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[Dryk]

Disappointing but not surprising. There evidence has been slowly piling up for years that Whedon's not as pure as he claims.

I imagine most dudes who loudly proclaim how feminist they are are like that solely to get in women's pants.

That's always been my experience. Men who aren't just let their actions speak for themselves.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So No. You don't have any numbers to back anything you're saying.

I've routinely had bosses purposely hire young, attractive female workers in positions like Admin Assistant, brag about it among some of his male employees, and proceed to court them for intimacy. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. Also all of these guys were married.

Sorry, I guess I'd ask you what numbers you are looking for. I'm pretty sure there isn't a numerical value to the severity of sex between people of different levels of authority in different industries.

But yes, obviously you're asking for frequency, which is interesting since you're replying to a post that said that it probably happens in office settings more frequently. You made it really clear that you went with a certain argumentative narrative and didn't know what to do when that narrative fell apart lol

 

[danthefan]

"yeah clearly she was a golddigger"

what the fuck am i reading here

It's not much more of a leap than any other of the rampant speculation that fills this thread.

 

[Fulminator]

I'm not particularly interested in who Whedon had sex with, or what his ex-wife thinks of him. I don't think either of these things is any of my business, and I'm neither shocked, nor particularly surprised that Whedon cheated repeatedly on his wife. Nor does it make me think his opinions were wrong, because he didn't live up to his own ideals. Very few people do.

Same tbh

 

[PK Gaming]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

No, I'm pretty sure it's "hell hath no fury for someone who was fucked over by their lying, dickhead spouse."

 

[moondoggerr]

I always hear this line, as if to imply we're gonna go out and harass the person now, try to get him to quit, etc. When in reality we're just simply discussing his apparent hypocrisy.

Fair point.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

How is having sex with fans abuse? If I had sex with Karen Gillan she'd be abusing me?

If you tell her to call you Thanos..

 

[lightskintwin]

Sorry, I guess I'd ask you what numbers you are looking for. I'm pretty sure there isn't a numerical value to the severity of sex between people of different levels of authority in different industries.

But yes, obviously you're asking for frequency, which is interesting since you're replying to a post that said that it probably happens in office settings more frequently. You made it really clear that you went with a certain argumentative narrative and didn't know what to do when that narrative fell apart lol

You made a case that somehow the ethics was worse in the TV or Film industry than it was in office settings once your first argument fell apart with nothing substantive to back that up.

 

[royalan]

"Oh he's just a flawed human being"

I don't know, using your position of power over young actresses, not telling your wife you're a serial cheater and continuing to have sex with her seems a lot of worse than just simply being flawed.

I'm about as surprised that this is the go to defense to handwave everything as I am that's he's an asshole.

We don't know if he "used" it.

The thing that some people in this thread don't understand is that, yes, there are some people out there who find power to be attractive, and will actively pursue people who have that trait.

That people want to hook up with the rich, popular, and decently attractive (depending on your taste) Hollywood producer is really not unusual. Some people find the power dynamic sexy. And, yes, some people do it because they feel they may get something out of it. But that is within an adult person's agency and is a choice that they can make.

We see no evidence that Whedon actively used his position to apply pressure and coerce people into sexual relationships with him. His ex doesn't really seem to go the step of accusing him of that, either.

 

[L Thammy]

I remember hearing him referred to as "claiming to be feminist while actually being a misogynistic asshole" nearly ten years ago. Never at any point watched his stuff (well, without my friends dragging me to see it). Have rumours about this been going on that long?

 

[A Link to the Past]

You made a case that somehow the ethics was worse in the TV or Film industry than it was in office settings once your first argument fell apart with nothing substantive to back that up.

I explained that there's a lot more on the line with refusing sex in a film/TV setting than there is in an office setting, and that there is a lot more to gain form accepting it. There is also an industry-wide cabal of protections that exist to shield sexual offenses. How many office managers rape a kid and then have many powerful people in their industry come to his defense? Of course abuse of power in an office setting is a problem, but that doesn't change that cases of it in film and TV are a greater ethical quandary.

 

[Dizzy]

Not surprised at all having seen some of his tweets.

 

[SRG01]

I remember hearing him referred to as "claiming to be feminist while actually being a misogynistic asshole" nearly ten years ago. Never at any point watched his stuff (well, without my friends dragging me to see it). Have rumours about this been going on that long?

From as early as Buffy/Angel, I believe.

 

[SArcher]

I'm assuming it was SMG was the one Joss was possibly sleeping with going off this earlier post:

My money is on Amy Acker, Felicia Day and Eliza Dushku.

 

[lightskintwin]

I explained that there's a lot more on the line with refusing sex in a film/TV setting than there is in an office setting, and that there is a lot more to gain form accepting it. There is also an industry-wide cabal of protections that exist to shield sexual offenses. How many office managers rape a kid and then have many powerful people in their industry come to his defense?

What's more on the line in refusing sex is relative to that individual and their personal situation.

Plenty of Companies will cover up/ignore things in order to protect their Brand especially the higher/valuable the person is and will only react punitively once things have been revealed and they're forced too.

 

[Jarmel]

My money is on Amy Acker, Felicia Day and Eliza Dushku.

Honestly the person doesn't matter but rather the fact that most of these women have moved on with their lives and are in relationships with other people. I doubt anyone will come forward even if true at this juncture.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What's more on the line in refusing sex is relative to that individual and their personal situation.

Plenty of Companies will cover up things in order to protect their Brand especially the higher/valuable the person is and will only react punitively once things have been revealed.

Yes, and entire industries protect rapists in TV and film. It's not like Lionsgate is going to bat for a well-loved industry figure who did wrong, everyone is. The fact that people in film and TV have much greater access is also a reason why it's more severe. Child sexual assault for instance is not nearly as much an issue in an office setting, nor will we see customers (or fans) experience abuse in the same way they may experience it in media industries.

 

[dbztrk]

Not surprising in the least. I hope the actors from his shows expose what it was like working with him. He did Charisma Carpenter dirty.

 

[Mechanized]

Cheating once? People make mistakes. Multiple times? Piece of shit. Don't be married or in a committed relationship if you can't handle what comes with it.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I'm not particularly interested in who Whedon had sex with, or what his ex-wife thinks of him. I don't think either of these things is any of my business, and I'm neither shocked, nor particularly surprised that Whedon cheated repeatedly on his wife. Nor does it make me think his opinions were wrong, because he didn't live up to his own ideals. Very few people do.

pretty much.

i've never cheated, and don't condone it, but it's insanely common and i can't throw out every positive thing someone has done because they've cheated on people.

also, cheating isn't an equal sin for everyone. its a more difficult thing to avoid for wealthy/attractive/powerful folks becuase they frankly have more opportunties. and on the checklist of attractive, wealthy, and powerful, joss is inarguably at least two of those things.

 

[Quixzlizx]

/\/\/\/\
I really disagree with this post, though. That's such a pathetic rationalization. "All of these women wanted me, so I had no choice!"

I honestly don't really know much about Whedon's politics, but being a feminist and a philanderer isn't mutually exclusive, is it? It makes him an asshole, but not necessarily a hypocrite.

 

[SArcher]

Cheating once? People make mistakes. Multiple times? Piece of shit. Don't be married or in a committed relationship if you can't handle what comes with it.

Yeah. His defense is also hilarious. "But honey, I had to fuck all those girls".

 

[border]

Despite being a big fan of Whedon's work, I've always been kinda irritated by the cult of personality surrounding the man himself. I hope this ratchets all that God-worship down a notch.

 

[lightskintwin]

Yes, and entire industries protect rapists in TV and film. It's not like Lionsgate is going to bat for a well-loved industry figure who did wrong, everyone is. The fact that people in film and TV have much greater access is also a reason why it's more severe. Child sexual assault for instance is not nearly as much an issue in an office setting, nor will we see customers (or fans) experience abuse in the same way they may experience it in media industries.

Ok, now you've changed the argument. We're talking about the prevalence and extent of power dynamics/abuse of superior, inferior work relationships at different types of workplaces and it's now changed to protecting child sexual assaultants.

I think you have to make the distinction that TV/Film as well as Music is an Arts industry as well as a business and that the "artists" specifically in the TV/Film industry are work for hire. For some, it's easy to separate the artist and their art, from their personal transgressions.

 

[exmachina64]

Why are so many replies going "not sure if I believe her because she's his ex"? Dude admits 99% of it in his own letter. Also: anyone would be spiteful if they found out their partner cheated on them, habitually, during the entire marriage.

Also, "what does this have to do with feminism": First of all, habitually cheating on and lying to your partner is not a very feminist thing to do. Second, leveraging your position of power as a showrunner and your feminist creds to get close to women and then bang them is incredibly un-feminist. Again, something he cops to himself in his letter. None of these things are respectful to women, so it follows that it isn't feminist. Not rocket science here guys.

But how do we know?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Ok, now you've changed the argument. We're talking about the prevalence and extent of power dynamics/abuse of superior, inferior work relationships at different types of workplaces and it's now changed to protecting child sexual assaultants.

I think you have to make the distinction that TV/Film as well as Music is an Arts industry as well as a business and that the "artists" specifically in the TV/Film industry are work for hire. For some, it's easy to separate the artist and their art, from their personal transgressions.

I was never talking about prevalence, and in fact clarified early on that I was talking about severity.

 

[lightskintwin]

I was never talking about prevalence, and in fact clarified early on that I was talking about severity.

That's what I meant with Extent of it. However severity is a much better word, that I frustratingly could't think of when I was trying to think of it and instead used extent. LOL

 

[The Illiterati]

I'm not shocked. But I'm kind of tired of people putting celebs and writers and directors on pedestals in general. Most of them will have to get pulled down eventually.

 

[legend166]

Who cares if it makes him a good or bad feminist?

Being a good or bad person is much more important. In this case, assuming her accusations are true, he's a horrible husband and father as well as a man who abuses his powerful positions for personal gain.

Had to laugh at this "out of respect for the children" line. What a jerk.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Now has a ridiculous new meaning.

 

[Krauser Kat]

Im glad she dragged him. No point in keeping these things secret.

 

[PersonAndStuff]

“When I was running ‘Buffy,’ I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.”​

This is right in line with how Joss Whedon wrote his "wicked sexy" Wonder Woman script.

Not the thrust of this thread but I will call a bunch of bullshit on this. Someone just found an old draft and posted stuff out of context and attributed it to him.

A. We dont know this was his draft. People just assumed because they have a bone to pick.
B. Context matters. It really actually does.
C. This is not a final draft. It would be nice if everyone spat everything out perfect on the first go but that doesn't happen. Scripts are hard. Like actually very hard. No one should stand over the keyboard and judge for quality or message.

 

[7Th]

It's time to get Snyder back.

 

[Fork on the Left]

Fuck this man. Getting what he deserves.

 

[Takuan]

I get that it's only one side of the story, but I fully believe the accusations of infidelity here. The majority of men simply aren't equipped for that kind of power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS5FLqfi3qE

 

[traveler]

If you tell her to call you Thanos..

At the risk of thatsthejoke-ing this..... is this just so she can say "Thanos is in this"

 

[tootie923]

http://www.quotes.net/show-quote/12076

Faith:
Thanks, sugar daddy.

Mayor Wilkins:
Now Faith, you know I don't like that. I'm a family man. Now, let's kill your little friend.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

C. This is not a final draft. It would be nice if everyone spat everything out perfect on the first go but that doesn't happen. Scripts are hard. Like actually very hard. No one should stand over the keyboard and judge for quality or message.

If he wrote it, the fact that it may or may not be the final draft means dick.

If he wrote it, he still wrote that shit.

When I rewrite something, it's because it's written poorly. So are you suggesting that, if Whedon did write this, he suddenly learned between the first and last drafts that sexism is bad? Going "I should not be so sexist here" if you actually have sexist views does not make you Not Sexist.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

If Joss was gay and this was his ex husband talking about Joss using his power to cheat and sleep with dudes, would that still make him less of a feminist?

I guess I don't see how someone who seems to always put his female characters in the best light is not a real feminist because he cheated on spouse.

He's a sick for not honoring his marriage, not for talking down to her like she's worth less than him due to her sex.

 

[jtb]

The only thing less surprising than this news is all the 'feminists' in this thread smearing his ex-wife.

 

[OBias]

Joss is gross. I wonder how big the backlash will be.

 

[iammeiam]

I dunno, seems like a "needs more info" situation; jumping to the conclusion that young women are being taken advantage of is actually a long standing aspect of the sexist patriarchy.

It's also possible young women with agency got what they wanted, and since Joss was married that makes him an asshole, but I don't see proof of hypocrisy.

If we're accepting the wife's quotes of him as true, this is what makes it problematic for me:

Then later, after he confessed everything, he told me, “I let myself love you. I stopped worrying about the contradiction. As a guilty man I knew the only way to hide was to act as though I were righteous. And as a husband, I wanted to be with you like we had been. I lived two lives.” When he walked out of our marriage, and was trying to make “things seem less bewildering” to help me understand how he could have lied to me for so long, he said, “In many ways I was the HEIGHT of normal, in this culture. We’re taught to be providers and companions and at the same time, to conquer and acquire — specifically sexually — and I was pulling off both!”

He's not really framing it as weakness, but as falling prey to stereotypical base male urges. These aren't attractive women he connected briefly with, they were things to be conquered or acquired. The actual way his words seem to frame the situation make it seem like he either was taking advantage of his position of power, or at least wanted to think he was, since it fulfilled the power aspect of the societal norm he's pointing at. The stuff attributed to him doesn't really read as moments of weakness when a man is confronted with a woman he considers his equal, so much as a man realizing he has power, that power makes him attractive to some super hot chicks, and he can totally get laid.

I don't think he needs to be run out of town or anything, but I do hope this is the end of problematic stuff in his work getting brushed aside because he's a big ol' feminist.

 

[Staccat0]

If he wrote it, the fact that it may or may not be the final draft means dick.

If he wrote it, he still wrote that shit.

When I rewrite something, it's because it's written poorly. So are you suggesting that, if Whedon did write this, he suddenly learned between the first and last drafts that sexism is bad? Going "I should not be so sexist here" if you actually have sexist views does not make you Not Sexist.

Who knows who cares honestly?

 

[Kelsdesu]

I'm not particularly interested in who Whedon had sex with, or what his ex-wife thinks of him. I don't think either of these things is any of my business, and I'm neither shocked, nor particularly surprised that Whedon cheated repeatedly on his wife. Nor does it make me think his opinions were wrong, because he didn't live up to his own ideals. Very few people do.

I agree with you.

 

[RinsFury]

Joss admitted that for the next decade and a half, he hid multiple affairs and a number of inappropriate emotional ones that he had with his actresses, co-workers, fans and friends, while he stayed married to me.

Sounds like a real scumbag. Fuck him.

 

[VenomousCoffee]

1) Cheating doesn't make him not a feminist.

2) If that leaked WW script is really his, combined with the gender stuff from Avengers, Firefly, etc, then I could say that makes him not a feminist.

3) Having sex with women over whom he has professional authority is hugely problematic. I can look the other way once or twice if there's no quid pro quo (feelings happen, desire happens), but habitually, or any sniff of it being for favor, that can't pass.

4) There's more than a little discussion in this thread that strikes me of the "women can't consent to sex" type, which I had thought was long past its due date. But someone at work was using it recently, so shrug, I guess.

5) I don't know what Whedon has said in this letter people referenced, but I'm really really not inclined to believe an ex-spouse about the specifics on a partner's cheating.

6) Did she really say she has ptsd from his cheating? If so, I think that's enormously disrespectful to people who have been through real trauma.

7) Last week I found out a young woman over whom I had authority complained to my supervisor that I DIDN'T flirt with her. Sex and power are a lot more complicated than some are treating it here.

 

[LotusHD]

1) Cheating doesn't make him not a feminist.

2) If that leaked WW script is really his, combined with the gender stuff from Avengers, Firefly, etc, then I could say that makes him not a feminist.

3) Having sex with women over whom he has professional authority is hugely problematic. I can look the other way once or twice if there's no quid pro quo (feelings happen, desire happens), but habitually, or any sniff of it being for favor, that can't pass.

4) There's more than a little discussion in this thread that strikes me of the "women can't consent to sex" type, which I had thought was long past its due date. But someone at work was using it recently, so shrug, I guess.

5) I don't know what Whedon has said in this letter people referenced, but I'm really really not inclined to believe an ex-spouse about the specifics on a partner's cheating.

6) Did she really say she has ptsd from his cheating? If so, I think that's enormously disrespectful to people who have been through real trauma.

7) Last week I found out a young woman over whom I had authority complained to my supervisor that I DIDN'T flirt with her. Sex and power are a lot more complicated than some are treating it here.

Lol what

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Who knows who cares honestly?

You don't get to walk into a conversation and say this.

 

[dead souls]

I guess I don't see how someone who seems to always put his female characters in the best light is not a real feminist because he cheated on spouse.

He treats fake women well, so he can treat real ones like garbage? Did you think you this through?

 

[RinsFury]

1) Cheating doesn't make him not a feminist.

2) If that leaked WW script is really his, combined with the gender stuff from Avengers, Firefly, etc, then I could say that makes him not a feminist.

3) Having sex with women over whom he has professional authority is hugely problematic. I can look the other way once or twice if there's no quid pro quo (feelings happen, desire happens), but habitually, or any sniff of it being for favor, that can't pass.

4) There's more than a little discussion in this thread that strikes me of the "women can't consent to sex" type, which I had thought was long past its due date. But someone at work was using it recently, so shrug, I guess.

5) I don't know what Whedon has said in this letter people referenced, but I'm really really not inclined to believe an ex-spouse about the specifics on a partner's cheating.

6) Did she really say she has ptsd from his cheating? If so, I think that's enormously disrespectful to people who have been through real trauma.

7) Last week I found out a young woman over whom I had authority complained to my supervisor that I DIDN'T flirt with her. Sex and power are a lot more complicated than some are treating it here.

Being emotionally abused for years isn't traumatizing? Who are you to decide that? She literally had her entire life ripped out from under her.