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Just Wait, Watergate didn’t become Watergate overnight, either. (NY Mag article)

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...?utm_campaign=nym&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

Really good and detailed article about how he current times are reflecting those of the Watergate era, it is a bit of a long read though.

“Let others wallow in Watergate, we are going to do our job,” said Richard Nixon with typical unearned self-righteousness in July 1973. By then, more than a year had passed since a slapstick posse of five had been caught in a bungled burglary at the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate complex. It had been nine months since Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein reported in the Washington Post that the break-in was part of a “massive campaign of political spying and sabotage” conducted by all the president’s men against most of their political opponents. Now the nation was emerging from two solid months of Senate Watergate hearings, a riveting cavalcade of White House misfits and misdeeds viewed live by 71 percent of the public.

Even so, Nixon had some reason to hope that Americans would heed his admonition to change the channel. That summer, the Times reported that both Democratic and Republican congressmen back home for recess were finding “a certain numbness” about Watergate and no “public mandate for any action as bold as impeachment.”

For all the months of sensational revelations and criminal indictments (including of his campaign manager and former attorney general, John Mitchell), a Harris poll found that only 22 percent thought Nixon should leave office. Gallup put the president’s approval rating in the upper 30s, roughly where our current president stands now — lousy, but not apocalyptic. There had yet to be an impeachment resolution filed in Congress by even Nixon’s most partisan adversaries.

He had defied his political obituaries before, staging comebacks after a slush-fund scandal nearly cost him his vice-presidential perch on the GOP ticket in 1952 and again after his 1962 defeat in the California governor’s race prompted the angry “last press conference” at which he vowed that “you won’t have Nixon to kick around anymore.” Might Tricky Dick pull off another Houdini? He was capable of it, and, as it happened, it would take another full year of bombshells and firestorms after the televised Senate hearings before a clear majority of Americans (57 percent) finally told pollsters they wanted the president to go home. Only then did he oblige them, in August 1974.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I bring this up every single time someone complains about "nothing happening."
 
Patience is not our strong suit, especially when you look at the damage this entire administration is attempting to do to society as a whole.
 

Oni Jazar

Member
The real question is this, would Nixon have been impeached by congress if Fox News / Facebook was around then?

Our current media consumption is horribly broken. Half the country thinks that mainstream media is untrustworthy. Forbes put out an article weeks back that Trump Jr is taking money away from his cancer charity to increase the wealth of the Trump business --- and people dismiss it as fake, main stream media slander.

Social media insulates our world from anything that we find distasteful or unpleasant. We are forming our own realities of the world with no open mind to the facts.

I really don't see a way out honestly :/
 

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
The real question is this, would Nixon have been impeached by congress if Fox News / Facebook was around then?

Our current media consumption is horribly broken. Half the country thinks that mainstream media is untrustworthy. Forbes put out an article weeks back that Trump Jr is taking money away from his cancer charity to increase the wealth of the Trump business --- and people dismiss it as fake, main stream media slander.

Social media insulates our world from anything that we find distasteful or unpleasant. We are forming our own realities of the world with no open mind to the facts.

I really don't see a way out honestly :/

This is actually addressed in the article.
 
Thanks OP, will read this later tonight.

Quick question though, was Nixon Watergate's only casualty? I want every single politician who had knowledge of Trump's shenanigans to lose their jobs. Bring down the sky.
 

flkraven

Member
It's going a lot faster than Watergate, though people today seem to expect instant results and get defeatist and cynical when they don't get them.

C_eFj31VoAABeJ-.jpg
 

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
Thanks OP, will read this later tonight.

Quick question though, was Nixon Watergate's only casualty? I want every single politician who had knowledge of Trump's shenanigans to lose their jobs. Bring down the sky.

Many people were indited and went to jail.
 
Can't believe I'm seeing the next Watergate happening before my own eyes. 2016 and 2017 have been pretty insane for US history.
 
Patience is needed, but people also look at the difference between the 93rd Congress and the 115th.


56-43-1
241-192

vs

46-52-2
194-241

We really do need a strong showing in 2018 to impact things, short of video showing Trump pissing on 2A.
 

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
Patience is needed, but people also look at the difference between the 93rd Congress and the 115th.


56-43-1
241-192

vs

46-52-2
194-241

We really do need a strong showing in 2018 to impact things, short of video showing Trump pissing on 2A.

Another thing that is addressed in the article is how much more fluid the political situation was in 1972 and how that affected things.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I think too many people are waiting for some E3-style bombshell that's going to get congress to pivot faster than Microsoft pivoted on the XB1 DRM shit. The Trump shit is definitely going at a faster pace than Watergate, but it's still going to take time
 

Oni Jazar

Member
This is actually addressed in the article.

I just think it's not near the power & influence that exists today. I hope that Trump falls and I hope that confidence is restored with reputable news organizations. We need to restore our faith in both the free press as well as our government.
 
GOP is happy to play the extremely long con (they are all dinosaurs to begin with) but the Left is ungodly impatient and can't stop writing "Does protest work?" thinkpieces after two weeks
 

KingK

Member
Honestly, the "but Watergate!" excuse is kind of a bullshit response to people who legitimately have reason to believe nothing will happen to Trump.

The situations are not comparable for a few key reasons. First and foremost being the democratic party controlled congress back then. Having a republican majority (particularly this Republican majority), which will more than likely hold through the midterms, already makes things drastically different. Add Fox News and other propaganda outlets that didn't exist back then, the much more severe polarization of today, and other examples like Iran-Contra where they just got a fall guy to take all the blame.

It just gets really annoying having people shout "Watergate didn't happen in a day!" to imply it's only a matter of time until Trump is impeached, and shut down any more pessimistic (I would argue realistic) predictions of what may or may not happen. If your argument relies on the modern republican party to do the right thing in the end, then I'd say you have a pretty stupid/naive argument given the last few decades of evidence.
 

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
Honestly, the "but Watergate!" excuse is kind of a bullshit response to people who legitimately have reason to believe nothing will happen to Trump.

The situations are not comparable for a few key reasons. First and foremost being the democratic party controlled congress back then. Having a republican majority (particularly this Republican majority), which will more than likely hold through the midterms, already makes things drastically different. Add Fox News and other propaganda outlets that didn't exist back then, the much more severe polarization of today, and other examples like Iran-Contra where they just got a fall guy to take all the blame.

It just gets really annoying having people shout "Watergate didn't happen in a day!" to imply it's only a matter of time until Trump is impeached, and shut down any more pessimistic (I would argue realistic) predictions of what may or may not happen. If your argument relies on the modern republican party to do the right thing in the end, them I'd say you have a pretty stupid/naive argument given the last few decades of evidence.

You might be surprised at how much of it is rhyming right now.

In the end, none of this was to any avail. For all the cover-ups, the efforts to stifle the press, and the stoking of his pugilistic base, Nixon failed to save himself. That his demise was not primarily a consequence of the Democrats’ control of Congress is due to the fact that some of his most reliable and powerful allies in both chambers were Democrats. Even as Nixon’s race-baiting “southern strategy” was hastening the realignment of the GOP as a new home for conservative southern Democrats (like the Dixiecrat Strom Thurmond, who had defected to the Republicans in 1964), most in Congress had yet to transition, as typified by the segregationist Mississippi senators James Eastland and John Stennis, both Democrats and firm Nixon supporters. Even Sam Ervin, the North Carolina Democrat who presided over the 1973 Watergate hearings, was a segregationist and Vietnam War hawk who, as the historian Rick Perlstein has pointed out, was “one of the most loyal votes for Nixon in the Senate” and had initially declared that it was “simply inconceivable that Nixon might have been involved” in the White House horrors.

A related misperception that some present-day liberals tend to retrofit to 1973 has it that the Washington Republican leadership of that time included ballsy, principled moderates who would speak truth to their gangster president as the pathetic Trump lackeys Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan will not. If only. A few Republican senators did ask tough questions during the Watergate hearings — Howard Baker and Lowell Weicker, famously — but it took even them a year after the Watergate break-in to find their voices, and they were not in the leadership. Then, as now, so-called Establishment Republicans were more likely to gripe about Nixon in private or in not-for-attribution conversations with reporters. In public, they usually cowered, sparing the president their harshest criticism and cordoning him off from impeachable offenses out of fear of him and his base. The Republican minority leader in the House, the Arizona congressman John Rhodes, found his mail running three to one against Nixon until he talked about a possible presidential resignation; then the count flipped to eight to one in Nixon’s favor.
One Watergate lesson Trump failed to heed: Don’t antagonize the FBI.

It was not until three months before Nixon did quit that a trio of Republican senators — all up for election that fall — called for him either to resign or step aside temporarily under the 25th Amendment. More typical were towers of Jell-O like the secretary of the Interior, Rogers Morton, a former Maryland congressman and chairman of the Republican National Committee. In that same month, May 1974, he told the Times he was having “a very difficult time in living with” what he called “a breakdown in our ethics of government” — only to pop up in the Post 24 hours later saying that he was “not going to jump off the ship until there’s evidence that the ship is sinking.” (And he still held on tight, surviving in the Cabinet after Gerald Ford assumed the presidency.)

Nor did Nixon’s base ever desert him. At the nadir of Watergate, Nixon’s approval rating fell to 27 percent; by the time he resigned, that number had dropped to 24 percent. In other words, at least a quarter of the American populace had no problem telling pollsters that they were still behind a president who had lied repeatedly and engaged in unambiguously criminal conspiracies. They still saw Nixon as “one of us,” as he billed himself on posters in his first House run in 1946, and as a fighter who took on “them” — essentially the same elites that Trump inveighs against today.

Trump’s base is roughly the same size as Nixon’s then, or only a shade less. At FiveThirtyEight, Nate Silver quantifies that base as voters who “strongly approve” of Trump, a figure that peaked at 30 after the Inaugural and had dropped to 21 to 22 percent by late May. They will no more abandon Trump than their parents and grandparents did Nixon. If anything, Trump’s ascent has once more confirmed that this constituency is a permanent factor in the American political equation. Should Trump follow Nixon into ignominy, that base may in time rally around a more cunning and durable Trump — a new Nixon, if you will. He will be far scarier than an understudy like Pence, who is unlikely to survive his association with a tainted president any longer than Ford did (if even that long). Future Democrats may be just as ineffectual at stopping the next right-wing populist before he (or she) lands in the White House, but that’s a depression for another day.
 
Honestly, the "but Watergate!" excuse is kind of a bullshit response to people who legitimately have reason to believe nothing will happen to Trump.

The situations are not comparable for a few key reasons. First and foremost being the democratic party controlled congress back then. Having a republican majority (particularly this Republican majority), which will more than likely hold through the midterms, already makes things drastically different. Add Fox News and other propaganda outlets that didn't exist back then, the much more severe polarization of today, and other examples like Iran-Contra where they just got a fall guy to take all the blame.

It just gets really annoying having people shout "Watergate didn't happen in a day!" to imply it's only a matter of time until Trump is impeached, and shut down any more pessimistic (I would argue realistic) predictions of what may or may not happen. If your argument relies on the modern republican party to do the right thing in the end, then I'd say you have a pretty stupid/naive argument given the last few decades of evidence.

Electoral historical precedence is a pretty strong current to swim against. The GOP will likely lose seats in 2018. It's just a matter of how much. After all, one of the big reason Trump was able to squeak out a victory is because of historical precedence: a party that holds the presidency for at least two terms going into the election will like lose the presidency on election day.

When the GOP loses, there will be some changes. If they lose the House? Then all bets are off. How do you lose House seats? By having an unpopular president which Trump doesn't seem to have any trouble being. All these media articles and revelations aren't gonna matter much now, but the sum of it all does weigh on voter's mind eventually. Again,historical precedence in our elections has shown this. Not even Trump can overcome that.
 

KingK

Member
You might be surprised at how much of it is rhyming right now.
I just finished the article and it does nothing to allay my concerns.

It doesn't really address the polarization problem. It compares the size of Nixon and Trump's hardcore bases, but that's about it. It doesn't address the difference in soft support and the effect of polarization there. Back in 74, republican voters who disapprove of Nixon may vote Democrat. The number of people willing to switch parties today, even if they disapprove, is miniscule. Essentially, Trump may lose support among republican voters in opinion polls, but at the end of the day 97% will still vote for him and the party over any Democrat. Politics are much less fluid, both due to propaganda inspired polarization and years of gerrymandering/choosing your own constituents. Congressmen know this and it fundamentally changes the calculus of whether Trump's allies will turn on him. They'd rather deal with unenthusiastic R voters who are tired of Trump but will come home in the end, as opposed to an open primary revolt of his rabid followers who make up most of their base. It's a lose-lose situation, but I think they'll make the conclusion (And be correct), that they lose even worse if they turn on Trump.

On top of that, the article even implies that Nixon may have survived if not for the tapes leading to enough defections. I don't even think an audio tape would be enough today, but I very much doubt there's any evidence as tangible or explosive as that here anyway. We're going to end up with a shit ton of circumstantial evidence and possibly some solid paper trails. Even with audio/video of Trump pledging fealty to Putin before sucking his dick, I doubt that anything can get 67 votes for indictment in the Senate today, and the article really didn't change my mind.
 

Catdaddy

Member
I think when he can find an out (or something to blame) that will allow him to save face, he’ll resign. Being POTUS is a fulltime job whether he likes it or not and I don’t think he wanted the job to begin with, he didn’t have the guts(ego) to drop out.
 
The rumor mill in crazy town is going full tilt today. I *almost* *sorta* wish there were a rumor mill thread, but I know that's not a good idea.
 
I'm sensing that keeping Trump in office at least though the 2018 election season, would do more to help Dems/Libs than removing him asap.

As long as he's there, his opponents have a clear-cut target.

But if you remove Trump from the equation too early, you give time to the Republicans to regroup and potentially refill the vacuum.

They saw how Trump won. They'll put together their notes and bring forth loud, brash, conservative candidates that the grassrooters like, minus any association to Russia or business conflicts, and probably take over right where Trump left off, so far as the anti-Liberal agenda goes.

And if you get Republicans in there that aren't as poorly spoken and are more articulate, you can push the same divisive shit Trump is pushing, without the overt insanity or inane 3AM Twitter bullshit. It's a lot harder to fight a sane person than an insane person, even if they have the same exact agenda.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Yes, its a slow trickle. I get that. But there are two important things that wont change.

1. Democrats aren't taking back the senate any time soon.

2. Republicans won't impeach him, no matter what comes of the investigation.

Anyone who thinks he will be impeached is delusional. It's not the 70's anymore.
 

Steel

Banned
I'm sensing that keeping Trump in office at least though the 2018 election season, would do more to help Dems/Libs than removing him asap.

As long as he's there, his opponents have a clear-cut target.

But if you remove Trump from the equation too early, you give time to the Republicans to regroup and potentially refill the vacuum.

On the other hand, if Republicans are responsible for impeaching Donald, his bloodthirsty base would probably hate them forever.

That being said, I don't expect everything to be known before 2018.
 
Nixon didn't have a GOP congress and the State run Fox News backing his ass like they do with Trump.

Really, can't thank protest voters enough to not even give a shit about voting in checks and balances to Trump. All the same right fellas?
 

Dynomutt

Member
I always imagine what Watergate or any of the scandals of the past would be like with cell phones cams and social media.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
Yes, its a slow trickle. I get that. But there are two important th8ngs that wont change.

1. Democrats aren't taking back the senate any time soon.

2. Republicans won't impeach him, no matter what comes of the investigation.

Anyone who thinks he will be impeached is delusional. It's not the 70's anymore.

If Dems take back the House in 2018 they can Impeach him. That alone will really diminish his influence and might start a conversation that motivates the Senate to vote to remove.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Yes, its a slow trickle. I get that. But there are two important th8ngs that wont change.

1. Democrats aren't taking back the senate any time soon.

2. Republicans won't impeach him, no matter what comes of the investigation.

Anyone who thinks he will be impeached is delusional. It's not the 70's anymore.

I still maintain that the GOP is going to turn on Trump the moment they really start feeling the 2018 heat. I mean, we almost saw Georgia flip blue for the first time in almost 3 decades.
 
The crimes are worse than Watergate and the investigations and revelations are hitting far hotter and faster than Watergate .

The problem is the right wing noise machine making excuses, saying it doesn't matter, and how that audience will only ever except news when it comes from those sources, since every other source possible is part of the conspiracy.

If this was the state of the world when Nixon was president we would only know Watergate as some petty bullshit that his rivals tried unsuccessfully to pin on him.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I still maintain that the GOP is going to turn on Trump the moment they really start feeling the 2018 heat. I mean, we almost saw Georgia flip blue for the first time in almost 3 decades.

People have been saying the GOP will turn on Trump for how long now?

There are only 5 senators saying no to his piece of shit health care plan, and most of those are the hardcore guys who think it isn't harsh enough.

Republicans aren't turning on him.
 

Sephzilla

Member
People have been saying the GOP will turn on Trump for how long now?

There are only 5 senators saying no to his piece of shit health care plan, and most of those are the hardcore guys who think it isn't harsh enough.

Republicans aren't turning on him.

One (or two?) of them are republicans up for re-election
 
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