gunslikewhoa
Member
Yeah. Salt your meat.
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Ketogenic Diet and its effect on mental health
- Thread starter Thesuffering79
- Start date
- Opinion Science
Yeah. Salt your meat.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Every body reacts to diets differently. Eat less processed foods, more veg, and monitor your calories. That’s good enough for the vast majority. If you start getting more specific, the advice works for fewer and fewer people.
crazepharmacist
Member
I'm dieting. I have no idea what I'm doing though. Just eating less. Cut out carbs. And drink a fuck ton of protein shakes cause I work out and I know it curbs my appetite. Is that Keto?
SentientStone
Member
This is what I am on now, been on it a couple of years ago too, does wonders for maintaining my weight, though I am not sure if I feel clearer mentally (perhaps I do).
I don't follow it very stringently though, mostly just meat and veggies with more butter in the cooking process. I combine it with intermittent fasting (one meal a day), shedding around 2lbs per week at the moment.
I don't follow it very stringently though, mostly just meat and veggies with more butter in the cooking process. I combine it with intermittent fasting (one meal a day), shedding around 2lbs per week at the moment.
niilokin
Member
I did 4 weeks of only steak and eggs twice a day years ago, lost about 8 kg while still had energy in gym. It's very rapid way of cutting / losing weight but for most people I think eating carbs is definitely more healthy overall. If not done right I would imagine it will start eating beneficial lean muscle mass too in long term. Vitamins, flavonoids, minerals and fiber in quality carb sources. Throw away junk food, white flour bread, sugar, alcohol. Go low lactose or lactose free. Add probiotics to your diet and prebiotics (fiber like psyllium) to feed the good bacteria. Standing up is good for gut too, helps gas to pass or dissolve, I used to get IBS like symptoms when I got gassy and sat on my ass all day.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Humans evolved eating wild-grown fruit in their local area when it was in season. That's a lot different than eating bananas and strawberries genetically modified and selected for maximum sweetness 365 days a year.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
What exactly happens for the rest of the year when I gorge on fruit? Nothing. We live with modern conveniences. The people who are suffering because of it can't blame the fruit lol. It's the sedentary lifestyle and constant fast food.
Chankoras
Member
Ketogenic diet seem to have good benefits for a range of issues such as obesity, type 2 diabetes, some types of cancer etc, however, there is some issues related heart health, more specifically fibrosis due to 3-beta-hydroxybutyrate Keton.
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So i have been experimenting with this diet for about a week.
Takes at least 1 day to get into ketosis.
I lose about 0.5-0.8 kg a day but you cant binge on sweet stuff or you lose a lot of that work.
Anyway to the meat and potatoes of this thread. I suffer from Schizoaffective Disorder and Depression. And it notice it is greatly affecting my mental health in a positive way. My meds seem to be a bit too effective in controlling my bipolar such that i cant feel almost no high or low. Depression is non existent with relatively weak meds.
But there seems to be science to back this up.
Ketogenic Diets for Psychiatric Disorders: A New Review
What can a low-carbohydrate diet do for your mental health?www.psychologytoday.com
Though I am a fan of keto, I am just glad you found a way to improve your mental condition.
vpance
Member
On its own, sugar is certainly not good for you. But the bad effects of it from fruits are partly mitigated when eating the actual fruit and its fibers. I think it's something to do with blood glucose spikes being reduced. It's also why fruit juices aren't really that healthy.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
There are certainly worse things for you to eat than fruit, but the point is just because sugar is in fruit doesn't mean that the human body is designed to work well while ingesting quantities of sugar that were not available to any human in history prior to recently in Western capitalist democracies.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
How is it bad? Excess calories when someone is already unhealthy from being obese are what people should avoid. If you're getting a healthy amount of protein, vitamins, and fiber, sugar is not something to worry about at all. Please stop with the fearmongering. And yes, no one should drink their calories, it's too easy to over consume energy that way.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Lol, "there are worse things." Fruit is insanely healthy. Stop.
vpance
Member
How is it fearmongering when it's widely accepted even by the crooked multinational food corps? This isn't the 60s anymore. Plenty of knowledge out there now explaining why but here's a deep dive for you if you're interested. Basically blood glucose and insulin spikes are bad and you want to minimize it. That's apart from its inflammatory effects on the body. It's also why intermittent fasting or OMAD are good things to practice, to reduce insulin ramps.
Calorie counting is old school and not that useful if you're eating quality foods. You're thinking calories are all the same but they're not. I mean, sugar would be by far the best thing ever to eat since it provides a good amount of calories and is inexpensive.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Insulin responses are directly correlated with meal consumption. They spike higher but for way less time when a food is digested faster. They are totally natural. https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Your second paragraph is ridiculous. CICO has been proven in countless metabolic ward studies.
If there were some new breakthrough when it comes to health and nutrition I'd be one of the first to know. I read about it daily and my avy is of me. If sugar was so bad I wouldn't look the way I do and my bloodwork at age 39 wouldn't be in the healthy range.
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DavidGzz
Gold Member
The only thing inflamed are my muscles. The 60s lmao. IIFYM is from the 2010s. People following Taubes and Fung are the people living in the dark. Bunch of BS. Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, etc are the experts to follow. They follow the actual science.
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Thesuffering79
Banned
Sugar is sugar tho. Fructose is the worst kind of sugar apparently because it is absorbed by your body almost instantly. The rest of the fruit is very healthy though. That said you cant eat it in keto because it will kick you out of keto.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Keto makes me sad. Can't imagine a worse way of eating.
KiNeMz
Banned
Thoughts on Dr Shawn Baker?
vpance
Member
You don’t get the point. You may be appear to be healthy in spite of eating it, but it doesn’t mean it’s not good for the body. There’s plenty of great looking bodybuilders out there that eat shitty food, guess they’re on the right track too?
I’ll just drop it here though because it seems like you’re trying to aggressively prove some point that doesn’t apply to the average person. We get it, you can eat anything and looked jacked af.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Roided up bodybuilders don't care about their health. If you're talking natural, yes, they are Much healthier than the average man. If my body and bloodwork isn't enough, then nothing is. My coworkers joke about me being immortal cause I look much younger than 39 as well. Fruit, and resistance training ftw.
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DavidGzz
Gold Member
Yep, synthetic transfats are the only thing in food that should be avoided in even small amounts. If you're eating enough fruit to be taking in too much sugar, you're probably eating nothing else. If you're controlling calories, eating a variety of foods, eating enough protein and fat to remain healthy, and getting your vitamins and fiber, too much fruit isn't a thing.
Thesuffering79
Banned
Thing is that if people want a way to lose weight while not wanting to do much exercise and there are options to do that and it works and is actually healthy, why is that a bad thing? I cant stand the concept of gym, it get to me about the third time i go, it "feels" so "arbitrary" to do gym workouts even though i know it produces results. THe fact that there is an option where i dont need gym or other workouts is good imo.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Keto or any other diet are all governed by CICO. If you can do it or any other diet go for it. I never said it was bad, just sad to have to omit my favorite foods for the rest of my life. A way of eating has to be for life. If you can commit for life, all the power to you.
BTW, no way of eating required the gym or any exercise. Not sure what you mean.
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Thesuffering79
Banned
Thats true, but most diets I am hungry and tend to cheat and have to gym or exercise to compensate. I find keto to be filling leaving me satisfied throughout the day. Thanks for your input and pushback to this thread tho. I hate one sided threads.
Secondly, its not insulin that people have issues with it is insulin resistance. The more insulin resistance you have the easier it is for you to gain weight.
Why does insulin resistance cause weight gain?
People with insulin resistance often make too much insulin in response to eating. They may also produce too much insulin in order to maintain normal blood sugar (blood glucose) levels. The body ca…
www.pre-diabetes.com
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DavidGzz
Gold Member
Insulin resistance doesn't change how efficient your body is. It won't make your body burn fewer calories, that would defy physics. It can affect hormones that cause you to be more hungry though. So if that makes you overeat then yes, it will affect things.
Anyway, I prefer IF. Skipping breakfast is routine now. I dont wake up hungry anyway. When I want a taco, pizza, donuts, etc., I eat them without worrying about it.
Some people would rather eliminate food groups. I'd rather count calories. We all have to find what we can stick to.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I'm skeptical because if it was true, wouldn't this diet run roughshod all over the world due to giving it's populations a meaningful advantage over the grain populations?
DavidGzz
Gold Member
I think it's a combo of getting healthier via fat loss and placebo. I have read about it help children who are prone to seizures though so maybe some truth to some claims. Still, fat is suboptimal for energy so it will never rule it athletes.
Chankoras
Member
Is a complex topic, I don't believe you can really claim that to be the case and neither can I.
When you talk about body efficiency, do you mean adaptive thermogenesis? Or glucose utilization and storage?
There are postulations about the insulin-mediated thermogenesis but I don't know if is proven.
Anyway like you said before, shouldn't eat trans fats, so taco, pizza or donuts aren't a great idea.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
I was pretty sure that transfats aren't in much of anything anymore. Not sure why meat, tortillas, and cheese means transfats. Hell, even McDonald's doesn't have it anymore as far as I know.
Chankoras
, look up metabolic ward studies. CICO has been proven time and time again. Obese people have insulin resistance. Weight loss is exactly in line with their deficit. These chambers measure how much their body burns to the calorie. There are never outliers.Also, for a laugh, watch secret eaters on YouTube. Everyone who claims they have a slow metabolism is simply eating too much and moving too little.
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Chankoras
Member
That's good news, although I wasn't referring to meat, cheese or tortillas, rather the oils used for baking or frying those meals, but point taken.
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Chankoras
Member
Have to push back a little about that claim that Obese people have insulin resistance, while indeed, there is in increase in likelihood, doesn't mean all obese people are insulin resistant.
All obese individuals are not created equal: insulin resistance is the major determinant of cardiovascular disease in overweight/obese individuals - PubMed
The ability of insulin to mediate glucose disposal varies more than six-fold in an apparently healthy population, and approximately one third of the most insulin-resistant of these individuals are at increased risk to develop cardiovascular disease. Differences in degree of adiposity account for...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Energy expenditure and body composition changes after an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men - PMC
Background: The carbohydrate–insulin model of obesity posits that habitual consumption of a high-carbohydrate diet sequesters fat within adipose tissue because of hyperinsulinemia and results in adaptive suppression of energy expenditure (EE). ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I try looking but there are too many results that aren't too specific about the topic
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Have to push back a little about that claim that Obese people have insulin resistance, while indeed, there is in increase in likelihood, doesn't mean all obese people are insulin resistant.
And although small, there is a difference in energy expenditure between diets.All obese individuals are not created equal: insulin resistance is the major determinant of cardiovascular disease in overweight/obese individuals - PubMed
The ability of insulin to mediate glucose disposal varies more than six-fold in an apparently healthy population, and approximately one third of the most insulin-resistant of these individuals are at increased risk to develop cardiovascular disease. Differences in degree of adiposity account for...
Would you mind linking the study you're talking about, I understand the role of cico, but I'd like a more in depth look at the role played by insulin.Energy expenditure and body composition changes after an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men - PMC
Background: The carbohydrate–insulin model of obesity posits that habitual consumption of a high-carbohydrate diet sequesters fat within adipose tissue because of hyperinsulinemia and results in adaptive suppression of energy expenditure (EE). ...
I try looking but there are too many results that aren't too specific about the topic
Well, there are studies with hundreds of people from every walk of life so plenty have been studied who had insulin resistance and CICO was still accurate.
As for differences in diets, the biggest difference bar none will be protein percentage. The higher the protein, the higher the thermic effect of food. TEF is 20-30% for protein and in the single digits for fat and carbs. Fat has the lowest value. Keto will inevitably have more protein than the standard American diet.
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Thesuffering79
Banned
You underestimate how powerful the sugar industry is. This diet says no normal sugar. So it is swept under the rug. Most diets that work say no to sugar and the ones that dont are popularized. So that is why diets have a bad stigma these days.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Chankoras
A couple quotes from the pubmed page you linked: "These data, although somewhat confounded by ongoing weight loss, suggest that large isocaloric changes in the proportion of dietary carbohydrate to fat transiently increase EE by only ∼100 kcal/d after adjusting for body weight and composition. Furthermore, the body weight and composition adjustments likely overestimated the EE changes during the KD because much of the weight loss was likely from water rather than loss of metabolically active tissues."
"In contrast, the carbohydrate–insulin model predicts that the KD would lead to increased EE, thereby resulting in a metabolic advantage amounting to ∼300–600 kcal/d (21, 22). Our data do not support EE increases of that magnitude.
Several controlled feeding studies have demonstrated significant differences in EE between isocaloric diets with differences in dietary protein (23–25). Unless accompanied by an increase in dietary protein (22, 26), carbohydrate restriction has not previously been observed to increase EE. Rather, studies that use clamped dietary protein and varying carbohydrates from 20% to 75% of total calories have found either small decreases in EE with lower-carbohydrate diets (16, 27–30) or no statistically significant differences (22, 24, 31–38)"
Theres a pretty interesting documentary about why fats have been demonized over the years. Its actually pretty sinister.
Some of the claims in the documentary I couldnt find any info. Like apparently studies show that the american diabetes associations recommended diabetic diet has a less than 1% success rate, while keto has a 90% success rate in diabetics.
Some of the claims in the documentary I couldnt find any info. Like apparently studies show that the american diabetes associations recommended diabetic diet has a less than 1% success rate, while keto has a 90% success rate in diabetics.
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Chankoras
Member
Indeed, is small difference that contradics the carbohydrate-insulin model. Processes are so complex and somewhat metabolically different, makes it difficult to compare.
"These data, although somewhat confounded by ongoing weight loss, suggest that large isocaloric changes in the proportion of dietary carbohydrate to fat transiently increase EE by only ∼100 kcal/d after adjusting for body weight and composition. Furthermore, the body weight and composition adjustments likely overestimated the EE changes during the KD because much of the weight loss was likely from water rather than loss of metabolically active tissues."
"In contrast, the carbohydrate–insulin model predicts that the KD would lead to increased EE, thereby resulting in a metabolic advantage amounting to ∼300–600 kcal/d (21, 22). Our data do not support EE increases of that magnitude.
Several controlled feeding studies have demonstrated significant differences in EE between isocaloric diets with differences in dietary protein (23–25). Unless accompanied by an increase in dietary protein (22, 26), carbohydrate restriction has not previously been observed to increase EE. Rather, studies that use clamped dietary protein and varying carbohydrates from 20% to 75% of total calories have found either small decreases in EE with lower-carbohydrate diets (16, 27–30) or no statistically significant differences (22, 24, 31–38)"
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
The human body evolved over thousands of generations with sugar as a very rare treat. People who frequently lift weights or just have a fast metabolism can get away with eating more sugar. Most adults aren't lifting 3-4 times a week and should avoid sugar. Well actually.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Sugar is a carb. Carbs have 4 calories per gram. Fat loss comes down to CICO. Eat less calories than you need and you lose weight. Your calories could be 100% sugar and this would still be the case. This would be stupid since you wouldn't be getting nutrients you need for good health, but it's still true.
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Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Yes, if you locked someone in a cage and fed him 1,500 calories worth of sugar per day, he'd lose weight (and teeth and sanity.)
In the real world, mosrly sedentary people are bombarded with temptations to gorge on processed food laced with sugar all day. People who want to lose weight and feel better over the long term shouldn't eat it very often because their bodies won't handle it well.
What are we arguing about?
DavidGzz
Gold Member
You blame it all on sugar. Do the math. Highly processed foods that are hard to stop eating have an almost equal amount of fat(calories since there are over twice as many per gram vs carbs). Sugar is in fruit. It's always getting vilified even when in a natural food. Fruit is not even close to the source of peoples problem with obesity. The only thing with mostly sugar that people are overdoing are soft drinks. It's the first thing people should drop. After that it would be treats like doughnuts in moderation instead of daily, maybe weekly.
I'm just saying most say go low carb when carbs aren't the problem. It's fast food, cakes, doughnuts, chips, etc. The healthiest countries on earth have a high carb diet. The trick is picking the right ones.
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Raven117
Member
I don't know OP. I don't think Keto is a great way to go.
Eating non-processed food is something we should all strive for. Mostly fibrous starch vegetables, meat (fat to cook the meat), and a small amount of grains (like brown rice...oatmeal), is very much a part of a well rounded and healthy diet.
Unless you are really trying to achieve something specific (and not just lose some weight), moderation, and mindful eating is much more sustainable over the long term.
Eating non-processed food is something we should all strive for. Mostly fibrous starch vegetables, meat (fat to cook the meat), and a small amount of grains (like brown rice...oatmeal), is very much a part of a well rounded and healthy diet.
Unless you are really trying to achieve something specific (and not just lose some weight), moderation, and mindful eating is much more sustainable over the long term.
DavidGzz
Gold Member
You don't even have to go full keto, here's me hitting 50-100g of carbs daily and with cheat days
Good job! And of course you don't. The leanest people on earth are the opposite of keto.
MaestroMike
Gold Member
this kinda diet wouldn't work for explosive, fast-twitch type activities/exercises like sprinting, lifting heavy weights since that mostly utilizes fast-twitch muscles thats why those huge as$ bodybuilders eat rice 24/7. but if ur gonna be doing mainly low-intensity, high volume endurance activities like a lot of walking/hiking its probably alright and probably more sustainable in the long-term. no ones deadlifting 200/300 lbs when they're 70 years old, but hiking/tai chi / yoga they can do that sh!t. slow-twitch muscles use fat/oxygen and aerobic respiration for energy. it doesn't use much carbs like fast-twitch muscles do.
when u take a break from keto here's a nice recipe:
when u take a break from keto here's a nice recipe
:
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Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Apples have a good bit of fiber so they aren't so bad. But if you regularly ate a lot of peaches, you'd get insulin spikes and subsequent hunger pangs that would make it more likely you'd overeat.