party lines and fights for an agenda.

My contention is that Democrats didn't do what Al Franken does at that scale (radio)... he started with it all, so he's more than a representative... he's a mastermind behind it... but while being separate from the Dems (which is what I feel is the case). As far as being an echo chamber for the left, he takes sound clips from talk shows and then proceed to attempt (?) to ridicule the missing logic behind the statements. That's what Al's show does. That's ALL his show does... :p

I will agree that he surely does have an agenda -- he wants Bush out -- but he doesn't recite the party lines for the sake of hypnosis. I guess he does recite them in order to analyze the differences between what each side says, promises, and what they actually do. That's an important distinction, that I hope can separate him, in your mind, from the rest of the talking numbskulls out there which skip the "let's take the time to analyze this" step.

Keep on the lookout though. You tell me when Al Franken "has" crossed that line. We'll corroborate then.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Sergenth said:
Keep on the lookout though. You tell me when Al Franken "has" crossed that line. We'll corroborate then.
This is what I know: he has an agenda for making Kerry look good and Bush look bad. For him to visually display his disagreement with an undeniable truth about how both campaigns twist the other's words around, giving the implication that only Bush and his campaign does that...? Well, from what I know of Stewart, he'd have a problem with someone that sticks so blindly to one party and cannot condede something like that. Franken's out there protecting Kerry and his campaign organization on CNN to the extent that he would deny simple logic. That's the exact sort of thing Stewart skewers on The Daily Show.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Dan said:
Then where else would you suggest he takes this significant criticism? If it's on his own show (which he does often enough, although with comedy) or in a book he writes, he'll probably end up preaching to the choir more than reaching anyone new. Saying what he said on Crossfire is a way for him to at least attempt to get his point across to the people who need convincing.

Fair enough point. I just feel that he could have remained a bit more composed and tried to say his piece; if the hosts continually tried to shout him down or drown out his points with incessant chatter, then he could have just stated his displeasure and let it be known that he was trying to make a legitimate point that deserved to be heard. If they persisted, then THEY would end up losing popularity with the general public (ideally). He'd end up gaining respect while they lost it, as opposed to the sensibility of some his arguments being overshadowed, in a sense, by his somewhat indecorous conduct. I realize that I'm likely being too idealistic in this instance (in my expectations of him), but that's my opinion. :)
 
Loki said:
Fair enough point. I just feel that he could have remained a bit more composed and tried to say his piece; if the hosts continually tried to shout him down or drown out his points with incessant chatter, then he could have just stated his displeasure and let it be known that he was trying to make a legitimate point that deserved to be heard. If they persisted, then THEY would end up losing popularity with the general public (ideally).
But that's what those shows are built on.
 

Sergenth

Member
Loki sed:
You'll get no argument from me that he had a legitimate point that deserved to be heard, as you note; what I take issue with is how he went about making it. He's certainly intelligent and influential enough to have gotten his point across and his opinion on these matters heard somehow, whether it was on Crossfire or elsewhere. That's just how I see it.

I think you're just reacting to Jon's forthright derision of their show. We aren't used to that. His face wasn't angry... Tucker's face was showing mild outrage or strong disbelief. It's easier to be on Tucker's side because Tucker "seemed" wounded... seemed like the meeker of the two. Tucker emotes more. All Tucker did as response to Jon's attacks was steer the conversation to his on-screen multimedia moment (the three questions for Kerry -- they paid for the infographic slide, so they are going to push things aside in order to use it!)

When Jon continued to gripe about the partisan hackery (long after Crossfire stays on a subject usually), Tucker didn't have a useful responses to that claim, except to try and implicate that Jon was also a news person and that he was calling the kettle a pot-head and, if that wasn't sensational enough that Jon Stewart was one of Kerry's media whores (the whole "he'll appear on your show, but not ours" point).

And then Tucker says:

CARLSON: Jon, Jon, Jon, I'm sorry. I think you're a good comedian. I think your lectures are boring.

Tucker, at this point, just doesn't want to hear anymore. He's done listening, but this is the extent of his.. oh yeah, and then he calls Jon a "butt boy". I didn't hear this... Tucker and Jon were drowned out by the audience. I missed the journalism school insult too. I had to read the transcript.

Another thing that you might have caused you to have a visceral dislike of what Jon said, was that his hands were shaking. Unlike Tucker, he wasn't full of himself. Jon wasn't the most charismatic, so it's harder to want to empathize with him. He looked colder, so it probably seems like he did it not so well.

I think that Jon Stewart went about what he did, in the way that's true to himself. The way that's apart and glaringly different from the comedic method he uses on his show. If you saw the way he spoke about the World Trade Center attack -- his own personal experience and thoughts on it -- on the Daily Show, you would have seen the same Jon, the same forth-rightness... more on the verge of getting a lump in his throat and tearing up though. He made me feel uncomfortable watching TV then. I'm guessing that he made you uncomfortable today.
 

Jak140

Member
Question for Loki: Can you give an example of how he might have more civilly made his point on Crossfire? And even then, can you make the contention that you could come off that collected without complete premeditation and under the pressure the hosts put on him? I'll agree that Stewart came off more irate than usually, but I consider it forgivable because he is infact human. And because he is human, he does not function on intellect alone and has emotions to contend with.

Put simply, it's easier for you to criticize his demeanor because you are an outside observer who fails to make any attempt at empathy.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
God fucking dammit......bittorrent is the bane of my existence. Any mirrors?

-edit-
nevermind, just checked weather.com for Hell and it's freezing.....I'm actually downloading a torrent file.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Holy crap....he's really shitting on them. But he's not really offering any real criticism or examples...yet (8:50 in).
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
I wasn't that impressed, honestly. It wasn't so much that he was being an ass, but he didn't do a thing to back up his statements when he probably could have.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
JoshuaJSlone said:
But that's what those shows are built on.

That may very well be...but I don't watch them, so how would I know? Point taken, however.


Sergenth:

I didn't see the show, only read the transcript in this topic, so much of what you described (in terms of his physical aspect during the appearance) is lost on me. Yes, obviously I felt many of Carlson's comments to be quite out of line as well, but I felt that Stewart initiated the ill-will based on the exchange I read. Like I said, maybe the hypocrisy of them trying to call him out on his softball questions for politcians when they are anything but a tool of legitimate debate and analysis themselves just set him off and compelled him to point out their failings in that regard. I dunno. Also, as I mentioned earlier, if there is a known climate of hostility on the show, or an environment where it's "he who shouts loudest gets heard" (which apparently there is judging by everyone's comments), then that obviously mitigates my criticism.


Question for Loki: Can you give an example of how he might have more civilly made his point on Crossfire? And even then, can you make the contention that you could come off that collected without complete premeditation and under the pressure the hosts put on him? I'll agree that Stewart came off more irate than usually, but I consider it forgivable because he is infact human. And because he is human, he does not function on intellect alone and has emotions to contend with.

Put simply, it's easier for you to criticize his demeanor because you are an outside observer who fails to make any attempt at empathy.

Yes, that's it-- I am a heartless man devoid of empathy. You've figured me out. Man, you guys are relentless; I guess it must seem as if I'm tearing down one of your sacred cows or something, when in fact that could not be further from the truth. I made my comments based on a transcipt and without prior knowledge of the format or climate of the show. If you want to jump on me for that, then that's your prerogative. But contrary to what you might think, I am entitled to my opinion, and that opinion holds across the board for everyone of every political persuasion. I just did not think that such a tack was productive or proper. Certain things have since been pointed out to me which obviously color my feelings on the matter, and I have been very forthright in admitting as much; if you want me to just say "ok, you're all right-- it was totally proper that he behaved in such a manner" then you'll be waiting a very long time. Like I said, these other factors make his conduct more reasonable-- it does not make it totally reasonable imo.


Sorry if it disturbs you that people have different opinions as to what constitutes proper social conduct, regardless of circumstance (except in extreme cases, obviously, of which I did not necessarily feel this to be one, despite the fact that these extenuating circumstances DO, in fact, change my perception of what transpired to a great degree). As for the particulars of the "Crossfire" environment, like I said, I've never watched it (I've watched maybe 20 minutes of it here and there over the course of my life while channel surfing-- not nearly long enough to form a grounded, settled opinion as to its merits or lack thereof).
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Jon Stewart is paid as a comedian, and his job on the Daily Show is to make fun of corporate media and corporate politicians. that's his civic duty in and of itself, and comedy central isn't the outlet to initiate fair public discourse. CNN is.

He laid it on both sides well for failing their civic duty, and it's true. Crossfire, though bi-partisan, does nothing but serve as a theater of soundbites for corporate politicians. they don't strive to include third-party candidates, nor does it expound on anything outside of quick little jabs and facts.
 
:lol They've got some vietnam vet on Hannity and Colmes to defend John Kerry and recycle this Swift Boat shit. Hannity is blabbering along and the guy goes "YOU AREN'T GONNA EDUCATE ME ON SHIT BUDDY! YOU WEREN'T THERE!" Doesn't Hannity know you don't piss off Vietnam vets? He's gonna end up in a bamboo cage with his balls cut off.
 

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
John was PISSED. I loved that. I wish more popular figures like Stewart would stand up for the truth and not take any of the political bullshit. I couldn't believe he said "And you're a dick on any show you're on" or whatever.

:lol :lol

classic shit.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
scorcho said:
Jon Stewart is paid as a comedian, and his job on the Daily Show is to make fun of corporate media and corporate politicians. that's his civic duty in and of itself, and comedy central isn't the outlet to initiate fair public discourse. CNN is.

He laid it on both sides well for failing their civic duty, and it's true. Crossfire, though bi-partisan, does nothing but serve as a theater of soundbites for corporate politicians. they don't strive to include third-party candidates, nor does it expound on anything outside of quick little jabs and facts.

Again, I've never watched the show, so if that was directed at me, then it's a bit misguided, however true (and given the state of the media in general, I'm sure it's quite true). Of course, if that wasn't directed at me, carry on. :D
 
"You guys are partisan...what do you call it...HACKS."
:lol Stewart was on a fucking roll. The funny part is that Tucker Carlson doesn't seem to realize that he was getting a new asshole torn and thinks its all schtick or something.
 

DMczaf

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
"You guys are partisan...what do you call it...HACKS."
:lol Stewart was on a fucking roll. The funny part is that Tucker Carlson doesn't seem to realize that he was getting a new asshole torn and thinks its all schtick or something.

Everytime Stewart ripped him he would say something about him only being funny on his own show :lol
 

Sergenth

Member
Loki sed:
I didn't see the show, only read the transcript in this topic, so much of what you described (in terms of his physical aspect during the appearance) is lost on me.

Some things about Jon's demeanor.

- he brought the whoop-ass with him -- he called the show garbage without any prompting by Begala or Carlson. I was shocked too. Jon stewart coming out and saying the show is useless? Wow! Tucker was more shocked than I though. Tucker was apoplectic!

- he was stone-faced, surely feeling some deep-felt anger, but he spoke in a very deliberate manner - slow vowel pronunciations -- as if he were were reluctant to speak so plainly to Tucker's face. In no way was Jon loud, obnoxious, or argumentive. It wasn't a condescending tone either... more like somebody telling you that "well.... uh.... you suck... uhm... bigtime. You suck and you need to stop" at your intervention, as if it pains him to say it. I'd say that inside, he was determined NOT to argue, not to play their "talk-over each other game", and he utilized a demeanor to make that clear, and to also confuse Tucker for a bit, who really only knows how to respond to exasperated, "No no! You're getting it all wrong Tucker! Am I talking to a brick wall? Are you on crack?!" rebuttals... because that's the format of the show normally. Tucker could then talk over that, and Tucker would feel like he's doing his job.

If you watch the clip, Jon won't seem like some bellicose ass. More like a jaded guy who really doesn't want to be on the show, but it's kinda for the book tour, so he'll take one for the team, but he might as well say exactly what he thinks while he's there, knowing he'll never be invited back. :) It was absolute disdain that Jon showed, but I think you would like the way it looked.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Sergenth said:
If you watch the clip, Jon won't seem like some bellicose ass. More like a jaded guy who really doesn't want to be on the show, but it's kinda for the book tour, so he'll take one for the team, but he might as well say exactly what he thinks while he's there, knowing he'll never be invited back. :) It was absolute disdain that Jon showed, but I think you would like the way it looked.

That won't happen, since I'm on dialup. :p Like I said, though, even from the transcript, it definitely seemed out of character for Stewart, who I always perceived as an amiable guy, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's the case (what you mentioned).
 
I think Stewart got pissier as the show went along because it became apparent that Begalla and Bowtie Boy just wanted him to be their "monkey" (as Stewart put it) and crack jokes rather than have a serious discussion.
 

Jak140

Member
Loki said:
Yes, that's it-- I am a heartless man devoid of empathy. You've figured me out. Man, you guys are relentless; I guess it must seem as if I'm tearing down one of your sacred cows or something, when in fact that could not be further from the truth. I made my comments based on a transcipt and without prior knowledge of the format or climate of the show. If you want to jump on me for that, then that's your prerogative. But contrary to what you might think, I am entitled to my opinion, and that opinion holds across the board for everyone of every political persuasion. I just did not think that such a tack was productive or proper. Certain things have since been pointed out to me which obviously color my feelings on the matter, and I have been very forthright in admitting as much; if you want me to just say "ok, you're all right-- it was totally proper that he behaved in such a manner" then you'll be waiting a very long time. Like I said, these other factors make his conduct more reasonable-- it does not make it totally reasonable imo.


Sorry if it disturbs you that people have different opinions as to what constitutes proper social conduct, regardless of circumstance (except in extreme cases, obviously, of which I did not necessarily feel this to be one, despite the fact that these extenuating circumstances DO, in fact, change my perception of what transpired to a great degree). As for the particulars of the "Crossfire" environment, like I said, I've never watched it (I've watched maybe 20 minutes of it here and there over the course of my life while channel surfing-- not nearly long enough to form a grounded, settled opinion as to its merits or lack thereof).

First of all, I did not say you were devoid of empathy, I merely argued that I think you did not use it in this situation. I'm of the opinion that it is human to become rattled in an certain situations, and that what constitues that type of situation for one person may not for another. Obviously you think otherwise, but is it so difficult to not expect someone else to react exactly how you would have in the same situation? Certainly there must be some situation in which you would lose your cool, but in which someone of John Stewart's personality type would remain calm. If that is true, is it not reasonable to expect that this might be an example of the opposite? Wouldn't it be better to accept that people sometimes lose their composure under different pressures, than to let a single demonstration of anxiety change your opinion of someone?
 
Holy crap. Just watched the clip from iFilms...

My respect for John Steward just went through the roof. He just said on Crossfire what I'm constantly bitching about to my dad; that a lot of the commentary and "debate" you see on TV or hear on the radio is really just recycled party rhetoric. Moreover, he also brought up something that people mention here all the time and I agree with completely; that the Daily Show tends to mock and criticize politicians whereas the "real" media is really just an outlet for the respective parties' PR statements.

I also thought it was awesome when he said, "I'm not going to be your monkey".

Kudos to him.
 

pnjtony

Member
People can complain that Stewart was rude, angry, out of line or what have you, but also understand the the crossfire guys without a doubt had material they intended to ambush stewart with as well.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Ninja Scooter said:
I think Stewart got pissier as the show went along because it became apparent that Begalla and Bowtie Boy just wanted him to be their "monkey" (as Stewart put it) and crack jokes rather than have a serious discussion.

I just watched the streaming video, and I'd tend to agree with you. He seemed to be earnestly imploring them to do their civic duty, as opposed to belittling them for no reason. The "you're a dick" comment was a bit over the top (it was so quick and muddled that I barely heard it), but we all have our moments. On the whole, it was a lot more reasonable in motion than it was on paper. Man, when he said "no, I'm not going to be your monkey", you could literally cut the tension in the air with a knife lol.


I also love how that site characterizes the clip:

"Jon Stewart's brutal exchange with CNN host"

and

"Daily Show anchor Jon Stewart browbeats CNN's Tucker Carlson over journalism ethics on Crossfire"

:lol


Wouldn't it be better to accept that people sometimes lose their composure under different pressures, than to let a single demonstration of anxiety change your opinion of someone?

It didn't "change my opinion of him" entirely, it just colored it a bit. Like I said, after viewing the streaming clip, it is much more understandable and forgiveable.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
pnjtony said:
People can complain that Stewart was rude, angry, out of line or what have you, but also understand the the crossfire guys without a doubt had material they intended to ambush stewart with as well.
Which should be fairly evident considering the clip they chose where Stewart mocked Kerry's appearance on Regis and Kelly combined with the slide that Carlson had.

They may have said otherwise, but both Begala and Carlson certainly intended on confronting Stewart with a few things.
 
pnjtony said:
People can complain that Stewart was rude, angry, out of line or what have you, but also understand the the crossfire guys without a doubt had material they intended to ambush stewart with as well.

On the contrary, I didn't think he was rude or angry at all. If anything, the joker in the bow tie was rude for constantly trying to cut him off and interrupt as well as imply that he was just supposed to be there to crack some jokes. I thought that was a fucked up thing to say.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
The Shadow said:
On the contrary, I didn't think he was rude or angry at all. If anything, the joker in the bow tie was rude for constantly trying to cut him off and interrupt as well as imply that he was just supposed to be there to crack some jokes. I thought that was a fucked up thing to say.
He's not saying you should say he was any of that, but to those who are going to, they also have to acknowledge that it's obvious Begala and Carlson weren't going to play nicely either.

The Shadow - Yeah, there's torrents up above of the entire Jon Stewart segment.
 

Fifty

Member
The Shadow said:
Is there a clip of the whole thing? I'll have to look for it. I didn't even know the iFilms clip was cut up.


I downloaded it via the above link...I'm not sure about the length of the ifilms file, I just meant that since I had only seen part of it live, seeing all of it was satisfying.

It's hilarious watching Bowtie and his fake laughter try and get through it without yelling.

:lol @ Jon's "Well that went great" after they cut to the ending music.
 
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