• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Kobun Heat's "Ask Me Stuff About The Revolution" Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Kobun Heat said:
The cursor left the screen. In most demos, a little arrow on the side of the screen showed you where you were pointing so you could bring it back.

I didn't go waving the controller around the room because I'm not a jackass.
Click to expand...
In which of the demos did this happen?
 
Mr Gump said:
So the metroid prime croshair shook all over the place? Because i dont know about you but thats what happens when i try point a laser pointer in the same spot.
Click to expand...
Same here. I am trying to do the same thing with some laser pointers we have at work, and the thing can not stay still. I still think people are getting the concept of "pointing device" mixed up with "3D mouse".
 
Gahiggidy said:
Same here. I am trying to do the same thing with some laser pointers we have at work, and the thing can not stay still. I still think people are getting the concept of "pointing device" mixed up with "3D mouse".
Click to expand...

The way I understand it, it's neither. It's more like a loose control stick. If you move it right, Samus turns right, but if you return it to center, Samus stops turning -- just as a control stick would work.

It's basically a free-form, designer-specified control stick. This is why Nintendo said that some of the concepts shown off with the DS will be included in the Rvltn.

The DS offers free-form 2D control. The Rvltn offers free-form 3D control.
 
What happened when you poked Miyamoto in the eye with the controller? And how did it feel up your butt?

I for one would like to move around the room to play games. It can sense where you are, so you could duck, dodge, physically interact with objects. Block pushing puzzles will never be the same.
 
hmmm,

Maybey your onto something with the "loose-control-stick" concept. I could imagine what's being registered is the angle of the sick to the two sensors, and thus the angle from the tv set.
 
Literally just got back from Tokyo. Nice to see that all the slagging has turned to excitement. I was shocked when I saw the first few pages of some of the posts.

I'm thankful that Kobun Heat came back early enough to calm some people's fears :)
 
Thank you, Kobun. We should all go out a buy his book (at full price) out of gratitude. You're thread has actually gone very well... you should see the other threads!

My only question has to do with the plane demo. Every article has mentioned doing loops in it, but never totally described how they did them. How did you do them? I'm confused as to whether you just pulled up until the loop was finished or made a looping motion with the controller. Again, thank you.

Might I advise you to let this thread die, though. The GAF responce to the REV controller has been that it is generally well recieved, with many people starting out confused and ending up amazed at the potential. However, the other people have been stuck on some issue, typically:

1) How can it work like they claim?
2) How does it work at all?
3) It's a gimmick! What can it do that a standard controller can't?
4) How can I play game X with this controller? (They've actually used Halo as an example... maybe they're thinking MS will be going 3rd party.)
5) How can a 3rd parties is it? (Then they usually answer, "They won't.")

EVERY controller thread has revolved around these issues, and no amount of hands-on impressions or interviews has been enough. You're only going to see these same questions again and again, until you go crazy. So answer what you can, but don't go waste your time repeating yourself. Some just won't be satisfied until they get to try it themselves.



I'd also like to share my dissapointment with Shogmaster. Here he a had a wonderful opportunity to prove, once and for all, that Nintendo sucks and can do nothing put push gimmicks... and he doesn't even show up to the press unvieling! What's the matter with him? For shame...
 
Gahiggidy said:
Same here. I am trying to do the same thing with some laser pointers we have at work, and the thing can not stay still. I still think people are getting the concept of "pointing device" mixed up with "3D mouse".
Click to expand...

I think you might be the one with the concepts messed up here. OK it doesn't stay still, but what game exactly are you trying to mimic? You somehow think a 3D mouse will be more "still"? If anything it will be even worse because it would map your information in relation to its centre position and how far you move it - meaning you have no room for movement.

In comparison, I could aim at a bullseye on the screen and move around the room and still have my aim in the same place because my body would be compensating. With a mouse, I pretty much have to stay in the centred position if I want to stay still.

On top of this a normal mouse works well because you are navigating a horizontal 2D plane (table etc) against a vertical 2D plane (screen) as well as the fact you can let go of it. With a wand, you're gonna find yourself becoming disorientated and relying heavily on on-screen cues as there is no physical reference point. Typically 3D mouse functions depend on slow, very accurate and deliberate motions whilst looking at the screen, highlighting a word in MS Word can take much longer than with a normal mouse, it certainly doesn't feel as intuitive. Imagine trying to highlight a sentence without selecting the line above or below, you have to move the mouse on a very straight and horizontal line, even more difficult when you consider that the mouse position does not really correlate with the position of the cursor.

Besides the fact that the cursor moves off screen should be evidence that it functions like a laser pointer.

Of course the Rev has the technology to do both, its up to the developers how they make it, but really, mixing up the concepts should be cleared up. 3D mouse are severely craptastic. I believe the fishing demo was similar to a 3D mouse and some people have criticised it.
 
What if the TV screen is only 13 inches diagnol?
 
Shao said:
Besides the fact that the cursor moves off screen should be evidence that it functions like a laser pointer.
Click to expand...
The graphical representation is all up to the developers, like you said.

The same way a mouse is used to move an icon (the pointer) over a still 2D plane, in a FPS it can also be used to rotate a sphere while the icon (the crosshairs) remains in the center of the screen.

So the pointer moved off screen for the demos where you shoot the boxes, because that was the nature of that demo.

But for the Metroid Prime 2 demo, I'm sure the aiming reticle never left the screen. Instead, the world that Samus could see was rotated as a sphere. But while with a mouse it's relatively simple to reset the position (pick up the mouse and move it over), it would be awkward to do it with the wand. Even pressing a button would break up the gameplay. This is why the demo was implemented with a "virtual" reference point. There are still some details to be uncovered, like how is this ref. point decided upon by the program, but until I find out, I'll trust the people who've experienced it that it's intuitive.
 
I'm being serious. Jim Merrick from Nintendo said that thier was no calibration... that any size tv would work, which would hint that the controller is using relative control to move the cursoer up, down, across... not actually beaming a laser at the screen.
 
Gahiggidy said:
I'm being serious. Jim Merrick from Nintendo said that thier was no calibration... that any size tv would work, which would hint that the controller is using relative control to move the cursoer up, down, across... not actually beaming a laser at the screen.
Click to expand...

Dude, it uses the sensors, it has nothing to do w/ the TV. Get over it.
 
Gahiggidy said:
I'm being serious. Jim Merrick from Nintendo said that thier was no calibration... that any size tv would work, which would hint that the controller is using relative control to move the cursoer up, down, across... not actually beaming a laser at the screen.
Click to expand...

i agree, based on what i've heard, that sounds like what's going on. It just seems like it is more intuitive than a lot of people think it would be. It doesn't take long for you to adjust to an on screen indicator and for you to adjust your motions. It might feel like your aiming at the screen, but that may not be the case.

Hopefully it doesn't use the size of the screen in any way. I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

i really like kobuns description of the FPS controls... it sounds like it works like an analog stick with a giant dead zone where your cursor can move without turning the screen. That would make for very quick aiming and shooting at multiple targets within a viewpoint. It would make for a slightly different approach to playing FPS, but if they tweaked the turning properly so that the speed was right in line with the strafe speed, and the point at wich turning began wasn't too far over, circle strafing would be possible, and possibly pretty intuitive. I expect aiming to be almost too easy with this approach, so we will probably see more use of artificial aiming difficulties (like targetting cursors that grow and shrink depending on how still you are and how long you hold your aim at one point)
 
Perhaps its using the similar 3D mouse tech in those Gyration controllers, only with the added sensors to give an "anchor" to the virtual joystick.
 
Damn you Kobun!

I was gonna save some money and go PS3/X360 but now...

ALL THREE THIS GEN AGAIN :/

Gamers am poor.



--Edit--

It sounds beyond amazing, cant wait to try it out. All rev doubts gone.
 
There's no calibration?

I don't see how you can actually point a remote at a screen and have cursor on the pixel that would be hit were you to draw a line form the remote to the screen without calibration.

if there was any calibration at all, like point at the four corners of your screen and press a button, then sure, its easy. But with no calibration? No way.

You can't tell me me if you point the remote at the screen at a cursor goes at the exact pixel that the remote is pointing at, then, without moving the sensor bar or any calibration, you physically move your tv 2 inches to the left without moving the sensor bar or recalibrating, that it would still be pixel perfect in where it points.

Either it is not like a laser pointer, or there is calibration.
 
It's not like a laser pointer. It uses visual cues, like a cursor, to let you know what your movements are doing.

If a developer wanted to make a laser pointer game (such as a "light gun" game), you correctly point out that calibration would be needed.
 
slayn said:
There's no calibration?

I don't see how you can actually point a remote at a screen and have cursor on the pixel that would be hit were you to draw a line form the remote to the screen without calibration.

if there was any calibration at all, like point at the four corners of your screen and press a button, then sure, its easy. But with no calibration? No way.

You can't tell me me if you point the remote at the screen at a cursor goes at the exact pixel that the remote is pointing at, then, without moving the sensor bar or any calibration, you physically move your tv 2 inches to the left without moving the sensor bar or recalibrating, that it would still be pixel perfect in where it points.

Either it is not like a laser pointer, or there is calibration.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why people can't understand this? You're pointing it at the sensors techically. When you move, it moves the cursor on the screen depending on where the controller is in relation to the sensor bar. The TV has nothing to do with it. Put the sensor bar on the other side of the room and point at it and the cursor would still move on the screen the same way. It has nothing to do w/ the TV at all.

I think people are taking Kobun's analogy a little too far. He's just saying it "feels" like it does when you use a laser pointer, he's not saing it actually works like one.
 
You know what'd be really funny, if the "Start" menus were located at the corners of the screen for all games, and you had to go through at least two options to start a game. No "calibration" indeed. :D


edit:

Now that I think about that makes the most sense. The rev doesn't know the limits of the tv right? The sensor knows the distance of the remote. When you arbitrarily adjust to highlight a menu, the remote has another angle. Now by hitting clicking the menu button, you're essentially "calibrating". With all that information, (distance, angle, and placement of the button on screen), it can figure out the width of the screen.

Then it's just a matter of having every game have a small "Start" button centered on screen to disguise the "calibration". By hitting the center of the screen, and having the distance away from the controller, you already know the limits of the screen, because games display at set dimensions(pixelwise).

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.
 
Even if it did use calibration, WHO GIVES A SHIT? You're going to point to 80 billionty places on screen when you play the game and you can't point at FIVE simple ones ONCE when you set it up in your living room? God.. are you not going to buy the console because it needs calibration? I don't think so.
 
You can sit with your hands in your lap and just move your wrist a little to cover the entire screen.

You can play with the controller in your lap, but you do have to move it about with your wrist to point at different parts of the TV screen.

I took the controller and pointed it at the screen. This moved a cursor around wherever I pointed my hand.

The cursor left the screen. In most demos, a little arrow on the side of the screen showed you where you were pointing so you could bring it back.

I'm trying to illustrate what happens when you tilt your hand around at the wrist. You can touch any point on screen with minimal movement.

The cursor should be relatively centered. Take a laser pointer and shine the dot in the center of your TV screen and try moving your hand all sorts of places while still keeping the dot centered. Note that the location of your hand doesn't matter so much.

People loved to post that Minority Report screen as a joke, but that's pretty damn close to at least the thought pattern behind the controller -- you just reach out with your hand and start manipulating things on-screen.

I can't really compare the controller to existing tech.

Shine a laser pointer on your TV screen, then move it around. That's exactly what it's like.

As far as Metroid Prime 2, the honest answer is that it was so intuitive that I wasn't even thinking about HOW the controller was doing it. All I know is that I was easily able to spin in circles. IIRC: if you move it further and further towards the left or right of the screen, Samus will start to spin around, and if you bring it back to the center she stops.

No, Samus wasn't always shooting the center of the screen. She shoots where you put the cursor. And at the same time, if you're moving the cursor to the edges of the screen, she'll turn to face them -- but at a normal pace, not zipping around wildly at the speed of your hand. That would be unplayable.
Click to expand...

Now what does this sound like to you guys, a mouse or a laser pointer? Lets not forget every website has called it a laser pointer and Nintendo calls it a pointer which leads me to believe it is not a 3D mouse! The video demonstrates pointer type gameplay where the couple use the torches, where the guy shoots his gun, the dentist drill etc - why ignore the evidence??

and the one which actually functions like an onscreen mouse where you control a cursor by moving the mouse in 3D space - this does not use relative aiming but only relative movement.

The fishing game was the only one that took me more than a second to grasp, because it uses depth perception. But after I got the hang of moving the rod around in a pseudo-3D space, it got easier.
Click to expand...

Also criticised by the french website as not being intuitive.

I do think there will be some calibration for pointer games, maybe in the system hardware menus or for games which actually use it that way. Merrick may have meant something different like most functions don't need calibrating, he could even be wrong.
 
koam said:
Even if it did use calibration, WHO GIVES A SHIT? You're going to point to 80 billionty places on screen when you play the game and you can't point at FIVE simple ones ONCE when you set it up in your living room? God.. are you not going to buy the console because it needs calibration? I don't think so.
Click to expand...


er...that's not why it's being discussed. It's because it's been said that no calibration is needed. Curious minds want to know is all.

Now what does this sound like to you guys, a mouse or a laser pointer? Lets not forget every website has called it a laser pointer and Nintendo calls it a pointer which leads me to believe it is not a 3D mouse! The video demonstrates pointer type gameplay where the couple use the torches, where the guy shoots his gun, the dentist drill etc - why ignore the evidence??
Click to expand...

...Once you turn off the Z axis, it can double as a "pointer"....
 
Cauliflower of Love said:
er...that's not why it's being discussed. It's because it's been said that no calibration is needed. Curious minds want to know is all.



...Once you turn off the Z axis, it can double as a "pointer"....
Click to expand...

Curious minds want to know specs, the function of the home button, the additional add-ons, the price, THE GAMES and other things of value. Especially since it's pretty obvious what it is.

You don't calibrate a wireless mouse do you? why would this be any different? You can have a 40 inch monitor or a 15 inch one and it doesn't make a difference. You can use a mouse pad or a desk and nothing changed. This functions the same way.

You've got a sensor to know where you are, that's your calibration right there. This isn't lightgun technology. The old light guns basically "read" the information that it was pointing to on screen (using color information and scanlines) and would know where you were pointing, this uses sensors.

I can understand why people want to know but the way some of you are talking about is as if it's the end of the world. You move something and it affects what happens on screen and gives you a visual cue. It's that simple.

Edit: Just to give you a basic idea of how it could detect without any calibration. It detects small motion, so lets you move the remote 1 centimeter, that could be the equivalent of 100 pixels on screen. Since the game knows the resolution of your screen (640x480 for example) it knows how much to move the cursor.
 
koam said:
Curious minds want to know specs, the function of the home button, the additional add-ons, the price, THE GAMES and other things of value. Especially since it's pretty obvious what it is.

You don't calibrate a wireless mouse do you? why would this be any different? You can have a 40 inch monitor or a 15 inch one and it doesn't make a difference. You can use a mouse pad or a desk and nothing changed. This functions the same way.

You've got a sensor to know where you are, that's your calibration right there. This isn't lightgun technology. The old light guns basically "read" the information that it was pointing to on screen (using color information and scanlines) and would know where you were pointing, this uses sensors.

I can understand why people want to know but the way some of you are talking about is as if it's the end of the world. You move something and it affects what happens on screen and gives you a visual cue. It's that simple.
Click to expand...

I dont wanna get obsessed, but the debate is, is it primaily a laser pointer or nothing more than a 3D mouse? cos a 3D mouse is nothing special or revolutionary.
 
Shao said:
I dont wanna get obsessed, but the debate is, is it primaily a laser pointer or nothing more than a 3D mouse? cos a 3D mouse is nothing special or revolutionary.
Click to expand...

It's more like a 3D mouse. And it's special because 3D mice don't exist on the market).
 
koam said:
You don't calibrate a wireless mouse do you? why would this be any different? You can have a 40 inch monitor or a 15 inch one and it doesn't make a difference. You can use a mouse pad or a desk and nothing changed. This functions the same way.
Click to expand...


Well mice have acceleration/speed settings which may or may not be settings for the rev, probably not since they want "simple" interface. And also when you run out of real estate on a desk, you can pick up and "reset" the mouse. Assuming the revo remote is always "live" it's probably a little harder to do.


They're not claiming revolutionary technology. They're claiming revolutionary technology for games. Big diff. =)

edit:

I like knowing how things works, what can I say?
 
Cauliflower of Love said:
And also when you run out of real estate on a desk, you can pick up and "reset" the mouse. Assuming the revo remote is always "live" it's probably a little harder to do.
Click to expand...
You could just set the A or B button as a kind of "lift mouse" button, so that when it's pressed the motion tracking doesn't effect the view in the fps.
In fact for fps. games that is going to be mandatory if the controller is to be as good as a mouse.
 
Squeak said:
You could just set the A or B button as a kind of "lift mouse" button, so that when it's pressed the motion tracking doesn't effect the view in the fps.
In fact for fps. games that is going to be mandatory if the controller is to be as good as a mouse.
Click to expand...

I think more likely the other way around. Hold A to move the camera.
 
maharg said:
A 3d mouse that doesn't suck and can be sold for the price of a console controller sure is special.
Click to expand...
True.
 
koam said:
It's more like a 3D mouse. And it's special because 3D mice don't exist on the market).
Click to expand...

I fail to see how you consider a 3D mouse to be a suitable gaming device. You want to adjust the position of your hand? You can't or you have to re-calibrate where "home" is.

I can only assume that you're imagining that to play the Metroid demo all you have to do is tilt the remote in various directions to manipulate the cursor onscreen. Doesn't this mean you have to hold the remote absolutely flat in order to go straight forward? Otherwise thats gonna need calibration to.

Also you ignored kobuns gameplay test which I collected and even bolded for your convenience.

Especially the one which has him pointing at the same place on the screen whilst moving his hand around. I can only assume you think kobun doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yes its kind of like a 3D mouse in its capabilities, its position in 3D space is tracked, but I dont think its going to be functioning like a mouse very often - that simply isn't new gameplay.
 
Mr Chris Kohler,

If Nintendo released a dildo attachment for its revolutionary TV remote, would you fellate this attachment to induce Donkey Kong's O-face?

Sincerely,
Fart
 
fart said:
Mr Chris Kohler,

If Nintendo released a dildo attachment for its revolutionary TV remote, would you fellate this attachment to induce Donkey Kong's O-face?

Sincerely,
Fart
Click to expand...
Been asked already. If you're not going to check the thread before asking a question, don't ask it
 
Christ, you people make my brain hurt.

No, the Revolution controller is not actually shining a laser beam at the screen. I pointed that out so you can understand that it's not the position of your hand in 3D space that matters, it's the imaginary line between the end of the controller and the screen. If you hold the controller flat near the bottom of the screen, then just tilt the front end of it up, the cursor will move up the screen.

revcon6dq.png


In the plane demo, you made the plane loop-the-loop by pretending the controller is a toy plane and flipping it over in your hands.
 
Kobun Heat said:
No, the Revolution controller is not actually shining a laser beam at the screen. I pointed that out so you can understand that it's not the position of your hand in 3D space that matters, it's the imaginary line between the end of the controller and the screen. If you hold the controller flat near the bottom of the screen, then just tilt the front end of it up, the cursor will move up the screen.
Click to expand...

Wait... that's just for the box-shooting demo, right? Not for the MP2 demo? Please not? :(
 
Kobun Heat said:
Christ, you people make my brain hurt.

No, the Revolution controller is not actually shining a laser beam at the screen. I pointed that out so you can understand that it's not the position of your hand in 3D space that matters, it's the imaginary line between the end of the controller and the screen. If you hold the controller flat near the bottom of the screen, then just tilt the front end of it up, the cursor will move up the screen.

revcon6dq.png


In the plane demo, you made the plane loop-the-loop by pretending the controller is a toy plane and flipping it over in your hands.
Click to expand...

OMG THE CONTROLLER IS HUGE




kidding...for the gaming side of gaf
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Todd Howard when asked about FO3/NV Remasters, “We’re working on a whole bunch of stuff”
11
393
Laptop1991 replied
"Halo is about shooting aliens with friends." - teenager me
35
299
Unknown? replied
The Demo's Thread
33
551
Odinnii replied
GameInformer Clockwork Revolution Preview: Rabbit’s Got A Gun
23
309
SomeNorseGuy replied
My theory about the Helix device
Opinion 
26
240
FingerBang replied
Top Bottom