KILLZONE 2 - input lag now? if you want a reskinned COD4, go play WaW
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UntoldDreams
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TheExodu5 said:
I am simply pointing out that it doesn't make much sense to say that 20 million dollars spent and (80 people x 4 years) 320 man years later that they have a laggy menu system as a byproduct of the rendering pipeline of the game especially since the rendering pipeline is frozen.
You can try to say "without dev confirmation its not certain" but realistically it IS certain.
I have never been to the North Pole. I am certain there are no indigenous Zebras.
I don't need confirmation.
For what its worth I have BUILT menu systems for games. I have built games.
... and I would fire the dev team if they were unable to make a zippy menu system.
D
Deleted member 30609
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wrong thread...?_tetsuo_ said:
UntoldDreams
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Rayme said:
I know full well about responsiveness I've been programming since computers used tape cassettes as storage.
The entire game is FROZEN while the menu is up. What part of this rendering PIPELINE do you believe is there to create an animated lag in the menu system?
What possible reason is there for this? For god sakes people.... Don't argue with me just for the sake of arguing.
Rayme said:
I don't mean that the CPU is bogged down or anything. When producing frames, you can have your CPU render frames ahead of the GPU. This basically gives a small buffer of frames ready in case the CPU misses a frame or two. This helps prevent frame skipping.
They could also be implementing a form of triple buffering. Triple buffering stores an extra frame in a second back buffer. In a game with vertical sync enabled (Killzone is such a game), the GPU can only send full frames to the display device (well, really it's the display device retrieving the frames). If a frame is missed, the framerate is cut drastically since the monitor cannot retrieve a half-drawn frame. Triple buffering fixes this by adding an additional back buffer, where complete frames are stored before being moved to the front buffer. If a frame is missed, the frame in the back buffer is used instead. It allows the framerate to fluctuate smoothly. This could very well be the case in Killzone 2 because the demo has no detectable frame drops to 24fps (or lower). We'd probably need someone from Beyond3D on this one.
UntoldDreams said:
Well there's no denying it. They were unable to make a zippy menu system. Fired.
Your first hand experience doesn't mean much when your analogies are so bad. The fact that you can't understand how the rendering pipeline COULD have an effect on this shows your lack of experience. All it takes is 10 minutes of tweaking a PC game engine to see how easily input lag can be introduced.
lupinko said:
I would certainly love to hear from them. Whatever the cause is, I can forgive it because the game is so damn beautiful. "_"
Rayme said:No, there's still input/logic/rendering/etc going on. The game world could even be getting re-rendered each frame, I dunno. But it's kind of moot. There's a lot going on, and this isn't a simple issue.
But by all means, fire your dev team.
Honestly, it seems to me that Untold's experience is just very outdated. Games of late are rendered very differently. Either that or it's a small-scale project where performance is a non-issue and everything can be rendered during the duration of a frame.
MvmntInGrn
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Grayman said:
In your opinion, majority seem to be adapting well.
Tired, going to sleep. Sure I'll need to sift through 10 more pages tomorrow.
UntoldDreams
Member
TheExodu5 said:
Sir... I fully understand what you are saying. I really do. I was doing double buffering in high school (again when computers were black and white only with pixels the size of your thumb).
I don't know what to say other than the fact that you will clearly believe what you want.
You seem to be saying (your belief) that the lag in the system is most likely an artifact of GG's deferred rendering engine and offered the *menu* system up as additional evidence of this supposition.
I disagreed and stated the menu system is not a proper evaluation because there would be many ways around that. I stated that its most certainly their choice to make the menu system slower since that is something they could work around regardless.
Then we got into insulting quips. Pleasant.
UntoldDreams said:
Well since you say there's easy ways around the input lag on a menu, you can certainly give me a brief rundown. And since it's so easy by the way, why is it that any PC game with triple buffering enabled suffers from input lag on the menu screen?
I'm not saying it HAS to be as a result of the rendering pipeline, I'm just saying it's a clear possibility. It's certainly not ridiculous to the levels you seem to be indicating.
lowrider007
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UntoldDreams said:
Interesting, but explain why WipeoutHD is probably one of the most responsive games of this gen and that uses deferred rendering ?, I find if your going to blame anything then I think the v-sync lock is probably contributing to the lag alot, I bet if you unlocked it the controls would feel alot different, I had a similar problem with the PS3 version of bioshock, once you unlocked the v-sync the controls where very responsive.
UntoldDreams
Member
TheExodu5 said:
To be clear... I'm not trying to be confrontational on this.
If they wanted to make a menu slower on purpose... I think you can agree with me that such an effect would be easily achieved. They just go slower.
For the PC people they most certainly don't care about menu speed and it wasn't a requirement. #1 rule in programming is don't waste your time so enabling triple buffering most certainly slowed everything down for them in the menu and the point is they didn't care.
Had they WANTED to make it slower for some weird menu effect they could easily do so (you agree with me on this one for sure).
Now then If I wanted to speed up a system? I would dump the last frame of the rendered image as a static image, suspend the rendering thread, switch processor contexts to a menu process which uses the static image as background of the menu system.
From there I could create any effect I desired as long as I didn't need anything more than the static image.
Again... not trying to be confrontational since I do believe the menu system feels slow but if the whole game truly had that kind of response trouble I think the game would probably be even worse.
Private Hoffman said:
What was the reason behind it? The scores are pretty damning of their magazine right there though. But yeah, the reason? I have been let down by many outlets I expected to come out with the lamest things against the game, I'm sure Edge will make up for that.
EDIT: NM. I read their comments. As expected, they're a joke. A review written like a 9 or 10 with a 7 slapped onto it for reasons shown by their prior scores.
It's amazing a magazine is willing to throw away their reputation on a whim like they have. When more people play the game and find out how amazing the game is, they'll be looked upon as the clown shoes they are. Nobody is going to buy a 7 for this game just from the MP experience alone which would rate it higher, except maybe those wearing a different jacket would think the score is fair. The hate on this game is incredible. Let it go guys, they tried to fool everyone with that trailer, got caught, then put out a game that looks as good if not better. Let it go.
Hey guys, how about this:
We just got a demo and most of us are enjoying it. No matter how many times we point out how the controls are broken or whatever (I don't think so, I love how it controls and I have no problems at all, but hey..) we are not going to fix it because we are not Guerrilla, and even then we have in our hands the demo of probably the best FPS for PS3 and yet most are just whining? The hell...
So yeah, enjoy the game and talk about something else besides the way the controller is set up, because a lot of us don't give a fuck if you like or not the control settings and we would rather talk about something else.
So please, we got the memo, you don't like the way the controller works bla bla bla, can we now talk about anything else?
We just got a demo and most of us are enjoying it. No matter how many times we point out how the controls are broken or whatever (I don't think so, I love how it controls and I have no problems at all, but hey..) we are not going to fix it because we are not Guerrilla, and even then we have in our hands the demo of probably the best FPS for PS3 and yet most are just whining? The hell...
So yeah, enjoy the game and talk about something else besides the way the controller is set up, because a lot of us don't give a fuck if you like or not the control settings and we would rather talk about something else.
So please, we got the memo, you don't like the way the controller works bla bla bla, can we now talk about anything else?
D
Deleted member 30609
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Yeah, I'm so tired of this.Mik2121 said:
Between RE5 and KZ2, the whole control discussion has just become so repetitive.
Omotesando
Member
Edge seems to score Sony games lower than Microsoft games.
TTP said:
The Resistance 1 review I agree with the most out of all the one's I've read is Eurogamer's second one:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/resistance-fall-of-man-review
Summarizes everything I think about the game perfectly. I think Killzone 2's gameplay (not to mention the audio-visual presentation) is a large step up from Resistance, and I'll likely also enjoy its multiplayer more as a result. Resistance really just never did it for me.
Private Hoffman said:
Lol. I've always disliked Edge (have disliked them for years). This KZ2 score only re-affirms it, but to me I've always been put off by Edge's pompous elitism and ironically enough at the same time complete inconsistency. It's difficult to gauge why they give certain games certain scores even after reading the write up, since past reviews would have you believe something totally different.
.
SappYoda
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Zen said:
Agreed times 100x, the game had a much better atmosphere and visual identity to it before the devs buckled to the 'there's no color!' trolls. I really wish they'd at least give us the ability to play that level with the old 07 color filters (if such a thing is possible).
BeeDog said:
Every level has its own atmosphere.
Unknown One
Member
Edge might be good journalist but the way they score KZ2 makes no sense. Oh well it's their opinion and I don't respect it heh.
nib95 said:
I'm pretty sure if EDGE didn't put scores in their reviews everyone would be very happy about their KZ2 review. To the point they would come up with an "8 or above" impression. Too bad this will register as a low score (7 = 70%) on Metacritic despite not being so.
And why is Blablurn ignoring me?
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