It's always going to be conjecture, but given how they treated Charisma in S4 there's a pattern of shiftiness there. Course, Fury openly criticised Lost after he left so he's not the sort to stay quiet about shitty behind the scenes stuff...
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Kai Cole, Joss Whedon's Ex-Wife, calls him out as a 'Hypocrite Preaching Feminism'
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
It's always going to be conjecture, but given how they treated Charisma in S4 there's a pattern of shiftiness there. Course, Fury openly criticised Lost after he left so he's not the sort to stay quiet about shitty behind the scenes stuff...
I asked if you had a source for Charisma saying she was lied to about the script. Do you?
Earthpainting
Member
It can be tricky to determine whether or not infidelity is a feminist issue or not. There's certainly something to discuss on whether someone can consent if their partner is changing their rules of engagement behind their backs, and if someone's body autonomy is jeopardised by the increased STI risk of their partner.
Regardless of that, it's always been pretty easy to give Whedon the side-eye. Almost his entire body of work hinges on using tropes and winking at them. The acknowledgement is cute and cathartic for a little while, but at of the day he's still continuing those very patterns. It becomes tiresome after a while. At least he was a public voice for feminism in the industry, so whether he is a hypocritical Milkshake Duck or not, I'm not going to erase his contributions on that front.
Regardless of that, it's always been pretty easy to give Whedon the side-eye. Almost his entire body of work hinges on using tropes and winking at them. The acknowledgement is cute and cathartic for a little while, but at of the day he's still continuing those very patterns. It becomes tiresome after a while. At least he was a public voice for feminism in the industry, so whether he is a hypocritical Milkshake Duck or not, I'm not going to erase his contributions on that front.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Let's not play the semantics game over a guy accused of being a serial cheater, please.
Ftfy
While I would neither care nor be surprised if this is validated or corroborated - at this time there is precisely one claimant. And an emotionally invested one who states she's suffering from PTSD.
I'm not stabbing for Whedon. I've never even seen Buffy.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
The reputation she's seeking to 'ruin' here is the one where he gets kudos for supposedly respecting women when he spent their entire marriage disrespecting her and also using it to further his professional career. That seems pretty fucking on point as a justified motivation and not just some kind of bitter lashing out. As for the airing out thing, had my dad had any kind of reputation when my parents split, my kid self would have cheered her on for bringing to light his shitty serial cheating ways. Why should she have to stay quiet when she was the one wronged? Cole putting this out in the open also gives fair warning to other starstruck women who might have been buying into his 'brand'. Good job, I say.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's a lot of hair splitting over whether or not Whedon is a hypocrite.
This. He's an asshole for cheating, but it doesn't mean he isn't a feminist.
#1 defender
Member
I wouldn't take that too literally. Iirc, he mentioned that in an interview himself, noone else corroborated that, right? From listening to a good number of his audio commentaries and interviews over the years i've gotten the sense that he's very sarcastic and self deprecating and often uses hyperbole when describing himself in an unfavorable manner. I.e., he might have gotten emotional over something in a public setting, but the shirtless part is likely an embellishment. It's just that this tone of his doesn't come across well in print and arguably even in person to people unfamiliar with him, which is why they might be inclined to take everything he says at face value.
With that said, finding out about this whole ordeal is disappointing.
Glass Rebel
Member
This bears repeating. People are intentionally glossing over the circumstances of the cheating.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Fucks sake, Whedon, you were not supposed to be this guy.
ChubbyHuggs
Member
Add to the fact that he had power over any actress on his show, he used his show and "feminist" label to have these affairs. Seems pretty shitty. Good on her for calling him out.
Sickboy007
Member
All of your faves have cheated on someone, get over it.
And bad on her if it's not true.
not psycho
Member
True. Kind of a knee jerk reaction in defense of his shows, which I do think have good feminist elements.
With few exceptions, I don't consider Joss Whedon's sex life to be my business, but I do consider his shows to be my business, so that's where my mind went. Much as I'd like to separate the art and the artist, if Whedon did something that severely contradicted the feminist elements of his work, it would be hard. But I don't think this is very relevant to that, not that people were claiming it did.
But yeah, if he was pretending to righteousness, including by the use of the "feminist" label, yet doing this, then it would qualify as hypocritical even if he never suggested that fidelity goes along with feminism.
What does that have to do with anything?
Do you think it is always a good idea to call out cheaters publically? I'm not so sure.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
This is such a shitty worldview and generalization.
Warm Machine
Member
It is mostly true though. Go to IMDb and check spouse for almost any star or director you like. Sports is just as bad.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
When they trade on the idea that they represent something more supportive/respectful of women and use it to their advantage for work/to attract women and fans, I think it's very fair game. She's only accusing him of behavior that's hypocritical to what he projects and has happily benefited from for years. This is obviously a more public airing than most because of his position/'brand', but is there some circumstance where you think the one being cheated shouldn't be able to speak out about how they were wronged?
No I agree, I'm just thinking about how Gamergate got started. I remember a lot of people saying he should never have gone public with private relationship stuff. Obviously everything went to shit after that.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Even putting aside the possibility of Whedon allegedly using his feminist credentials as a pretense for infidelity, the mere act of infidelity coming from a man in such a position of power highlights his privilege as a male in this society, and undermines the message. i.e. it reinforces the story we see time and time again of powerful men sleeping with their female subordinates.
For example:
https://www.thenation.com/article/lewinsky-double-standard/
exmachina64
Banned
That's not what this is about.
waveuponwave
Member
Everyone should be able to speak out, but I don't think the situation is always clear cut
E.g. with the genders reversed it becomes a completely different situation, as women have to face tons of abuse online as it is, and accusations of cheating against men and women are treated completely differently. Boys gonna be boys vs incoming MRA shitstorms
'She cheated on me and because of that she's a hypocrite and needs to be exposed' was the whole argument of that angry ex-boyfriend's blogpost that sparked Gamergate and we know where that ended
That's why I would say keeping private relationships separate from a person' work is important. Unless actuals abuse happens of course
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Yeah, it's definitely not handled the same when the genders are reversed as wave (below) pointed out. Even when women do vindictively go after their male partners for cheating, has there been a similar case/level of shit as the Gamergate one? Don't really know how it would be rectified other than overhauling the social imbalance that we have now, which while maybe improving slowly, seems untenable some days. :/
I hear ya. I was mulling over the same thing. I don't think everyone keeping mum, especially because it does so often seem to intersect with work for people, is the solution, but damned if I know how to balance that out. The backlash against women (especially using the GG example) seems exponentially worse than what guys get, but trying to keep things private also seems like it would benefit guys in this sit far more than help women.
Inferno313
Banned
Um... You can't eat fish and call yourself vegetarian.
Audioboxer
Member
An apparently loud and vocal male feminist ends up succumbing to their own puritanical preaching. Who would have thought? Better hand in the feminist membership card! Or is it a reality people can end up being hypocrites while still delivering a good message? Joss, you're still a dick for serial cheating, it really does fuck people up as it's one of the rawest forms of breaking confidence, honesty, respect and moral decency. It's probably happened to half of this board, and while some do shrug it off and move on quickly others can end up devastated and take years to recover. As always cheating or adultery can often be the height of a relationship breakdown where both parties are contributing to friction, but what's in-between your legs and the decisions you make with that are on you alone. Grievances and baggage in a relationship should be tackled head on, and if you don't want to be with someone do the decent thing and break up properly before running off to bed others.
However, it's always eyes rolling into the back of your head worthy witnessing hundreds if not thousands of people relish in digging into other peoples imperfect private lives and acting like moral crusaders with their fingertips because any hypocrisy in their own lives might be protected behind the curtains. Just remember when you're going apeshit at someone for wrongdoing if you yourself have ever made any mistakes in your own life or failed to walk the walk from you talking the talk (preaching standards you fail at from time to time). Statistically, there will be many in here, let alone across the internet, who go on social media or forums and shout about standards and right/wrong, whilst either having made mistakes in their own lives in the past or maybe even ongoing in the present. Nothing wrong with being an imperfect person stating good standards for all, but just remember your own failings before you go too ham on the judge, jury and executioner moral crusader angle.
Considering there hasn't been any accusations of abuse, preying, nonconsent or anything like that this appears like your average run of the mill private-life baggage people should really be sorting out and trying to get help for/moving on from without airing it all for eyes across the world. Yeah yeah, he's a celeb and a public figure so that is somehow supposed to give everyone 100% transparency into his life, but, often I don't buy that and really just chalk things up to people have private lives and make mistakes within them, the end. It's on them to sort things out, learn and move on.
However, it's always eyes rolling into the back of your head worthy witnessing hundreds if not thousands of people relish in digging into other peoples imperfect private lives and acting like moral crusaders with their fingertips because any hypocrisy in their own lives might be protected behind the curtains. Just remember when you're going apeshit at someone for wrongdoing if you yourself have ever made any mistakes in your own life or failed to walk the walk from you talking the talk (preaching standards you fail at from time to time). Statistically, there will be many in here, let alone across the internet, who go on social media or forums and shout about standards and right/wrong, whilst either having made mistakes in their own lives in the past or maybe even ongoing in the present. Nothing wrong with being an imperfect person stating good standards for all, but just remember your own failings before you go too ham on the judge, jury and executioner moral crusader angle.
Considering there hasn't been any accusations of abuse, preying, nonconsent or anything like that this appears like your average run of the mill private-life baggage people should really be sorting out and trying to get help for/moving on from without airing it all for eyes across the world. Yeah yeah, he's a celeb and a public figure so that is somehow supposed to give everyone 100% transparency into his life, but, often I don't buy that and really just chalk things up to people have private lives and make mistakes within them, the end. It's on them to sort things out, learn and move on.
This.
Relationships are complex especially ones involving many years of marriage and kids.
The simple fact of the matter is we'll never know exactly what went down between them.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Yeah, you kind of can. Pescetarian. I know one, actually... She's a lovely lady.
No, you can't. You're proving it in your post, where we use a different name for people who eat fish but not other meat, because the word is not "vegetarian".
Well, actually...
Also, note my italics for "kind of".
Late edit: I'm not trying to be a dick, so by way of (slight) explanation, I'll say that the lady I know is very insistent that it's (a form of) vegetarianism. *shrugs*
Yeah, if this amounts to him being outed as a serial cheater, I really don't care. I feel bad for his wife but it's as you say - failing to live up to standards does not mean you shouldn't be a proponent of them, or that they are discredited.
I also don't think infidelity is necessarily a feminist issue. Everyone in the world is capable of cheating, and many do.
At the same time, I've never liked Joss Whedon and I always found his 'feminism' to be superficial and trite, so I'm not even disappointed.
AuthenticM
Member
This does waaay more to destroy Whedon's feminist cred than his cheating on his wife.
Holy shit. What a fucking asshole.
I've taken a day to process my feelings on this. If the allegations are true, then I am truly disappointed in Joss Whedon. I've followed all his works for years and bought into his support of feminism and equality, so it's a shame if his personal behavior didn't live up to the beliefs that he extolled.
I feel like a member of the X-Men who finds out that their virtuous leader, Professor Charles Xavier, did something so heinous that was contrary to their mission statement, that they couldn't allow him back into the team he founded. The only way to move on is to live for the mission.
I feel like a member of the X-Men who finds out that their virtuous leader, Professor Charles Xavier, did something so heinous that was contrary to their mission statement, that they couldn't allow him back into the team he founded. The only way to move on is to live for the mission.
MisterR
Member
Yep, slinging mud about personal relationships without regard to how this will effect your kids seems kind of shitty. Being an asshole in a personal relationship regarding cheating, doesn't really seem to apply to how much a feminist you are.
I mean, if the dude was serial cheating for 15 years with different partners, most of whom worked as an employee or were fans, and caused this much trauma to his wife, I don't know how this doesn't undermine his nature towards women.
She has essentially had to sit back whilst he's been put on a pedestal whilst she's known his real nature, I'd be livid personally.
The amount of downplaying of infidelity here is eye opening also. Mistakes can be made, but this is a clear pattern of behaviour. You don't have to be perfect and no-one is, but he's obviously a piece of work in this regard.
She has essentially had to sit back whilst he's been put on a pedestal whilst she's known his real nature, I'd be livid personally.
The amount of downplaying of infidelity here is eye opening also. Mistakes can be made, but this is a clear pattern of behaviour. You don't have to be perfect and no-one is, but he's obviously a piece of work in this regard.
Whompa02
Member
Not true? Wtf?
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Surely this doesn't surprise people?
Seriously folks, just accept that the vast majority of men in Hollywood with even a remote amount of fame are having affairs.
Seriously folks, just accept that the vast majority of men in Hollywood with even a remote amount of fame are having affairs.
Accept? It's not really my business, but I don't owe any of them any respect or courtesy
But just remember kids, he's famous and it's okay he cheated.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
That has nothing to do with feminism. You can want equality from both sexes while being a cheating asshole. I'm not surprised people confuse them since it's become popular to throw 1 word lines like buzzwords that don't mean anything context wise.
I always find these statements some of the funniest when someone is about to give a certain speech. Imagine if they were just.. honest. Your husband was a cunt husband of the highest order, and you want as less women as possible to sleep around with popular movie director because of his constant cheating. You don't want to think about it and would like to hurt him since the divorce is official now. Boom. Instead of carefully worded passive aggressive jabs that formed of well deserved bitterness. She like anyone should have broken up with him after the first time he cheated though.
It's a shame things like this are publicized as much (peoples' lives in general). In regards to Hollywood, I just don't see healthy relationships and people generally treat marriages like high school relationships. Easier to understand the lifestyle and not be surprised later on from anyone in that field.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
I think I remember his ex-wife mentioning something like this a few years ago, or something. I know it was before July 2015, because I was at SDCC and Joss had a panel. I remember thinking it was weird how no one mentioned his "feminist" intent.
SliceSabre
Banned
In my mind being a feminist doesn't preclude you from being an asshole or having negative personality traits. I mean the definition of feminist doesn't also have "is also a good person and would never cheat on their spouse" in it.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
It's not great, but it's also what 90% of people do in those positions. Straight men do it, gay men do it, some women do it and more will eventually do it as more of them end up as directors and producers. Attractive, powerful people enjoy fucking other attractive people around them... but I agree that they probably shouldn't get married.
He's not using his position of power for pedophilia or to commit sexual assault, so that makes him better than a (sadly) immense number of Hollywood big wigs.
He's not using his position of power for pedophilia or to commit sexual assault, so that makes him better than a (sadly) immense number of Hollywood big wigs.
ChockaBlocka
Neo Member
This. People here were savaging (rightfully) that Polygon creep because of his abuse of power to collect nudes, but start making excuses when Joss Whedon trolls his own sets looking for easy pieces? Come on now.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
Wow, this is actually quite something.
There's a leap here which people should be careful about making.
Yes, he's been in a position of power. But there's nothing (that we know of) that says that he used that power to troll for women to sleep with. His position of power (as showrunner/creator/director/whatever) is an issue, but people assume that the women he slept with were without agency, and felt pressured. As noted before, assuming the women were at the mercy of "sleezy sex-addict Whedon" is itself sexist, and removes agency from them, as well as removing responsibility for their actions and placing it solely on Whedon.
Maybe this is a leap that's accurate. Maybe not. But it's presumptive to just assume this without further data.
Also to note, even if he doesn't explicitly use his power, he is still in a higher position, and therefore it's still bad. But we can acknowledge that without removing sexual agency from women.