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[Future]

Curious, how drastic a change would the game be (in your opinion) if they changed the input delay?

How much of the weight does it really convey?

If the enemies also behave realistically: Aim inaccurately while moving, kneel down for good accuracy, look at you for a second before firing, stay suppressed while you fire at their general direction, go into reactions while getting shot (not a bullet sponge) etc...then giving the player tighter reticule control might actually have made it too easy. Judging by the AI in the demo, this might just be the case.

Still a weird design decision since it tends to give a bad first impression. But it probably works in the full game

 

[sykoex]

Matters to trolls.

Yeah at this point it's just Xbox fans egging Sony fans on for a laugh. Just ignore that crap.

 

[Shearie]

So what did they say?

EDIT: Don't answer that, I actually found out the specific reason.

And that would be?

EDIT: Nevermind. Just noticed the EDGE thread.

 

[cakefoo]

I am glad you don't wish to reply since I have been a dev for over 15 years and know how device drivers are programmed on a bit and byte level.

You on the other hand are simply attempting to derail the thread with made up facts.

As I stated many times, you are free to dislike their design choices but don't make stuff up unless you want to be called out. I have given you an "out". Please take it. Feel free to dislike their design choices.

BTW... I am not the only dev guy here though I might be the only one to take the time to respond to you.

WHOAguitarninja was very specific in his analysis that the laggy feeling might not be intentional, and might just be a result of all the heavy rendering. I do know this: the game doesn't feel responsive enough for people who demand tight controls. You guys are so quick to brush off the complaints as if everyone's a whining COD fanboy, and I can't respect this kind of simplistic argument.

 

[iceatcs]

I'm truly sorry if you have 'laggy' but seriously I have really blast time after slight disappointment first time..
Try with your drug or booze

Hype Train still moving for me.

 

[MvmntInGrn]

Take the Edge whining into the Edge thread. No one wants all that whining over reviews in here anymore. You've got a demo now, make a decision on your own.

I opened the Edge thread, took maybe three posts before I decided I should bail.

You're right, we have a demo now. No need to bicker over scores one may disagree with. They aren't going to change their minds and chances are neither will people enjoying the demo.

 

[pseudocaesar]

Is it? I thought Halo Wars was releasing in March.

Yeh but cmon, do you honestly expect it to be number 1 with like 2 days of sales for the Febuary NPD? Its the March NPD that we can waggle our e-swords over.

 

[cakefoo]

No the animation is not the case. Just try navigation the menus...there's clear input lag present. The lag is either purposefully built in to the base of the game (which is just very poor coding practice), or it's a by-product of their rendering technique. I think if the lag were intentional, it would not be present in the menus. Because of that, I don't think it'll ever change.

You could say that the menus have a certain weightiness to them. But seriously- come on people (Untold Dreams, Private Hoffman, etc). There's gotta be more to it than design choice.

 

[Private Hoffman]

EDGE comments:

This intimate, sizzling combat feels more like that of FEAR, but is actually more like [...] Black

A gun game of the truest sense, its bullets and ragdolls offer a literal take on the 'theatre' of war.

A quasi-tactical shooter, its action rivals any in STALKER or COD4

Sounds great!

But apparently the game has:
No sense of humour; too much swearing from your irritating co-soldier, Rico; story is awful; "defaults to the genre's worst impulse" all the time (using obvioiusly-placed hardware, for the most part).

Multiplayer is amazing, apparently, but (final paragraph):

"Thanks largely to its online play, Killzone 2 should find itself a fanbase no one can overlook. In singleplayer, it's a testament to craft and imagination, if only because one is so immaculate while the other barely exists. It fights a great battle, it's just a shame about the war."

Wow. So the multiplayer is amazing. Sounds good.

Just finished reading Edge's review of this, they liked the gunplay, the story 'stinks', the Helghast provide some of the best enemy AI seen yet, FEAR is name checked along with Stalker and COD4, the levels could be played in any order and still have no effect on the plot, multiplayer is good and probably bolsters the score of 7/10

So....erm. 7/10?

Uh.

The negatives I can gather is that they didn't like the story much and the voice acting was very crude. Gee, sounds similar to another game that they gave a 9.

Yet, the actual GAMEPLAY and ONLINE is amazing featuring some of the best AI in a game. The graphics and polish, they noted, were also stunning.

What a stupid line of reasoning if they really knocked the game down that much for those issues.

Seriously, is there anything more to this review I'm missing? If that's the comments they made, and the score they gave it, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Yeh but cmon, do you honestly expect it to be number 1 with like 2 days of sales for the Febuary NPD? Its the March NPD that we can waggle our e-swords over.

March has RE5 and Halo Wars, though. Unfortunate release timing (end of month followed by another month of two o0ther major game releases) is probably going to steal some of KZ2's NPD "glory", for whatever that's worth (

Spoiler

hint: nothing

).

 

[lupinko]

Okay everybody back on the THRILLZONE BATTLECRUISER with the CANNONS set on THRILL.

 

[MvmntInGrn]

EDGE comments:



Sounds great!



Wow. So the multiplayer is amazing. Sounds good.



So....erm. 7/10?

Uh.

The negatives I can gather is that they didn't like the story much and the voice acting was very crude. Gee, sounds similar to another game that they gave a 9.

Yet, the actual GAMEPLAY and ONLINE is amazing.

What a stupid line of reasoning if they really knocked the game down that much for those issues.

While I agree with you if thats all they had to say...

Why did you have to bring it here! It was just settling down.

 

[TTP]

I'm quite speechless about the reasoning behind that score to be honest. There must be something else.

 

[Private Hoffman]

While I agree with you if thats all they had to say...

Why did you have to bring it here! It was just settling down.

Sorry, I'm discussing it in here because I promised I wouldn't say anything in the Edge 199 thread. Check my reply :lol I'm a man of my word.

 

[UntoldDreams]

WHOAguitarninja was very specific in his analysis that the laggy feeling might not be intentional, and might just be a result of all the heavy rendering. I do know this: the game doesn't feel responsive enough for people who demand tight controls. You guys are so quick to brush off the complaints as if everyone's a whining COD fanboy, and I can't respect this kind of simplistic argument.

I never brushed you off. As I said before... you saying that the gameplay is too slow or sluggish to response and should be faster (for you) is a perfectly 100% valid statement.

What I have been saying is that you cannot say the system is poorly coded or broken or missing input or missing input frames or anything like that. That is wrong.

cake... Believe me it has most certainly ended up this way by design (either for smooth animation, weighty feeling, just to be diffferent, etc.).

(I like the gameplay)

 

[lupinko]

They're probably still pissed that Rico didn't know who Shakespeare was. :lol

 

[cakefoo]

The negatives I can gather is that they didn't like the story much and the voice acting was very crude. Gee, sounds similar to another game that they gave a 9.

:lol Fuck 'em. All the majority of gamers care about is kick-ass gunplay and an intense multiplayer. Nobody gives a shit if the script is oscar-worthy.

 

[lupinko]

:lol Fuck 'em. All the majority of gamers care about is kick-ass gunplay and an intense multiplayer. Nobody gives a shit if the script is oscar-worthy.

Hey cousin! You want to go see some titties?

/Oscar Winner for Best Videogame Script

 

[TTP]

They should have played it in Russian.

 

[MvmntInGrn]

Sorry, I'm discussing it in here because I promised I wouldn't say anything in the Edge 199 thread. Check my reply :lol I'm a man of my word.

I saw that. :lol

Hey cousin! You want to go see some titties?

/Oscar Winner for Best Videogame Script

:lol

 

[.GqueB.]

If the enemies also behave realistically: Aim inaccurately while moving, kneel down for good accuracy, look at you for a second before firing, stay suppressed while you fire at their general direction, go into reactions while getting shot (not a bullet sponge) etc...then giving the player tighter reticule control might actually have made it too easy. Judging by the AI in the demo, this might just be the case.

Still a weird design decision since it tends to give a bad first impression. But it probably works in the full game

Are people really arguing about the controls?

The main reason I dont want them to change a thing is because of the rather apparent lack of aim assist. The reason COD4 worked so well with it twitchiness is because the aim assist was OH SO generous. So generous that I actually got kills and I SUCK at fps games.

And this is why everyone (including me) loves COD4. Its easy as balls. Its not that the controls we better. It was just an easy game. If they made the controls more twitchy in this game without adding any aim assist it would DESTROY the game because youd be moving too fast to actually be able to hit anyone and making small corrections would be impossible.

 

[Shearie]

I'm quite speechless about the reasoning behind that score to be honest. There must be something else.

In these tough economic times, sense of humor means a lot to people these days. Don't underestimate the power of laughter.

 

[antiloop]

Edge not liking the game. Oh the horror! :lol

 

[Trailblazer]

Edge's review is out and they gave it 7/10. Before you start moaning, the review is really specific about what they liked and disliked, it is fair and honest, but I suspect that will count for little.

Edge's score doesn't matter, and the trolls no longer matter. We have a DEMO
I know how fucking awesome this game is.

This game will me in my PS3 day fucking one.

 

[sinnergy]

Reviews are also opinions, I say screw them, ill just make up my own mind.

 

[.GqueB.]

Sorry, I'm discussing it in here because I promised I wouldn't say anything in the Edge 199 thread. Check my reply :lol I'm a man of my word.

You know what that edge thread was? It was like one of those cloudy, smoke fights you see in old cartoons that everyone steers clear of but watch anyway because theyre curious but theres always the danger of being pulled in.

Youre bringing the cloud. Theres still time to avoid it...

Theres still time.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Is this just Edge being edgy?

They've lumped themselves with the xbots posting low user scores on metacritic before the game was even released with this score. Hope it was worth it.

 

[Shearie]

[QUOTE="Woo-Fu]Is this just Edge being edgy?

They've lumped themselves with the xbots posting low user scores on metacritic before the game was even released with this score. Hope it was worth it.[/QUOTE]

:/

 

[Rikyfree]

Before I go to bed, I just wanted to say that Hoffman is right about the review. Double standard from Edge confirmed for me.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Is this just Edge being edgy?

I tried in vein to find the "arnold_no.gif" in time to post straight after your post, but alas.

 

[DrBo42]

Is this just Edge being edgy?

They've lumped themselves with the xbots posting low user scores on metacritic before the game was even released with this score. Hope it was worth it.

 

[Future]

I hope Bungie takes a long look at this game when finalizing the Halo update. Cuz the AI feels excellent in the demo, and all reviews including EDGE's 7 praised it as well. I actually like it better than Halo slightly, just cuz the AI approach you more and dont just protect zones and areas

 

[Woo-Fu]

..because obviously, anybody with a killzowned avatar is prejudiced. I suppose next you'll tell us how anybody who looks Arabic must be a terrorist and how you always cross the street whenever somebody of color is coming the other way. I suppose if I had your avatar it would be safe to assume I like to fuck cats, particularly ones with knit caps and eyepatches? At this point in time I have to ask myself, "What would Sessler say?" answer: "Do you fuck your mother?"

Please, in the same issue they gave KZ2 a 7 they gave FEAR an 8. If that isn't satire I don't know what is.

Where is Tomonobu Itagaki when a bitch needs slapped?

 

[Unknown One]

Forget edge lets talk about the coolest moments in the demo. Sorry I'm on my PSP.

 

[KeioSquad2]

Hey cousin! You want to go see some titties?

/Oscar Winner for Best Videogame Script

Best thing I read all night, you rock!!!!:lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Zeliard]

:lol Fuck 'em. All the majority of gamers care about is kick-ass gunplay and an intense multiplayer. Nobody gives a shit if the script is oscar-worthy.

I love good storylines in games, but in a type of game like this, I completely agree. It's puzzling because Edge is usually terrific at backing up their scores. So when they write that Killzone 2 features strong A.I., great gunplay, and strong multiplayer (three of the most important aspects of any shooter), and knock a couple of points off because of script issues, it's strange. That's really not what these games are going for. The dialogue and storyline are background noise to the action and combat at the forefront.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

To be fair, no one here has actually read anymore of the review then the posted excerpts, right?

 

[UntoldDreams]

Curious, how drastic a change would the game be (in your opinion) if they changed the input delay?

How much of the weight does it really convey?

I think its an interesting design choice on their part for the slower input...
Although I think it wasn't smart if they wanted to suck in the COD4 crowd.

It would be a pretty drastic game changer though from what we have today to speed things up.

I think that many people will deal with it but certainly the overall majority of people are used to faster gameplay mechanics.

Its almost like asking if Street Fighter Turbo would be better than normal speed Street Fighter or half speed Street Fighter.

All 3 would play very differently even though the core gameplay mechanics are identical. Really tactical people really might prefer half speed Street Fighter.

 

[DrBo42]

..because obviously, anybody with a killzowned avatar is prejudiced. I suppose next you'll tell us how anybody who looks Arabic must be a terrorist and how you always cross the street whenever somebody of color is coming the other way.

Please, in the same issue they gave KZ2 a 7 they gave FEAR an 8. If that isn't satire I don't know what is.

Where is Tomonobu Itagaki when a bitch needs slapped?

Um, where the hell did that come from? :lol

 

[Grayman]

Are people really arguing about the controls?

The main reason I dont want them to change a thing is because of the rather apparent lack of aim assist. The reason COD4 worked so well with it twitchiness is because the aim assist was OH SO generous. So generous that I actually got kills and I SUCK at fps games.

And this is why everyone (including me) loves COD4. Its easy as balls. Its not that the controls we better. It was just an easy game. If they made the controls more twitchy in this game without adding any aim assist it would DESTROY the game because youd be moving too fast to actually be able to hit anyone and making small corrections would be impossible.

I'm not buying that more responsive controls would break the game if there was no auto aim.

 

[Private Hoffman]

I love good storylines in games, but in a type of game like this, I completely agree. It's puzzling because Edge is usually terrific at backing up their scores. So when they write that Killzone 2 features strong A.I., great gunplay, and strong multiplayer (three of the most important aspects of any shooter), and knock a couple of points off because of script issues, it's strange. That's really not what these games are going for. The dialogue and storyline are background noise to the action and combat at the forefront.

Yeah, I mean, I have no issue with their complaints regarding story or script. Those issues are largely superficial to me. The real meat of the game is the AI, gunplay, and the multiplayer.

I don't see why this apparently was such a huge issue to knock it down 3 full points while a game like Gears 2 gets a 9 while having the same issues?

I mean, it just seems completely unprofessional if there's not more to the review that we're not seeing.

 

[Shearie]

..because obviously, anybody with a killzowned avatar is prejudiced. I suppose next you'll tell us how anybody who looks Arabic must be a terrorist and how you always cross the street whenever somebody of color is coming the other way.

Please, in the same issue they gave KZ2 a 7 they gave FEAR an 8. If that isn't satire I don't know what is.

Where is Tomonobu Itagaki when a bitch needs slapped?

:lol ... ... :/

 

[UntoldDreams]

I'm not buying that more responsive controls would break the game if there was no auto aim.

It absolutely would not break the game. How can everything moving faster break the game?
It would simply change the way the game plays and that's the issue at hand.

I really dislike the RE5 mechanic where they prevent you from moving and shooting at the same time. It annoys me greatly.

That being said no one should argue that the developers were "laggy on input" or that they aren't smart enough to make Walk & Shoot work in Resident Evil 5. Clearly they could have copied Deadspace or any other action game out there.

It was a design mechanic they wanted (which I don't like) in RE5... and Killzone has this heavy weighted (slower) gun mechanic as a gameplay system (which I happen to enjoy).

 

[Unknown One]

Oh well in a couple of hours it will be a mes s in here with trolls and ect. I'll killzone 2 demo for a while to get better at my hip firing aiming.

 

[TheExodu5]

Its almost like asking if Street Fighter Turbo would be better than normal speed Street Fighter or half speed Street Fighter.

All 3 would play very differently even though the core gameplay mechanics are identical. Really tactical people really might prefer half speed Street Fighter.

Input lag, and linear scaling of speed have nothing in common.

It's more like the difference between Street Fighter, and Street Fighter - 5 frames of lag edition.

As for you saying it's unarguably a design choice...no it's not. Until a developer confirms it, we won't know. There's nothing that disproves it being as a result of the rendering/display techniques used.

Yeah, I mean, I have no issue with their complaints regarding story or script. Those issues are largely superficial to me. The real meat of the game is the AI, gunplay, and the multiplayer.

I don't see why this apparently was such a huge issue to knock it down 3 full points while a game like Gears 2 gets a 9 while having the same issues?

I mean, it just seems completely unprofessional if there's not more to the review that we're not seeing.

You really need to stop looking at reviews.

 

[lupinko]

Oh well in a couple of hours it will be a mes s in here with trolls and ect. I'll killzone 2 demo for a while to get better at my hip firing aiming.

SEND THEM RUNNING!

/Visari

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I've never had any trouble adapting to any control setup before. KZ2 is no different. People who aren't willing to spend the time adapting to the controls, to play the game the way the developer intended it to be played, are only letting themselves miss out on what could be a great experience.

Their loss, basically.

 

[Rayme]

Sorry but I disagree. By definition the menu is not taxing the CPU at all.

Notice that the rendering pipleline for their menu pauses and freezes everything in the background? Given this situation the CPU usage is significantly less in such a situation (no motion, no ai, no activity, no moving particles)...

It is clearly their design choice of menu.

You cannot call it poor coding practice since honestly it was by design.
I believe it was their "choice".

Read it again.

Just try navigation the menus...there's clear input lag present. The lag is either purposefully built in to the base of the game (which is just very poor coding practice), or it's a by-product of their rendering technique. I think if the lag were intentional, it would not be present in the menus. Because of that, I don't think it'll ever change.

It's not a matter of the "cpu" being bogged down, or etc. More how that "pipeline" is set up. Potentially.

Here, this should help people understand:
http://cowboyprogramming.com/2008/05/27/programming-responsiveness/

 

[Shearie]

It's more like the difference between Street Fighter, and Street Fighter - 5 frames of lag edition.

What! I LOVE that edition of Street Fighter. :lol It had real weight and momentum.

 

[cakefoo]

I never brushed you off. As I said before... you saying that the gameplay is too slow or sluggish to response and should be faster (for you) is a perfectly 100% valid statement.

What I have been saying is that you cannot say the system is poorly coded or broken or missing input or missing input frames or anything like that. That is wrong.

cake... Believe me it has most certainly ended up this way by design (either for smooth animation, weighty feeling, just to be diffferent, etc.).

(I like the gameplay)

Maybe I misunderstood you in one post or another, but you said that polling speeds are designed to filter out unintentional, short inputs, and that that could explain why the demo is ignoring short presses. That's what got me convinced it could be the issue. But anyway, it turns out I've realized it can't be poll speed. WHOAguitarninja said that his input reaction times were only deviating 1/120 of a second.