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[Sanjuro]

Let's be clear here, rehabilitation was never an option at any point.

 

[benjipwns]

Exactly. I don't want him to have an epiphany or be rehabilitated. I do not wish him to discover a reason or purpose for his continued life. I do not think he deserves to find any future satisfaction in any meager thing he may do or accomplish in super max. He stole the dreams and lives of a great number of people. He came into the embrace of this country and was given special treatment because of his circumstances, and then repaid the people who welcomed him with blood and terror. He doesn't deserve a chance at redemption.

There's something amusing about your username here in a discussion regarding the value of the death penalty.

 

[InsaneZero]

Right. And that's a really old school way of thought. Eye for an eye kind of mindset.

You'd think we'd be past this by now, especially in the USA. Or maybe I think too well of our country.

A significant portion of our population values emotion over reason to the extent that over half of our highest law-making body is composed of their representatives. If anything, I don't expect to move forward for a long while.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Yes. I mean, from a practical basis I very highly doubt that he could be rehabilitated, so really it would be effectively the same as life in prison given he'd be rejected at every review; but yes, I would.

Norway thinks they can rehabilitate anyone in under 20 years, since thats their max sentence. The mass murderer in Oslo will be free in about 15 years. Dzhokhar can be rehabilitated, but I don't think he deserves that opportunity after what he did. If we could go back in time and put Hitler on trial, I would not sentence him to rehab thats for sure

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is always confusing to me the "I doubt X". What expertise do you have on rehabilitation?

Absolutely none, but my layman's best guess is that it wouldn't work.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Absolutely none, but my layman's best guess is that it wouldn't work.

It's confusing. You have zero knowledge of rehabilitation and yet you still believe it does not work on him. Don't you think this is clouding your judgement on situations like this?

 

[orochi91]

Death penalty is likely at this point.

He's been found guilty of all charges.

 

[FiggyCal]

What else should we do with these people? People like Manson, McVeigh, Tsarnaev, Breivik should not be allowed to sit in jail for the rest of their lives disseminating more hateful thoughts and attracting more insane followers. Not to mention what we should do with international criminals like bin Laden, Hitler, etc. if we were to ever capture them alive. I don't think we should be executing people for any kind of isolated crime but when we're talking about mass murderers who unquestionably committed their crimes, they should be killed.

This isn't "bloodlust." Hell all the people arguing how a lifetime in prison being possibly beaten, raped, or in solitary come off as way more vengeful to me. I fortunately have no personal attachment to anyone who was hurt or killed in Boston. I don't have a lot of personal emotions about that event. There's just no reason to keep these people alive, and as we have seen in the past a good number of them will just continue to spread their horrible ideals from their jail cell, or even worse siring children from prison (e.g. Tex Watson). The world will be better off without them.

I hope no one here that makes the argument that life in prison would be a worse punishment actually believes that. We should be hopeful when someone gets put on death row that his sentence will be reduced to life in prison because it's more humane. It doesn't make sense that one person would argue that and then go on to say that we should hope he gets life in prison because he'll be raped, assaulted, and so on.

At the same time; no it's not nearly as blood thirsty. In one scenario, he will most definitely be killed. Period. You can't get more bloodthirsty and vengeful then hoping for someone's death.

 

[Docflem]

Rehabilitation doesn't seem to exist in the US prison system, so you're right that's not an option.

Wait a second here, in what country do you think this guy would ever see the outside world again?

 

[Newt]

I actually support the death penalty, but it doesn't seem like a good fit in this case.

Death penalty is probably what the kid wants.

 

[meltingparappa]

He came into the embrace of this country and was given special treatment because of his circumstances, and then repaid the people who welcomed him with blood and terror. He doesn't deserve a chance at redemption.

If that plays any factor at all into a reasoning for capital punishment then that feels like straight up nationalism.

Why do the politics of the borders between countries have anything to do with mass murder?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

A significant portion of our population values emotion over reason to the extent that over half of our highest law-making body is composed of their representatives. If anything, I don't expect to move forward for a long while.

This is basically it, it's pure emotion, with no concept of a bigger picture of some tragic shit that capital punishment has accounted for. Any kind of, "but in this instance..." doesn't work when you think about it in those terms, either it's gone completely or an incredibly imperfect thing will remain on the table.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Norway thinks they can rehabilitate anyone in under 20 years, since thats their max sentence. The mass murderer in Oslo will be free in about 15 years. Dzhokhar can be rehabilitated, but I don't think he deserves that opportunity after what he did. If we could go back in time and put Hitler on trial, I would not sentence him to rehab thats for sure

From my admittedly thin knowledge of the Norweigian justice system, that's not quite how it works. Their maximum sentence is the maximum sentence one can go without review. At the end of your sentence, you are entitled to a review, and you are entitled to a further one every five years after that. You still have to be considered no threat to the public by that review, or you are not released. I think the chance that any review panel considering Breivik safe to release is very low indeed.

It's confusing. You have zero knowledge of rehabilitation and yet you still believe it does not work on him. Don't you think this is clouding your judgement on situations like this?

Not particularly. Suppose I'm wrong, and he can be rehabilitated. If that's so, the case for trying to rehabilitate him becomes even stronger. I'm saying we should try even though I think it is unlikely; if it is likely I'd be even more convinced of the rightness of doing it.

 

[Delta Assault]

Wait a second here, in what country do you think this guy would ever see the outside world again?

Maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years or something. I remember that coming up when Anders Breivig was being sentenced for killing 77 people.

 

[TemplaerDude]

So basically make a judgement call outside of reality? Nothing happens in a vacuum and the crime absolutely matters.

Im not even necessarily for the death penalty in this case but I dont understand this type of thinking.

You have adeptly ignored my points, misconstrued my words and clearly have no interest in even attempting to think about anything I'm saying. Congratulations.

Oh, it's not very hard. You can think of a lot of ways. For example, Classical Liberalism of the Enlightenment agreed that the freedom and liberty of all individuals was fundamental to human morality. It was generally agreed to be pursuant to "the good life". This is where philosophies like utilitarianism were born from. A utilitarian could argue that freedom of individuals flourishes if he could demonstrate that killing someone like Tsarnaev could reduce the amount of atrocities in society. Whether or not that's true, I don't know - but the idea of a "better conscience" is decidedly a question of ethics.

I would gladly argue any attempt made to justify the murder of any other human being, but arguing personal ethics is usually akin to smacking your head on a wall and I suppose that is all this was ever going to lead to.

 

[googleplex]

Why should we be humane to him?

Because WE are human.

But I think he should be imprisoned for life because I don't want him to become a martyr.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

its going to be a bit of both...
he will get the death penalty
but will end up spending the next 10-15 years going through various drawn out appeals
until he is finally put down.

 

[StanleyStutters]

I'm usually against the death penalty, but it is a tough call for me in this situation. He bombed a major city and changed the lives of countless people with his actions. When it comes to attacks like this, I'm torn on what should happen. If his only options are lifetime in solitary or the death penalty, I think the death penalty would actually be the more humane choice.

 

[benjipwns]

Maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years or something. I remember that coming up when Anders Breivig was being sentenced for killing 77 people.

He's not seeing the outside world, they have a "loophole" that allows them to give effective life sentences.

 

[LyleLanley]

Maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years or something. I remember that coming up when Anders Breivig was being sentenced for killing 77 people.

As Crab pointed out in the post above yours, while Breivik is sentence for only 21 years his sentence can be extended in 5 year increments indefinitely. From what I've read it's very unlikely that he'll ever be allowed back into society.

 

[Fenderputty]

To be clear for extreme crimes, I'm fine with prison terms being for punishment rather than rehab. Not everyone deserves rehab even though I don't think we have the moral authority to decide death.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

The fact that some of you think rehabilitation should be an option and/or would work on this guy are living in a fantasy world. He doesn't deserve to be rehabilitated. Use that expertise on others who didn't blatantly murder 3 people and injure a couple of hundred.

 

[LyleLanley]

The fact that some of you think rehabilitation should be an option and/or would work on this guy are living in a fantasy world. He doesn't deserve to be rehabilitated. Use that expertise on others who didn't blatantly murder 17 people.

17 people?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Not particularly. Suppose I'm wrong, and he can be rehabilitated. If that's so, the case for trying to rehabilitate him becomes even stronger. I'm saying we should try even though I think it is unlikely; if it is likely I'd be even more convinced of the rightness of doing it.

This makes more sense than the previous exchange.

 

[Delta Assault]

He's not seeing the outside world, they have a "loophole" that allows them to give effective life sentences.

Sure, if the review board chooses to. But who knows what those people might decide to do. If Breivig plays the part of the repentant sinner, they might just let him out.

 

[Emerson]

I hope no one here that makes the argument that life in prison would be a worse punishment actually believes that. We should be hopeful when someone gets put on death row that his sentence will be reduced to life in prison because it's more humane. It doesn't make sense that one person would argue that and then go on to say that we should hope he gets life in prison because he'll be raped, assaulted, and so on.

At the same time; no it's not nearly as blood thirsty. In one scenario, he will most definitely be killed. Period. You can't get more bloodthirsty and vengeful then hoping for someone's death.

To say someone is bloodthirsty or vengeful implies a certain amount of emotion. I do not hope he is killed. If they execute him, I will not smile or cheer or pump my fist. I will genuinely think "OK, that's probably better for the world overall" and move on with my life. If he stays in prison there's a good chance he'll continue to harm the world in smaller ways as many such killers have done in the past.

I don't think anything about that rational appraisal of the situation is bloodthirsty. I just see only harm in this man being allowed to continue living.

 

[benjipwns]

The fact that some of you think rehabilitation should be an option and/or would work on this guy are living in a fantasy world. He doesn't deserve to be rehabilitated. Use that expertise on others who didn't blatantly murder 17 people.

Who were the other 12?

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

17 people?

Amended my original post. I assumed the 17 death penalty charges equated to deaths. My bad.

 

[ATastyMuffin]

But what I don't get is the argument that we should avoid the death penalty because it's lenient and that he should "rot in jail". That doesn't seem consistent. Does that mean that everyone else that gets their death sentence reduced to life in prison are also facing a harsher punishment? We should be in favor of an extended sentence rather than capital punishment because it's more humane, not because we want him to suffer more.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I myself am not deciding my personal choice for a verdict from a punishment/suffering a oriented perspective/, I offered that reasoning for people who tend to evaluate sentences as such.

 

[NullPointer]

To say someone is bloodthirsty or vengeful implies a certain amount of emotion. I do not hope he is killed. If they execute him, I will not smile or cheer or pump my fist. I will genuinely think "OK, that's probably better for the world overall" and move on with my life.

Exactly.

And he's getting his due process here. This isn't Guantanamo.

 

[DrGonzo615]

You have adeptly ignored my points, misconstrued my words and clearly have no interest in even attempting to think about anything I'm saying. Congratulations.

Ah the snarky response of a clearly morally superior person.

I get what you are saying. Taking his life puts blood on societies hands just as much as the murderer in question. We would be just as guilty of murder as he is.

What I am saying is that context always matters.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

Let's be clear here, rehabilitation was never an option at any point.

Yep and it seems like I need to do some research on cost of the death penalty vs life in prison.

 

[Fenderputty]

Exactly.

And he's getting his due process here. This isn't Guantanamo.

Just because distance to the case allows the citizens of the US to not feel much one way or the other doesn't mean the justifications for the death penalty aren't rooted in revenge.

 

[Sanjuro]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

A kick to the balls maybe? That sounds nice.

Yep and it seems like I need to do some research on cost of the death penalty vs life in prison.

I mean, at this stage it would probably make the most sense for the jury to look towards an accountant who has calculated the costs between the both and give them a thumbs up or thumbs down.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

Sure, to place him in a 20 x 20 foot room and put a pressure cooker in the middle of the room. If he dies, he dies. If he loses a limb, he knows the pain felt by a lot of people that day.

 

[FiggyCal]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

God forbid if this was taking place in Saudi Arabia, where he would've been beheaded. Truly, they are the real savages. But not us. Our executions are totally humane.

 

[Pyrrhus]

As Crab pointed out in the post above yours, while Breivik is sentence for only 21 years his sentence can be extended in 5 year increments indefinitely. From what I've read it's very unlikely that he'll ever be allowed back into society.

Breivik was in the news recently because he's screaming that he's being tortured because he's only being allowed to have a Playstation 2 with all ages games like Rayman 2. He's threatening a hunger strike because they don't let him play GTA after murdering how many kids? Fuck that.

If that plays any factor at all into a reasoning for capital punishment then that feels like straight up nationalism.

Why do the politics of the borders between countries have anything to do with mass murder?

One of the reasons he was pissed is that his application for citizenship had not yet been approved. And he idolized the wartorn hellhole that was his ancestral homeland despite not really remembering the place. So nationalism mattered a great deal to him and was a motivator in his attacks.

But you know, I won't lie. I take particular offense to him coming here as a refugee, being given opportunities and special chances that our own native born kids do not receive, and then repaying that kindness with jihadism and murder. I think it makes what he did even more unacceptable and unforgivable.

 

[RevDM]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

TBH I'm all about the guillotine. It is surprisingly humane but also a spectacle for those who need that sort of thing.

 

[perfectchaos007]

God forbid if this was taking place in Saudi Arabia, where he would've been beheaded. Truly, they are the real savages. But not us. Our executions are totally humane.

It's the most humane option we have. If something more humane than lethal injection becomes available, we'll use it

 

[GloriousBagel]

God forbid if this was taking place in Saudi Arabia, where he would've been beheaded. Truly, they are the real savages. But not us. Our executions are totally humane.

Okay let's give this guy a 10 year sentence with a luxury cell because that's the way we should treat criminals that commit murders and destruction. We must be humane!

 

[MedIC86]

Yep and it seems like I need to do some research on cost of the death penalty vs life in prison.

From Amnesty:

Myth 8: Execution is cheaper than imprisonment
FACT: At least in the US, enforcing the death penalty is more expensive than imprisoning individuals for life. The judicial process is much longer and more complicated. The California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice estimated that, in California, death penalty trials cost approximately $1.1 million more than the average murder trial. The Commission estimated that the death penalty system cost California approximately $125 million more per year than the cost of permanent incarceration. This money could be diverted towards early prevention and intervention strategies, which would prevent crimes punishable by the death penalty from occurring and reduce the number of people on death row

 

[InsaneZero]

To say someone is bloodthirsty or vengeful implies a certain amount of emotion. I do not hope he is killed. If they execute him, I will not smile or cheer or pump my fist. I will genuinely think "OK, that's probably better for the world overall" and move on with my life. If he stays in prison there's a good chance he'll continue to harm the world in smaller ways as many such killers have done in the past.

I don't think anything about that rational appraisal of the situation is bloodthirsty. I just see only harm in this man being allowed to continue living.

The death penalty is a irreversible punishment handed down from an imperfect legal system. Regardless of whether or not he should be allowed to continue living, his death will serve to validate the existence and continued use of the death penalty.

The appeals process of the death penalty is a safeguard to prevent a mistake in the legal system from becoming irreversible. But that is costly and also imperfect, so in light of that the death of this one man cannot possibly outweigh the death of innocent people.

 

[Mr.Swag]

I think 60-70 years of hardcore imprisonment is worse than death.

Death, its all over. He doesn't have to wake up in the same room his whole life, he doesn't have to make others kill because he killed.

 

[ATastyMuffin]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

Honestly? Gonna use my first emotionally-charged response when I first read of this some time ago.

I thought of this dude being fully, completely bodily paralyzed, left to lie helpless in a cell forever, entirely paralyzed. Personally, that sort of punishment hinging around inability to do anything, is much worse than what physical pain can inflict. You're left with your own thoughts for decades. How can you not go insane?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Wait a second here, in what country do you think this guy would ever see the outside world again?

There's no guarantee he'd ever reach the point where he could re-enter society, the issue is that there's no attempt or thought given towards rehabilitation.

It's either jail time or death.

 

[Regurgitated]

It's the most humane option we have. If something more humane than lethal injection becomes available, we'll use it

It really isn't that humane. Sometimes the sedative doesn't take and they're still fully conscious as their body is paralyzed. They suffocate as their lungs stop working and go into cardiac arrest, all the while unable to speak or move or have anyway to show they're conscious and in horrific agony.

 

[Emerson]

The death penalty is a irreversible punishment handed down from an imperfect legal system. Regardless of whether or not he should be allowed to continue living, his death will serve to validate the existence and continued use of the death penalty.

The appeals process of the death penalty is a safeguard to prevent a mistake in the legal system from becoming irreversible. But that is costly and also imperfect, so in light of that the death of this one man cannot possibly outweigh the death of innocent people.

There is no chance this man is innocent, nor was there any chance Manson, McVeigh, bin Laden, Hussein etc. are/were innocent.

These are the cases (and only cases) I am arguing that the death penalty should be applied.

 

[NullPointer]

To those who want him executed or to rot in jail, I'm genuinly curious, are there any other things you may want inflicted upon him?

Lethal injection and then forgetting he ever existed would be fine.

 

[Sanjuro]

There's no guarantee he'd ever reach the point where he could re-enter society, the issue is that there's no attempt or thought given towards rehabilitation.

It's either jail time or death.

That's the point. There is no scenario here where he gets out in ten years and lands a job at Home Depot.