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Ketogenic Diet and its effect on mental health
- Thread starter Thesuffering79
- Start date
- Opinion Science
Rat Rage
Member
The best diet-related effect on mental health can be achieved by literally not eating anything at all, in other words, just plain water fasting. REAL fasting. It means: not eating at all for a couple of days, just drinking plenty of water. 7 days up to 14 days any human without severe diseases can "survive".
DavidGzz
Gold Member
If morbidly obese and approved by a doctor to circumvent an early death,, maybe. I would lose healthy lean mass and be miserable. Sounds like you are buying into the fasting propaganda. Nevermind that food literally heals you.
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Rat Rage
Member
I don't think so. Let's take the lower spectrum of my example: 7 days. In these 7 days, you won't lose much lean mass. The body doesn't lose muscle first and not that quickly. First it empties your glycogen stores (1 or 2 days), then you enter ketosis and most of your body lives off fat. Your metabolism will stay at a high level. Only after a couple more days, and only if you are already super lean, which most people simply aren't, you're body is starting to look for other energy sources and slowly decreases your muslce mass (but even that won't happen overnight).
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Ah yes, peaches. World-renowned gateway drug for obesity on planet earth.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
I lift hard and heavy every day. Using fat for fuel is suboptimal. I have enough muscle to where I would lose more than the average guy. Even normal IF is not great for me since 4 evenly spread out meals is optimal for muscle protein synthesis throughout the day but I do it since it's an easy way to control calories during a cut. And you say I won't lose "much", but why would I risk losing any? There is no point.
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Rat Rage
Member
Well, if you are doing this much workout, then your mental health should be in good shape already, so there is no need for you to try certain diets.
CAB_Life
Member
I think you'll find almost any of these "restricted" diets (Keto, Paleo, low carb, etc.) are hugely benefitial to human health because they universally adhere to the rule: no added, processed or excess sugar.
Sugar is literal death and our Nations (US and Canada) are hooked to it like crack addicts.
Edit: Also, if you're active (as I am) long term ketosis isn't ideal, especially as you age. Intermittent Fasting gives you just as strong results and you can have a less restrictive diet. I'd actually recommend IF for everyone, as well as going grain free for general gut wellness, whereas you can't make the same recommendation for Keto.
www.medicalnewstoday.com
You really need to watch the fat and protein balance with Keto, as too much of either becomes detrimental and you're somewhat limited in your options.
Sugar is literal death and our Nations (US and Canada) are hooked to it like crack addicts.
Edit: Also, if you're active (as I am) long term ketosis isn't ideal, especially as you age. Intermittent Fasting gives you just as strong results and you can have a less restrictive diet. I'd actually recommend IF for everyone, as well as going grain free for general gut wellness, whereas you can't make the same recommendation for Keto.
Keto diet side effects: Symptoms, causes, and risks
Keto diet side effects include keto flu, which may cause tiredness, nausea, and dizziness. Learn about the risks and benefits of putting the body into ketosis.
www.medicalnewstoday.com
You really need to watch the fat and protein balance with Keto, as too much of either becomes detrimental and you're somewhat limited in your options.
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Kev Kev
Member
i dont buy into any of these fad diets anymore
juast get your heart rate up everyday, stretch and workout all your muscles every week, eat lots of plants, drink a bunch of water, eat boxed and bagged foods sparingly, consume soda and juices and other boxed or bottled beverages sparingly (yes that include alcohol, probably the number one factor in most people's poor diets), and thats it. its that simple. you dont need to cut anything out completely, especially healthy carbs and fruits that are good for you if your eating the right portions and exercising regularly.
i really believe these restrictive diets are for lazy people who dont want to workout (saying you dont have time is a poor excuse, sleep one less hour and bam there is your time)
juast get your heart rate up everyday, stretch and workout all your muscles every week, eat lots of plants, drink a bunch of water, eat boxed and bagged foods sparingly, consume soda and juices and other boxed or bottled beverages sparingly (yes that include alcohol, probably the number one factor in most people's poor diets), and thats it. its that simple. you dont need to cut anything out completely, especially healthy carbs and fruits that are good for you if your eating the right portions and exercising regularly.
i really believe these restrictive diets are for lazy people who dont want to workout (saying you dont have time is a poor excuse, sleep one less hour and bam there is your time)
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Coolwhhip
Neophyte
When the majority of people is struggling with being overweight, don't you think it's a bit much to say it's laziness. Unless you think everyone suddenly became lazy in the last generation of humans.
Kev Kev
Member
more distractions equals more laziness. we have more distractions in the history of all living things on the planet atm. also genetics play an important role, some people can do all of those things and just have a harder time staying in shape than others. thats fair.
but no i dont think its too much to point out laziness. if everyone did something to get their heart rate up for 30 minutes a day, worked out their muscles, ate healthy whole foods (lots of plants, and a some fruits), and drank as much water as they should, they should be in great health. it works every time. no need for special diets unless you have been diagnosed by a doctor to have some sort of restrictive dietary need.
i think people just want to work out less, or not work out at all, or in other words laziness. also discipline to eat the healthy foods is equally as important, if not more so! however, if youre doing keto correctly then you have the discipline part down, and thats great! now you just need to do the working out part. but thats the thing, if youre working out regularly, then you dont need keto to begin, you just need to eat balanced meals with not too many carbs and lots of plants. the keto diet is unnecessary if youre working out like you should be.
but whatever works for you, works for you. and thats great! i just think the being in shape thing is a whooooole lot more simple if youre getting youre heart rate up and working out regularly, or in other words, not being lazy.
gunslikewhoa
Member
"Diets" aren't just for losing weight, obviously. I've been carnivore for years (I have some berries and raw honey once or twice a week now) and have been lifting regularly since I was a child. We're not as rare as you seem to believe. I probably wouldn't have stuck with it if it didn't immediately help so much with an autoimmune disorder. I'm glad I did, though. I think my knees are better off for it and I feel better overall than I did a few years ago.
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Kev Kev
Member
im confused and not sure what your point is here. but it sounds like you are working out regularly, which means youre not lazy, and i think thats great. if you want to add a restrictive diet on top of that, more power to you brother. but i dont think its necessary
gunslikewhoa
Member
autoimmune disorder
And people employ all sorts of diets, methods, regimes that aren't necessary. I don't believe that vegetables are necessary.
The diet isn't restrictive to me. I never had a sweet tooth to begin with and choked down vegetables just because that's we're supposed to do, I guess. I don't miss anything and enjoy every meal.
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Kev Kev
Member
oh ok.
well then im sure youre aware of how many people think they have an autoimmune disorder but actually dont...? you know, the people who claim the have them but actually havent been diagnosed by a professional...? im assuming youre not one of those people, but its like its trendy these days to have an intolerance to certain foods.
most people have gut problems because their diets are shit, they dont drink enough water, and they dont workout enough. but instead of correcting those issues, they self diagnose them selves with auto immune disorders so they have something to blame other than themselves, and as a result turn to these restrictive fad diets.
human nutrition hasnt changed, but human behavior has. and i think that is largely a result of distractions, laziness and great marketing/advertising by these businesses convincing people its not their fault, they just havent found the right diet for them yet (so here buy our product
).unless youve been diagnosed by a pro (again, im assuming you have), its all bullshit. eat clean, workout, and keep a healthy mental and emotional state. and stay super consistent everyday. these fad diets are complete snake oil for most people.
gunslikewhoa
Member
oh ok.
well then im sure youre aware of how many people think they have an autoimmune disorder but actually dont...? you know, the people who claim the have them but actually havent been diagnosed by a professional...? im assuming youre not one of those people, but its like its trendy these days to have an intolerance to certain foods.
most people have gut problems because their diets are shit, they dont drink enough water, and they dont workout enough. but instead of correcting those issues, they self diagnose them selves with auto immune disorders so they have something to blame other than themselves, and as a result turn to these restrictive fad diets.
human nutrition hasnt changed, but human behavior has. and i think that is largely a result of distractions, laziness and great marketing/advertising by these businesses convincing people its not their fault, they just havent found the right diet for them yet (so here buy our product
unless youve been diagnosed by a pro (again, im assuming you have), its all bullshit. eat clean, workout, and keep a healthy mental and emotional state. and stay super consistent everyday. these fad diets are complete snake oil for most people.
I am aware hehe
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
oh ok.
well then im sure youre aware of how many people think they have an autoimmune disorder but actually dont...? you know, the people who claim the have them but actually havent been diagnosed by a professional...? im assuming youre not one of those people, but its like its trendy these days to have an intolerance to certain foods.
most people have gut problems because their diets are shit, they dont drink enough water, and they dont workout enough. but instead of correcting those issues, they self diagnose them selves with auto immune disorders so they have something to blame other than themselves, and as a result turn to these restrictive fad diets.
human nutrition hasnt changed, but human behavior has. and i think that is largely a result of distractions, laziness and great marketing/advertising by these businesses convincing people its not their fault, they just havent found the right diet for them yet (so here buy our product
unless youve been diagnosed by a pro (again, im assuming you have), its all bullshit. eat clean, workout, and keep a healthy mental and emotional state. and stay super consistent everyday. these fad diets are complete snake oil for most people.
Nutrition hasn't changed? 50 years ago if you went into a super market you wouldn't see 99% of the sugar loaded products that are there now. I just think "people are lazy now" is victim blaming (fuck, I have to post on resetera now). If a kid has 2 parents that are meth heads and they give the kid meth for breakfast every day. Do you then blame the kid for becoming a meth head?
Everyone is marketed to death by huge corporations with sugar loaded crap, sugar which fucks with your brain so it's the perfect crime. But it makes you fat super fast. I think doing something about the source (corporations without any morals) is the only way out of it, not try everyone to go to the gym every day and telling them to resist all the temptations and live like a saint.
Kev Kev
Member
proper human nutrition has never changed
what food companies produce and try to sell and market to you changes constantly. thats why we see these new fad diets, like keto, pop up every 5 years or so. because they have to change their approach to get new customers, or to get people coming back to try the next great new diet. the reality is tho, human nutrition and the things we should eat hasnt changed at all. its still: eat clean, exercise and drink lots of water. simple as that. no need to restrict carbs at all
and lol @ the resetera part. nah youre not that far out there yet (but youre toeing the line mister!!! lol jk)
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DavidGzz
Gold Member
I would never blame the kids but I grew up that same way, was 220 by junior high. I got out of my comfort zone to get healthy because I could see what it was doing to people I knew and loved. I continue now to set a good example for my kids and to be here and healthy for them into old age. You can feel sorry for people and expect shit to change but it isn't, so those people have to take action instead of expecting a miracle. These corporations are never going to change their business strategy. Go out of your way and fight against a life of obesity or cry about how your environment is making you sick.
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
I'm just saying for the society wide problem, telling people of all backgrounds, intelligence levels, motivation levels etc. to just live healthy isn't going to work. And obviously asking corporations to kindly not try sell sugar to everyone wont work either, so it would have to be with laws. I realise it wont happen, we can just look at the tabacco industy.
gunslikewhoa
Member
Keto isn't a fad diet. It's been pretty widespread since at least the late 90s.
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Kev Kev
Member
Fads come and go, but human nutritional needs is still the same it’s always been
gunslikewhoa
Member
So anything that doesn't stick exactly to the standard food pyramid is a fad or??? I don't know that anybody said that our nutritional needs have changed over time. There is only disagreement as to what they are. You seem to have the answer.
This is big news. What, exactly, are the ideal nutritional needs and at what point in time did you discover them? You better let the nutritional scientists know they are no longer needed.
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vpance
Member
Our basic nutritional needs for 10,000 of years hasn't changed but what's been pushed on us in the last 60 years has and we all know what that's been.
Essentially low/lower carb is the common thread between all these diets that makes them work. Atkins, keto, vegan, carnivore. At least it starts out that way. And for most people that's always going to be the main issue because the SAD is filled with carbs. Cut even half of that, replace it with almost anything else and there will be immediate results.
People have been doing carnivore for a long time too. It just hasn't been highlighted until relatively recently thanks to the rise of podcasts and Youtube. All these diets were basically headed towards that direction, as in higher protein low carb. Nothing about these diets are scams or fads really, they're just refinements of what simply brings us back to how most of humanity has eaten for 10000s of years and carnivore is arguably the closest to that. People have just been trying to figure that out in the face of all the food propaganda and misinfo out there these last couple decades.
gunslikewhoa
Member
There have been massive issues in nutritional science forever. The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz covers a lot of ground in regard to that.
infinitys_7th
Member
Keto can be perfectly healthy with fibrous vegetables, nuts, and berries. You don't have to just eat a steak every night. In fact, eating fiber will generate a variety of short chain fatty acids by gut fermentation, which have their own benefits. You want to have variety, like with everything.
The biochemical reality is that eating sugar is unnecessary - your body can make what it needs from gluconeogenesis, and fats work just as well as energy sources for the average person. If you need to be able to have burst of energy, you can always eat a bunch of simple carbs beforehand to build up glycogen, then use it up and get back away from it. But most people don't need that - they need endurance and consistent energy, and keto provides that.
The biochemical reality is that eating sugar is unnecessary - your body can make what it needs from gluconeogenesis, and fats work just as well as energy sources for the average person. If you need to be able to have burst of energy, you can always eat a bunch of simple carbs beforehand to build up glycogen, then use it up and get back away from it. But most people don't need that - they need endurance and consistent energy, and keto provides that.
Kev Kev
Member
cutting out carbs completely is unnecessary for weight loss and maintaining a healthy diet.
heres what i looked like at my peak of eating healthy and exercising (lean meat, plants, plenty of carbs via pasta and bread, fruits, nuts and sweets sparingly, and working out and doing cardio almost daily).
this is all you need right here brother. no restrictions, no weird diet fads/trends, no counting calories, not points, etc... just proper portions and lots of exercise and a healthy state of mind. cultures who go by some form of this food pyramid have some of the longest life spans in the world. just fresh whole foods
you can do whatever you want. im not telling you how to live your life. but my .02 is that its completely unnecessary to cut out carbs, and we have the science and the living proof to back it up. but if keto makes you skinny and happy and youre living your best life because of it, more power to you.
infinitys_7th
Member
cutting out carbs completely is unnecessary for weight loss and maintaining a healthy diet.
heres what i looked like at my peak of eating healthy and exercising (lean meat, plants, plenty of carbs via pasta and bread, fruits, nuts and sweets sparingly, and working out and doing cardio almost daily).
this is all you need right here brother. no restrictions, no weird diet fads/trends, no counting calories, not points, etc... just proper portions and lots of exercise and a healthy state of mind. cultures who go by some form of this food pyramid have some of the longest life spans in the world. just fresh whole foods
you can do whatever you want. im not telling you how to live your life. but my .02 is that its completely unnecessary to cut out carbs, and we have the science and the living proof to back it up. but if keto makes you skinny and happy and youre living your best life because of it, more power to you.
The science is not there to say a ketogenic lifestyle is dangerous. A mixed diet of high carbs and high fat is, but HFLC or LFHC are both perfectly fine because they limit inflammation.
Kev Kev
Member
right on, i wasnt saying it was dangerous, that must have been someone else. just that it isnt necessary to restrict foods you like, and i think people who feel they need to do that should just work out more. i think it just comes down to laziness and wanting a quick fix for most people who go on keto. but long lasting results can be obtained without restrictions, so why do it? thats all im saying. but hey if restricting yourself from foods that you otherwise could enjoy is what does it for you, then more power to you. it just kind of silly to cut out carbs because soooo many delicious foods have them. all you need to do is more cardio and eat smaller portions and you can still enjoy them! why wouldnt you want to still enjoy foods you love? i dont get it. but if thats what you want then thats on you
gunslikewhoa
Member
I never said that it was necessary.
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infinitys_7th
Member
I don't see much of a difference between LFHC and HFLC in practice. It's not like I don't eat what I want on holidays. But just like someone avoiding fat might eat some ice cream or steak or fried eggs occassionally then try to get back to their normal routine, I can eat some sweet potatoes and mac and cheese on Thanksgiving and get back to my routine. They are really just the same thing. And if I really want something that has a lot of fiber but has more carbs than my usual fair (e.g. a baked sweet potato with some smoked meat) I can eat it sparingly.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Again, it isn't the carbs, it is highly processed foods that contain an equal amount of fat calories as carb calories with minimal satiating protein or fiber.
What bodybuilder diets and the healthiest countries have in common are low fat, high carb, and high to moderate protein diets. Not low carb.
Thesuffering79
Banned
Which are the healthies countries in the world? Processed foods are indeed the bane of western civilization.
Kev Kev
Member
edit: i misread
lol sorry T Thesuffering79 i thought you said "carbs" are the bane, but you said processed foods
. which is indeed correct
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vpance
Member
You're sorta talking past my point when you keep bringing up bodybuilders so I'll try to explain again. There are people eating the SAD and are still fit/athletes/bodybuilders. Olympic level athletes even. Has been always will be, because of course effort and working out plays a huge role in how your body performs despite what you're eating. Fit people get away with more so to speak. I still have sugar in my coffee or eat a fruit sometimes because I know it's not a big deal for me. I also know they're not optimal sources of nutrition.
But for the average person who barely works out, what kind of diet would best serve them? My point is that's going to be something that looked more like the kind of diet people were eating over half a decade ago, as in way more meat, fat and much less carb. Now that red meat has been demonized for years with shitty studies people are scared to eat it, have a pathetic amount of daily protein, and are turning to veg or soy products to fill their stomachs. That's the real problem I'm looking at. Eat all the carbs, sugar and fruit you like, I'd just never recommend any regular person looking to get more healthy to do that.
Only 23% of American adults meet minimum exercise guidelines: 150 minutes moderate exercise or 75 minutes vigorous exercise per week, with 2x/week strength training.
88 million Americans are prediabetic. Over 30 million have type 2 diabetes. 42.8% of Americans are obese.
Cut the sugar and alcohol, get consistently active, and you’ll become elite by default.
88 million Americans are prediabetic. Over 30 million have type 2 diabetes. 42.8% of Americans are obese.
Cut the sugar and alcohol, get consistently active, and you’ll become elite by default.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Fruit is much better energy source than fat and that's a fact. Like Evil Lore said, 23% of people get the exercise they need. It lines up with near 75% of people being obese or overweight. Avoid added sugars, sure. Fruit? Nah. The centenarians of the world would laugh their asses off if they heard that. You think the Japanese and Italians avoid carbs and fruit? They are among the healthiest and slimmest countries on earth.
vpance
Member
Still missing the point I see. Also how do you know they wouldn't be even healthier if they dropped or reduced the carb? And it doesn't take much for a country to be healthier than the average by simply eating more protein which Japan or many other Asian countries do. There's tons of other factors aside from nutrition to consider too but I can tell where this is headed, so have a good one.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
My point is there is no reason not to feed the brain and body it's preferred energy source. Let's see. Optimal energy(glycogen), vitamins, and fiber. Carbs also have a higher thermic effect than fat.
The factors that make these countries healthier. More activity, they walk and bike much more. They eat more whole foods. Lean meats, rice, potatoes, apples, oranges, are very filling and nutritious. Much smarter than butter coffee and bacon.
JSoup
Banned
Few years ago my psychiatrist gave me some life changing advice (aside: that son of a bitch has given me more useful medical advice than any other doctor I've ever been too):
-Increase fiber a bit.
-Add a daily probiotic.
-Replace snacks with veggies.
-Replace soda and energy drinks with water and tea.
-If you need a stimulant, invest in a small bottle of caffeine tablets (used sparingly, only in the morning and only a half tab).
-At least a full hour a day with heartrate above 90. Longer is better, but be mindful to not overdue it.
Gotta remind myself to stick to it sometimes, but it's been life altering advice.
It’s weird to watch you pretend like rice doesn’t exist and isn’t eaten in generous quantities in Asian countries to make your argument work.
infinitys_7th
Member
In combination with what? Very little fat. That has zero bearing on the opposite. The Inuit diet is basically keto, and they don't suffer from the effects of the SAD because they don't eat carbs with it.
It's not like fruit and most vegetables are naturally available year round in most of the world. Shit's rare, and it rots. Meat is all around if you have the right tools, and nuts can be stored much longer than any fruits or berries or vegetables in ambient conditions. Our primitive ancestors that drove early selection of our metabolic processes would have eaten cyclically - devoured as much easy energy from fruit and other seasonal perishable foods as possible while they were around, then stored what they could of nuts and hunted when necessary. It explains why the body can handle both nutritional modes well, along with some of the details of both. People gain weight rapidly when they gorge on carbs and are easily addicted to sugar. People are satiated very easily when they eat high fat foods, and keto supresses hunger. These characteristics have obvious seasonal benefits.
You also have to factor in the poorly understood component of the gut microbiome when you talk about different cultures. I feel like shit when I eat carbs, always have (as I discovered years ago) but if I moved to Japan and took antibiotics for a while to reset my gut while eating local foods I bet I would handle rice better once I got acclimated. And then if I moved to the Arctic and started eating mostly blubber I would probably feel like shit again. We have no idea what impact regional variations of gut fauna and flora have, but fecal transplants seem to be effective at altering dietary habits and even metabolism.
I like how you’re giving me an internet lecture against an argument I never made. I don’t give a fuck if you eat keto, and I have nothing against keto, other than some of the proponents being as annoying as crossfitters. Fellate as many tubesteaks as your mouth cavern can withstand until your stomach is satiated with protein.
This anti-carb and anti-fruit rhetoric is peak dumb when we are surrounded by literally billions of people worth of evidence who all consume fruit and carbs extensively. No one got fat eating too many oranges. Shoveling bags of Doritos? Sure, I hear that and comprehend.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Yeah, like these healthy countries are living in the past. No, they have year round access to the same foods like we do. They just move more and eat smaller portions because it is more filling whole foods compared to what Americans eat.
infinitys_7th
Member
I'm not arguing against carbs (as I said earlier, I think either extreme is potentially fine and depends on the person), but you were deriding a fat-based diet with your comment on Japan. Saturated fat and monounsaturated fats are as viable as energy sources as carbs are, and can make up the backbone of a healthy diet with minimal simple carbs. No one ever got fat eating nothing but steak, after all.
I was just giving a theory as to why the two dietary modes seem so distinct and normal.
I eat plenty of whole foods too, thanks. I love my bacon (which has some very healthy fat species like oleic acid) but a nice spinach salad and grilled asparagus are great too. Berries with fresh whipped creme are fine as well. Hell, I can eat a peach in the mix if I want one - it's not that many carbs on a 40-50 daily limit.
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