Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
Is it a debacle if he did it on purpose? He apparently hates Joker fans. He won't tank another film on purpose
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Revolutionary
Member
Your only issue with The Batman is a deleted scene? The Batman has a lot of issues, but a deleted scene is not one of them. On the contrary, actually... because they had the foresight to remove it from the movie, they have the option to do something different with Joker in the future if they want to.
Hotel Security
Member
Agreed. I've seen the scene. It's deleted because it's completely pointless and no new information is divulged...it only exists to show off the creepy version of the Joker. I'm glad it was yanked. I didn't mind his appearance at the end, really...it was short and didn't mean much.
What?
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Yeah its a debacle because its turned out to be a terrible investment of a whole lot of money. Not only has it not turned the profit they hoped for, its damaged investor confidence, brand value, and consumer interest in their upcoming slate.
Somebody has to carry the blame for all that.
Ulysses 31
Gold Member
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
A thousand nerds all get ready to explain what that budget figure doesn't include and how the film is nowhere near break even.
RAÏSanÏa
Member
With Joker 2 coming to streaming soon, the recent article by Alan Moore about fan culture has some interesting relevant observations.
It has helped adjust the lens of how I'm going to approach watching the film.
The age demo connected to fan behaviors under the microscope makes the casting choice for a Joker about fan culture perfect for breaking down fanatical song and dance displays.
"
Concerning the word “fan”, I first encountered this contraction of “fanatic” during childhood, in a television documentary on the phenomenon. All I remember is the weary spouse of a woman devoted to the late Jim Reeves, sitting in a family home that had become a mausoleum of memorabilia, and mournfully accepting that his wife had only married him because his name happened to be James Reeves. Soon after that, the word passed into common usage, although only in the milder sense of somebody quite liking something, and without the connotations of a person listening to Distant Drums on endless replay with the curtains drawn, or a cultist running wild-eyed from the treeline waving a machete. “Fan”, then, meant merely “enthusiast”, but sounded less Edwardian.
...
I looked back, after an internet and some few decades, fandom was a very different animal.
An older animal for one thing, with a median age in its late 40s, fed, presumably, by a nostalgia that its energetic predecessor was too young to suffer from. And while the vulgar comic story was originally proffered solely to the working classes, soaring retail prices had precluded any audience save the more affluent; had gentrified a previously bustling and lively cultural slum neighbourhood. This boost in fandom’s age and status possibly explains its current sense of privilege, its tendency to carp and cavil rather than contribute or create. I speak only of comics fandom here, but have gained the impression that this reflexive belligerence ... is now a part of many fan communities. My 14-year-old grandson tells me older Pokémon aficionados can display the same febrile disgruntlement. Is this a case of those unwilling to outgrow childhood enthusiasms, possibly because these anchor them to happier and less complex times, who now feel they should be sole arbiters of their pursuit?
There are, of course, entirely benign fandoms, networks of cooperative individuals who quite like the same thing, can chat with others sharing the same pastime and, importantly, provide support for one another in difficult times. These healthy subcultures, however, are less likely to impact on society in the same way that the more strident and presumptuous fandoms have managed. Unnervingly rapidly, our culture has become a fan-based landscape that the rest of us are merely living in. Our entertainments may be cancelled prematurely through an adverse fan reaction...
An enthusiasm that is fertile and productive can enrich life and society, just as displacing personal frustrations into venomous tirades about your boyhood hobby can devalue them. Quite liking something is OK. You don’t need the machete or the megaphone.
"
*link
Pegasus Actual
Gold Member
^
poodaddy
Member
Fake
Member
Modern journalism in a nutshell.
Alan Moore isn't a journalist though?
Doom85
Gold Member
Oh come on, why so nitpicky? Next you’ll be saying Alan Moore, a 70 year old man, isn’t “modern” either!
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Domestically US/Canada, Joker 2 and Transformers One will end up with around the same gate receipts (ballpark $60M). Both movies about the same sales, theatre count and sales/theatre. Joker 2 has done much better internationally though.
But still, pretty crazy a Transformers cartoon will do as well as Joker 2 in US/Canada.
-2-Full.jpg)
www.the-numbers.com
But still, pretty crazy a Transformers cartoon will do as well as Joker 2 in US/Canada.
The Numbers - Weekend Box Office Chart for October 25, 2024
Weekend Domestic Box Office Chart for the weekend of October 25, 2024
www.the-numbers.com
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Someone’s triggered^
GateofD
Member
I don't mind that its a 'musical' I can love musicals
But the singing sucked, the songs sucks, the lyrics had nearly nothing to do with the scene that preceded it or shed new light on the character.
I just pretend this one never existed and just keep my good memories of the first one.
But the singing sucked, the songs sucks, the lyrics had nearly nothing to do with the scene that preceded it or shed new light on the character.
I just pretend this one never existed and just keep my good memories of the first one.
poodaddy
Member
How much do you hate yourself? The answer to this question is essential to answering your initial question.
StueyDuck
Member
That bad hey
Angry_Megalodon
Member
Quite the opposite, it takes extreme cowardice and malice to do what he did.
He scammed Warner, secured a fat paycheck, trolled the fanbase using an IP that doesn't belong to him just to feed his massive ego.
Francis Ford Coppola was brave. Todd Philips is just a spineless scumbag. Any creator that goes against fans doesn't belong in the entertainment industry.
We'll see what his follow up is. More of the same towards "toxic fans" or something totally different. He's not a director i personally follow much so I'm certainly not waiting with baited breath for his next gig.
poodaddy
Member
Yyyyuuuuuup
StueyDuck
Member
I think the weekend maybe me and the lady will give it a few mins but yeah I'm not expecting much.
I d said before it's a completely pointless cash grab sequel. So I don't have any positive expectations
b0uncyfr0
Member
Just finished it - its definitely a few musicals too much for me. I was expecting it to be bad but its just really different. The last 25 minutes bumped it up to a 5/10 for me.
Maybe its just a joke - maybe there is a real Joker 2 coming in 2 years..?
They cant just leave it at that, right...
Maybe its just a joke - maybe there is a real Joker 2 coming in 2 years..?
They cant just leave it at that, right...
cormack12
Gold Member
Just saw it, not really sure what I'm meant to take from it, except maybe the 'origin' story of the 'real' joker.
I have no idea which sections were real, which cues delineated reality from fantasy (except the obvious scenes like the stage and gun), or who was actually alive when.
Also, when he was getting beaten, did the cops
I have no idea which sections were real, which cues delineated reality from fantasy (except the obvious scenes like the stage and gun), or who was actually alive when.
Also, when he was getting beaten, did the cops
rape or sodomise him?
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
This is what I've been saying. Joker fans deserve this film.
deadline.com
Quentin Tarantino Praises ‘Joker: Folie À Deux’ & Todd Phillips, Calls Film A “F*** You” To Hollywood & Comic Book Fans
Quentin Tarantino is praising Todd Phillips and Joker: Folie à Deux after the Warner Bros. film bombed at the box office.
deadline.com
Angry_Megalodon
Member
This is what I've been saying. Joker fans deserve this film.
Quentin Tarantino Praises ‘Joker: Folie À Deux’ & Todd Phillips, Calls Film A “F*** You” To Hollywood & Comic Book Fans
Quentin Tarantino is praising Todd Phillips and Joker: Folie à Deux after the Warner Bros. film bombed at the box office.
Why, though. It seems spiteful and ungrateful. Ungrateful people are entitled bitches. It's fans who pay their bills. Who else?
Imagine G.R.R. Martin killing every character in his next book just because he's fed up with fans.
In the case of Tood Philips it's much worse, because he's pissing off a fandom he got from others.
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AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
People are petty. When saying nothing would be best they cut to the quick.This is what I've been saying. Joker fans deserve this film.
Quentin Tarantino Praises ‘Joker: Folie À Deux’ & Todd Phillips, Calls Film A “F*** You” To Hollywood & Comic Book Fans
Quentin Tarantino is praising Todd Phillips and Joker: Folie à Deux after the Warner Bros. film bombed at the box office.
Doom85
Gold Member
This is what I've been saying. Joker fans deserve this film.
Quentin Tarantino Praises ‘Joker: Folie À Deux’ & Todd Phillips, Calls Film A “F*** You” To Hollywood & Comic Book Fans
Quentin Tarantino is praising Todd Phillips and Joker: Folie à Deux after the Warner Bros. film bombed at the box office.
They could have easily made a sequel that mocks people who idolize the Joker without disrespecting the character and general fans, and also avoid making the film a slog and feel pointless.
Because they already did so in the first film. When Murray (Robert De Niro) criticizes everything Arthur did and debunks the notion that his hard life and mental struggles justify murdering anyone, Arthur does not have a comeback for that, he just laughs and asks if Murray wants to hear another joke, and then rants like a lunatic that Murray mocking him for his standup justifies being murdered which anyone with even half a brain cell would know is bullshit (also, Arthur is a huge fan of Murray’s show, so he knows Murray takes swings at everyone, only drawing the line at mocking genuine tragedies like deaths, cancer, etc. Yet Arthur is offended Murray mocked his standup even though Murray would have no knowledge of Arthur’s condition. When he’s brought on to the show, Arthur never once explains his mental condition, so he proceeds to judge and murder Murray over something that Murray always did and had no knowledge of why Arthur should be exempt. It shows Arthur values killing when he’s hurt rather than giving people a chance, hence his weak “everyone is awful” generalization which Murray himself says is not true).
Furthermore, when Murray brings up how somebody died just this morning (the Joker supporter who fought the two police officers, while they were pursuing Arthur, gets shot fatally), Arthur just laughs and Murray says that Arthur doesn’t care and Arthur doesn’t deny this, just admitting he’s tired of holding back killing people he thinks are awful thus ending any moral justification he might have (because by that “logic”, Thomas Wayne could be justified in killing Arthur, after all, Arthur, a total stranger, approached Bruce, a child, and touched his face, and then proceeded to assault Alfred). The fact that Arthur does not care if one of his supporters was killed shows his lack of empathy for other people’s struggles, only himself, because he’s so focused on his own struggles.
They could have reinforced this in a sequel far better without derailing the character.
Have Arthur work with but ultimately backstab Harley and his followers near the end, making most of the latter lose faith in him. Have Arthur go out swinging against the police rather than dying anticlimactically. Have Harley captured and back in Arkham saying, “Arthur wasn’t the Joker…or rather, he alone wasn’t. The Joker is an idea, a belief, and you can’t kill that so easily.” And then we see the inmate who had popped up here and there in his cell, laughing maniacally, and producing a knife to begin carving his face into that all-too-familiar smile…..
There. I just gave a basic outline to follow, at least for the climax, on how to do a sequel that only mocks the crazies who think Arthur was justified in what he did in the first film but does not mock the people who are simply fans of the character. It’s really not that difficult to pull off.
But no, the director, writers, etc. went for a film designed to appeal to basically no one who liked the first film for whatever reason.
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RAÏSanÏa
Member
I thought the movie was pretty good. And that it wasn't specifically against fans. In that sense, it seemed to be more broadly against co-opting influencers.
As someone that has been following Agatha since early development I had a pretty good idea of the level of content that was coming, like with Andor early on. That the haters trying to reflexively tear down the show were going to get streamrolled and look stupid if they tried to blindly do what they did with Acolyte. But that was only a lesson from the first trial, I hope that Disney and its showrunners are able to tell the difference in the fandom from those that helped build and shape success from those that want to take that success and use it for themselves.
Moore's story about Mrs. James Reeves helped with understanding Harley.
The film not being more explicit about what the guards did, but opening the door by removing clothes. It works to leave that question, but also as a commentary on the audience not being mature enough to handle it if shown. It made me ugly laugh at what would've been an inappropriate moment in a full theater.
As someone that has been following Agatha since early development I had a pretty good idea of the level of content that was coming, like with Andor early on. That the haters trying to reflexively tear down the show were going to get streamrolled and look stupid if they tried to blindly do what they did with Acolyte. But that was only a lesson from the first trial, I hope that Disney and its showrunners are able to tell the difference in the fandom from those that helped build and shape success from those that want to take that success and use it for themselves.
Moore's story about Mrs. James Reeves helped with understanding Harley.
The film not being more explicit about what the guards did, but opening the door by removing clothes. It works to leave that question, but also as a commentary on the audience not being mature enough to handle it if shown. It made me ugly laugh at what would've been an inappropriate moment in a full theater.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Jomer 2 at $204M total globally. US/Can domestic sales are pretty much dead going forward as it's down to around 300 theatres now. Foreign sales are better. At best, maybe it tops out at $210M if international theatres keep going a bit.
-1-Full.jpg)
www.the-numbers.com
As a comparison, Joker 1 did almost $1.1 billion. It had cleared $200M after only 1 full week of global sales.
Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) - Financial Information
Financial analysis of Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) including budget, domestic and international box office gross, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, total earnings and profitability.
www.the-numbers.com
As a comparison, Joker 1 did almost $1.1 billion. It had cleared $200M after only 1 full week of global sales.
Doom85
Gold Member
Jomer 2 at $204M total globally. US/Can domestic sales are pretty much dead going forward as it's down to around 300 theatres now. Foreign sales are better. At best, maybe it tops out at $210M if international theatres keep going a bit.
Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) - Financial Information
Financial analysis of Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) including budget, domestic and international box office gross, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, total earnings and profitability.
As a comparison, Joker 1 did almost $1.1 billion. It had cleared $200M after only 1 full week of global sales.
Venom 3 has also already passed it by quite a bit in domestic and global despite widely being considered the weakest of the trilogy.
Ribi
Member
That's when DVD sales and streaming rights come in and it'll break evenJomer 2 at $204M total globally. US/Can domestic sales are pretty much dead going forward as it's down to around 300 theatres now. Foreign sales are better. At best, maybe it tops out at $210M if international theatres keep going a bit.
Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) - Financial Information
Financial analysis of Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) including budget, domestic and international box office gross, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, total earnings and profitability.
As a comparison, Joker 1 did almost $1.1 billion. It had cleared $200M after only 1 full week of global sales.
No one is gonna buy a DVD of this film!
The Rise, Fall, and (Slight) Rise of DVDs. A Statistical Analysis
The death and second life of physical media.
www.statsignificant.com
DVDs are basically dead except for collectors. No one is gonna digitally rent this film because that's a low, flat market as well. WB releasing it on Max won't actually generate ANY money because this film is very unlikely to drive subs.
Movies today live and DIE based on the box office. There is very little "Second life" for them because streaming is not a great source of $$$ for specific projects (though that may change if the streamer has to pay out per view to the creators or ads become more prevalent.
DKehoe
Member
Toons
Member
With Joker 2 coming to streaming soon, the recent article by Alan Moore about fan culture has some interesting relevant observations.
It has helped adjust the lens of how I'm going to approach watching the film.
The age demo connected to fan behaviors under the microscope makes the casting choice for a Joker about fan culture perfect for breaking down fanatical song and dance displays.
"
Concerning the word “fan”, I first encountered this contraction of “fanatic” during childhood, in a television documentary on the phenomenon. All I remember is the weary spouse of a woman devoted to the late Jim Reeves, sitting in a family home that had become a mausoleum of memorabilia, and mournfully accepting that his wife had only married him because his name happened to be James Reeves. Soon after that, the word passed into common usage, although only in the milder sense of somebody quite liking something, and without the connotations of a person listening to Distant Drums on endless replay with the curtains drawn, or a cultist running wild-eyed from the treeline waving a machete. “Fan”, then, meant merely “enthusiast”, but sounded less Edwardian.
...
I looked back, after an internet and some few decades, fandom was a very different animal.
An older animal for one thing, with a median age in its late 40s, fed, presumably, by a nostalgia that its energetic predecessor was too young to suffer from. And while the vulgar comic story was originally proffered solely to the working classes, soaring retail prices had precluded any audience save the more affluent; had gentrified a previously bustling and lively cultural slum neighbourhood. This boost in fandom’s age and status possibly explains its current sense of privilege, its tendency to carp and cavil rather than contribute or create. I speak only of comics fandom here, but have gained the impression that this reflexive belligerence ... is now a part of many fan communities. My 14-year-old grandson tells me older Pokémon aficionados can display the same febrile disgruntlement. Is this a case of those unwilling to outgrow childhood enthusiasms, possibly because these anchor them to happier and less complex times, who now feel they should be sole arbiters of their pursuit?
There are, of course, entirely benign fandoms, networks of cooperative individuals who quite like the same thing, can chat with others sharing the same pastime and, importantly, provide support for one another in difficult times. These healthy subcultures, however, are less likely to impact on society in the same way that the more strident and presumptuous fandoms have managed. Unnervingly rapidly, our culture has become a fan-based landscape that the rest of us are merely living in. Our entertainments may be cancelled prematurely through an adverse fan reaction...
An enthusiasm that is fertile and productive can enrich life and society, just as displacing personal frustrations into venomous tirades about your boyhood hobby can devalue them. Quite liking something is OK. You don’t need the machete or the megaphone.
"
*link
Alan Moore is smarter than most, one of the most respected authors in comics, and has experienced what he's talking about first hand.
Theres many things I disagree with him on, but this isn't one of them. When he speaks you should listen.
We are way, way too obsessed with trying to recapture a lost vestige of our collective youth rather than to build foundations that will define further youth. And that goes for far more than just comics.
And if you think he said "nothing" in that post, my most polite response would be to suggest reading the paragraphs again but with a thesaurus this time.
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