Oh man, if my mom or dad aired all of this out in public when I was that age I'd be unendingly furious and upset. Especially if it was like this, where it seems there's little motivation behind it other than "I want to ruin my ex's reputation."
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kai Cole, Joss Whedon's Ex-Wife, calls him out as a 'Hypocrite Preaching Feminism'
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
Oh man, if my mom or dad aired all of this out in public when I was that age I'd be unendingly furious and upset. Especially if it was like this, where it seems there's little motivation behind it other than "I want to ruin my ex's reputation."
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
No but it's disappointing to know he's just another dude on the long list of dudes in Hollywood being creeps.
Whompa02
Member
Same.
Also, I really never got the praise people gave him.
If you cheat on your wife, I'm not exactly sure how much credit you'd get for calling yourself someone who respects women.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Having an affair doesnt make you a creep.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It's sounding a lot more than just an affair. Whedon's image has already been through the ringer for years anyway. This is just another baggage he has to own up to.
Whompa02
Member
Feel free to explain to the audience what does make you a creep. I'm genuinely curious now.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
If a woman cheats on her husband Im not going to automatically assume she has no respect for men.
Being creepy? Being desired by women and having sex with them is the opposite of creepy. Stalking and harassing women is creepy. Consensual sex is not.
reptilescorpio
Member
My thoughts exactly. Not a fan of Whedon but seems like an odd take.
Whompa02
Member
But that's disrespectful to men to betray their trust by cheating on them. Right?
Do you understand the basic rules of having a wife?
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Disrespectful to a man. Not all men.
Whompa02
Member
At least two men. Because you're also untrustworthy to the man you're cheating with as well as the original man. Also any subsequent men you decide to continue being untrustworthy with. Your logic is peculiar to say the least.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Im sure anyone having sex with a married woman knows shes married.
Its a logical statement. You can broadly respect men while cheating on your husband. Being a feminist doesnt mean you cant do anything that upsets a single woman ever.
Snarky(HEART)
Banned
The instinct to defend a possible serial cheater's feminist cred is a funny thing.
Whompa02
Member
First of all, that's not true. Not all women know they're being used as a pocket girlfriend. At all.
Secondly: I just pointed out how it's illogical to be untrustworthy and cheat on one woman, with another woman, and still claim that you have any respect for women. These are objects of obsession to him. You don't get it.
For real. I'm actually pretty dumbfounded. if her testimony is true then it's pretty obvious that he's not.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I'm grateful that my parents refused to talk shit about each other at all after they divorced.
My dad was not an especially high-profile member of the community, but he wasn't a nobody either. His divorce from my mom got exceeding nasty. Every day during my parents' divorce I'd wake up worried that I'd see some newspaper story about some awful thing one of them might have been involved in.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Merriweather
Member
Age of Utron is on TBS right now and during the final act they spend a significant amount of time on a random woman in a sundress trying to escape. I always thought that maybe she was one of Joss' special girls. After reading the story about his ex-wife I'm sure she has to be.
googleplex
Member
No one in these thread is defending Joss Whedon. But people are deputing the ideal the marital infidelity is = anti-feminist.
Mostly because Feminism has fuck all to do with it.
Inara? It's debatable if you count her as "not being punished" when Mal talks down on her profession (and her, by extension), but I think if people are drastically going to revise their opinions on his shows and characters because of this, then it's getting a little out of hand. In terms of Mal and Inara's relationship, and his character, I wouldn't class her as being punished. Like, it's a moral conflict between them, and I don't think he perceives it as needlessly punishes her.
(Edit: for clarity in Firefly, I would count Inara, Kayleigh and Zoe as three sexually active female characters who aren't punished for having sex.)
Also, books, movies and TV have been punishing characters for having sex for forever. Every horror film ever, most '50s B-Movies, and Dracula. I think it's important to draw a distinction between voyeuristic and pointless, and not, but if we're doing that then Joss's shows shouldn't be singled out. Like, the rape-scene in the first episode of The Americans should get called out before the Spike/Buffy bathroom scene.
I hate the idea that she should have stayed silent, for the sake of the children . It feels manipulative. Whedon could have avoided cheating and giving their mother PTSD, for the sake of the children, but that's not being mentioned. Also, Whedon is the one opting to live a public lifestyle and if he, as she says, was referencing their marriage publicly, to further his feminist persona, then its more than fair for her to publicly comment and he's to blame for any pain this causes to his children.
At some point, she has to teach her children to stand up for themselves.
At some point, she has to teach her children to stand up for themselves.
Inara, Kaylee, Zoey.
Hellwarden
Member
Cheating on someone doesn't necessarily make Joss a fraud when it comes to feminism.
It is generally a huge dickbag thing to do.
It is generally a huge dickbag thing to do.
Sexually active women of Firefly: Inara, Zoe, Kaylee, Safron.
It could be any of those 4. I don't think any of them are "punished" for having sex, though Inara certainly takes a bit of flak for being a sex worker. It's largely implied that Companions enjoy an elevated position in society, and that Mal is just a prude for looking down on her for it.
Yeah, I'm not sure how people can say this doesn't reflect poorly on his 'feminist' views.
JigglesBunny
Banned
Whedon has always had a bit of a reputation in the industry that would align with this blog, yeah. In recent years, that reputation has spilled out into the public eye and this seems like it'll be the last few drops.
It's a shame too - always was a fan of his early work and the first Avengers. I remember the first time I had heard some questionable things about him, I was pretty surprised. The guy plays his character well.
It's a shame too - always was a fan of his early work and the first Avengers. I remember the first time I had heard some questionable things about him, I was pretty surprised. The guy plays his character well.
I forgot about Safron...
And I think it's actually explicitly stated by Mal(?) that one of the reasons for Inara being on-ship is that Companions can help get the ship onto more planets, which pretty heavily implies the universe counts them as being Upper Class. Inara is also one of the few characters to "escape the series" unhurt (physically and emotionally), even by the time Serenity's credits roll.
I'm not saying she should have stayed silent.
But whatever "lesson" she might hope to teach here is going to be drowned out by the kids' sense of pain, anguish and humiliation. Since this testimony appears to be largely vindictive, it's entirely possible that you're teaching the wrong lesson. Teenagers are largely self-centered, so their takeaway from a situation like this is likely to be "Mom ruined my life just so she could hurt Dad."
Airola
Member
It sounds as if he was that type of feminist who really really loves women and can't help it but fall in front of their greatness. And because he really really loves and respects women he should be allowed to fall once. At least. Maybe twice. Maybe three times. Maybe more. But he still really really loves women and the women know he loves them too because he's so respectful before and after they have sex. Women are so empowered when they can freely express them sexually and he's very glad to help them with that.
That type of feminist can and probably is legit willing to help women all around the world and probably really helps them too but it doesn't mean he isn't using his feminism also to his advantage.
That type of feminist can and probably is legit willing to help women all around the world and probably really helps them too but it doesn't mean he isn't using his feminism also to his advantage.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
Hmmm, this is interesting. I had no idea he had a reputation.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Firefly has some major examples of Nice Guy Sexism:
1) War Stories basically was one giant set-up to the punchline of Mal pretending to sexually harass Zoey.
2) Mal's entire speech to Saffron the first time she enters the ship is textbook fedora. "M'lady, you fear not, for I am a real man". The first time I heard it, I needed to rewind just to make sure it was real.
3) Saffron's mark referring to her as being "too good for him" and that is why he knew she was a thief.
Let's not even get into Dollhouse: Nice Guy The Series.
I haye how people on haf do this. Becayse he cheated and the definition of feminism are 2 different aspects being discussed. Lumping them together and claiming people are defending his cheating is manipulative.
I am not particularly a fan of his but I do think it's a kind of interesting situation.
So this guy is a faux feminist or whatever, but is publicly espousing feminist ideals and making feminist media. People are saying this a huge "nice guy" act to get women... but someone in his position doesn't even need to pretend to be a nice guy to have women throw themselves at him.
it's a shitty thing to cheat on your wife but IDK if that erases all of your other actions.
So this guy is a faux feminist or whatever, but is publicly espousing feminist ideals and making feminist media. People are saying this a huge "nice guy" act to get women... but someone in his position doesn't even need to pretend to be a nice guy to have women throw themselves at him.
it's a shitty thing to cheat on your wife but IDK if that erases all of your other actions.
Any pain and humiliation they feel, because of their father's actions , is the fault of their father, especially if (as she says) she's responding to his continued use of their marriage as a shield. It's weird to point the blame at her, when he's the one who destroyed the family. She's just talking about how he destroyed the family.
Lord Fagan
Junior Member
Very complex situation. Personal information being aired out in public in the name of ideals is kind of hard to swallow.
I'm glad she's back on track with her career goals and having some breakthroughs in therapy(least it very much sounds like that's what's happening), but I just don't see how yelling this so loudly and with seemingly little regard for the unintended consequences is the best road to go down.
I could be totally wrong. She's describing a terribly brutal betrayal with some very arrogant hypocrisy on his part. Stuff like this is better tackled behind closed doors if only to err on the side of caution.
I'm glad she's back on track with her career goals and having some breakthroughs in therapy(least it very much sounds like that's what's happening), but I just don't see how yelling this so loudly and with seemingly little regard for the unintended consequences is the best road to go down.
I could be totally wrong. She's describing a terribly brutal betrayal with some very arrogant hypocrisy on his part. Stuff like this is better tackled behind closed doors if only to err on the side of caution.
plagiarize
Banned
While Joss was ahead of the curve in the Buffy days as far as female representation in genre TV, he's long been left behind.
I'm glad he did his bit, but I am not surprised by these stories.
I'm glad he did his bit, but I am not surprised by these stories.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
It's a morality issue, not a gender rights issue. If he was gay he wouldn't be a misandrist if he cheated on his husband. It wouldn't be a men's rights issue. If anything, it's disrespectful to the institution of marriage.
People in general react really poorly when family business gets aired in an incredibly public way like this. For many people that's almost a greater taboo than the infidelity.
I don't think an adolescent is going to read it like "Oh it's Dad's fault that now everyone knows our private business". She's been silent on this matter for many years at this point, so a teenager is more than likely going to have an opinion more along the lines of "Why did she have to speak out NOW?"
Beerman462
Member
Wait, why is his Ex wife's word being taken as gospel?
shawnbuddy
Member
As a Buffy fan you could always tell there were tensions and dark dealings behind the scenes of our fun, positive show. I've been prepared for the secrets and tell-all books since it ended, and I guess that's staring now. I don't know if cheating makes Joss a bad feminist. But I do know it doesn't negate the feminist message of the work or make it wrong.
brochiller
Member
Just because he had an affair doesn't mean he no longer stands for female equality in the workplace.
Oh, to be sure, it's not a great written work. I think a lot of the love it gets is due to it being an ensemble drama with some fantastic character interaction, which is down to the actors, and some decent world-building. But it at least isn't fodder for the whole concept of "Whedon tortures all his female characters", which I think is an over-extended theory anyways, given that Buffy is High School, and is torture for everyone (physically and emotionally).
Dollhouse grosses me out... The second season was better, and the concept is interesting, but was just not something that was handled very well. I think a Dollhouse commisioned by HBO which tackled head-on the "but can't dolls just be used for sex?" lurking in the back of everyone's mind might work. Westworld but urban and near-future mind-imprinting.