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Kotaku - "I'm a man who plays a woman in Video Games, and I'm definitely not alone".

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NastyBook

Member
Doesn't matter to me. Never mattered to me. I guess I should thank fighting games and beat em ups with female characters for that. Been watching a lot of Xrd videos, and I think I want to pick up I-No when it drops on PS4.

Female Assassin in Dragon's Dogma FTW.
 
I always play a dude if I'm given a blank slate with a choice. However, I like it when games give me preset characters with different abilities with different genders. For instance, my favorite characters in Sanctum 2 were the women because of their abilities and weapons.

Also, I am playing through FFX-2 right now, and although the game's aesthetic is not really my thing, it's really refreshing to have a party of three chicks kicking ass throughout the game.
 

Mashing

Member
I almost always choose female avatars. For the same reasons almost everyone else does, but for me, personally, I sometimes wonder what it would be a woman. By contrast my alts are almost always male.
 
Ill play a chick for either 3 reasons and 3 reasons only.

1. Mass effect style - if its a game where it would be interesting playing a chick but being able to make bad choices.... I find it funny having a bad/jerk sheperd chick

2. If i dont like the male character models; in WOW, i hated human and nelf males, so always picked female for those races....

3. Tomb raider style, if the game forces it.

I dont get the whole making a female character then acting like it thing. I just think thats wierd. I also find it comical when people in wow try to hit on my character until i actually start typing
 
Word. I don't want to stare at a dude's ass for 100+ hours.

Unless...

5663_4a91.gif
 
I play as a male in most games where I can design my own character. However in WRPGs I always play as a female because western devs don't understand how to make attractive male characters and it's impossible to create a bishounen.
 

ajim

Member
I 100% choose a male character if I have the choice between both genders, however, I don't mind playing a female in roles where it is the only choice.

Meh.
 
I have never understood men who have this desire and fixation with playing women in games.

Sure, if the game features a female protagonist, that is one thing.

However, intentionally choosing a female over a guy, when your gender is male?

That is just perplexing and confounding.

I always choose a guy and I always prefer to play as a guy. I can see women having a yearning to play as another woman character, but a man? Ummmmm no!

Sorry, that is me.
 

Neonsands

Neo Member
I recently got back into a free MMO I used to play a couple years ago. They redid a lot of the artwork from what I remember, but the new girl portraits and character models are just lightyears ahead of the guy ones. They have character and color to them, whereas the guy ones are just generic and bland.
 

Basketball

Member
I have never understood men who have this desire and fixation with playing women in games.

Sure, if the game features a female protagonist, that is one thing.

However, intentionally choosing a female over a guy, when your gender is male?

That is just perplexing and confounding.

I always choose a guy and I always prefer to play as a guy. I can see women having a yearning to play as another woman character, but a man? Ummmmm no!

Sorry, that is me.

I don't get why it would be weird for choosing one lifeless digital avatar over another. It would be weird though if you're a man but you manipulate people into thinking you're a girl just to get things or to receive some strange satisfaction from the deception.
 
I generally prefer female characters, they usually are more pleasing to the eye, and if there is a role-playing element in the game, I guess it's in some way easier to make the character not me, when it's a female. If I was playing a male character who looked like me, it would probably make me play as what I would do myself in any given situation. And usually the games are so limited in their options, I would have to do weird things that I would never do in real life.

Of course sometimes I just do what what I would do if I was a woman. In Mass Effect 3 I first tried to play it straight and flirt with Garrus, but that felt weird, so I went with showering with Samantha option instead. That only looked weird.

But yeah, in fighting games it's mostly the looks.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
I have no problem saying that men who play as women, when given a choice of both genders are weirdos. I think Jade is one of the best characters, male or female, but I'd have chosen the male gender if given that choice. PEACE.
 

sleepykyo

Member
I have never understood men who have this desire and fixation with playing women in games.

Sure, if the game features a female protagonist, that is one thing.

However, intentionally choosing a female over a guy, when your gender is male?

That is just perplexing and confounding.

I always choose a guy and I always prefer to play as a guy. I can see women having a yearning to play as another woman character, but a man? Ummmmm no!

Sorry, that is me.

if I'm stuck staring at the back of an avatar, it might as well be female. Oh and fighting games usually cast females as the faster, aggressive classes. Eg. Pai,taki/natsu, vi.

that one time using a female avatar in Sony home was surreal and I'll stick to male avatars there.
 

Tetranet

Member
The biggest finding? 23 percent of men opt to play as women, but only 7 percent of women try taking a walk on the (generally) hairier side.

How can you discuss genders and use this sort of wording and be acceptable? It's just beyond me. Are we supposed to laugh?

I play both.
If people are worried about what playing a female char might say about them (loltaku seems worried) then what do they think about the fact that most char creators and cosmetics in games etc are the video game equivalent of playing dress up with dolls:p

No. I disagree that creating an Avatar can be described as "playing dress-up". It should be self-obvious from the meaning of the word "avatar"


Also, Amaterasu in Okami isn't even human. When the discussion begins with bodily properties the inclusion completely baffles me.


With all that out of the way...

Games that allow the player to create a character to their own specification are interesting in this way. MMORPGs in particular, where there is a lot more freedom when it comes to background.

Personally, I create characters the same way a writer would do. Some are female, some are male, they each have their own "concept" behind them. I've done this chiefly in World of Warcraft, but also with other well known games with character creation, pretty much every -RPG. I do have a slight preference for male characters though.


This thread also highlights a severe issue of sexism, in the context of interaction between people and general perception. Free stuff, forgiving mistakes, being emotionally free are some of the things commonly associated with females in this thread. The first two are insulting at best, the last one is worrying. People shouldn't feel the need to play as a female to be emotionally free, or beautiful or w/e. Male and female humans aren't so different when it comes to those things. Females are generally portrayed as victims of male dominance, but rarely is the reverse considered.

There are very important issues when it comes to human genders, but while there's lately more discussion about them most of it centers around different parties attacking each other, complaining about nonsensical things and stupid shit in general. I guess the same can be said for most things.
 

GamerSoul

Member
I'm ok with playing with a guy character but I find the experience with a female character far more interesting and honestly they're nicer to look at. not gonna lie. And for the most part, I am rarely satisfied with the character creation for guys in the games I have played because of how generic the selection is.
 

wolfhowwl

Banned
Why would Liara T'Soni be under "respectable female characters?"

Her character in the first Mass Effect was very much something we need to move away from.

That kind of pandering is by no means respectable.
 

Lime

Member
"Video games allow for possibilities that we humans have never experienced before"

*develops games with white heterosexual male protagonists*

"I'm tired of the homogeneity of contemporary video games"

*plays games as white heterosexual male character*
 

EmpReb

Banned
Meanwhile in Lol...... 50% of the Champs are female and very well endowed females for that matter. (I swear it holds to the nick name league of boobs)
 

Tetranet

Member
"Video games allow for possibilities that we humans have never experienced before"

*develops games with white heterosexual male protagonists*

"I'm tired of the homogeneity of contemporary video games"

*plays games as white heterosexual male character*

The experiences and possibilities you look for in video games relate to character biological traits only?
 
What? I find it's the opposite. Unless by "cool gear" you mean lingerie chain mail or something. >_< In so many games, the female armour is egregiously stupid, and the same armour when worn on a male character looks just fine. The most obvious example of this is Monster Hunter, but even a less cartoony game like Dragon's Dogma has this (the silver chest plate is a perfect example). In fact, "looks nothing like the male version of the same outfit" is a square in the Female Armour Bingo card. :D
I don't play Monster Hunter or Dragon's Dogma, so I can't comment on that. Basically I want more sexy/fashionable stuff for the male characters (just more armor/accessories period) and more combat oriented stuff for the female characters. Equal parts fanservice and non-fanservice stuff or all.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Wow, the "ass staring is just a PATHETIC EXCUSE" comments are downright horrifying.

I can only imagine them in the context of an angry, sad homophobic father figure and his son talking, when the father figures out that his boy has been playing as WOMEN!

- Son, what the hell are you thinking?
- Dad, I guess I would just rather stare at women's ass, if you know what I m...
- THAT IS A WEAK ASS EXCUSE, SON! You are representing your strength with your avatar or whatever! Grow some balls, or come out, but I wont tolerate this kind of weakness in this house! Do some pushups, NOW!

Jesus christ. Of course I love staring at female asses* if I want to stare at something. And to those saying that you have better things to do: when moving to questhub A from questhub B, you very rarely do.

*Actually, I just prefer female aesthetics when it comes down to it. Muscle-muscle-muscle holy trinity does nothing to me, it is just as artificial as perfect-body females, but one is designed to appeal me, other is to appeal my girlfriend :p

Edit: Also, when the looks are not important (for example, when playing with a goblin or troll), I do have male characters. My only two male characters in WoW are a troll hunter (cause his voice is cooler than the female counterpart's, and a goblin warlock - becuase it is just as fun running around with a succubus as it was with a gnome, only that the goblin is cooler.... otherwise, night elf females >>> everything else.
 

jerry1594

Member
"Video games allow for possibilities that we humans have never experienced before"

*develops games with white heterosexual male protagonists*

"I'm tired of the homogeneity of contemporary video games"

*plays games as white heterosexual male character*
Most people in the world aren't that, and despite what you might think most of the demographic video games target doesn't think like you.
 
There are a lot of great characters in the OP's "Respectable female protagonists" section.
Though most of them ARE the main character of their games, there's no choice to not play a female avatar.


I enjoy playing any character of any gender in a story driven game. For me it's a bit more about the setting&story than the actual character that gets me interested in a game. As in, I want to be in this world but not necessarily in this characters shoes.
Though I have to say playing a female lead is usually still a bit more interesting, simply because there still aren't that many and it's a different experience usually.

But for games that are more based about representing yourself in the game, like MMORPGs, I almost always choose male. It's just a bit weird to me otherwise (especially as you usually communicate with people through your avatar), although I can understand the asses-argument :p
In SP games there are some very few exceptions in which I would create a female character, even though female characters are generally atheistically more pleasing to me. Mass Effect being the main one due to the voice acting. In games like Fallout 3 it's always male because the protagonists are silent and it just seems more realistic to me, as a female running around alone in such a world would not end well...
 

Szadek

Member
I have this constant feeling of wanting to be cute and girly. I always feel this way. I don't know if any of at all, even the tiniest is transgender or anything like that. Or whether I would be abusing what transgender people go through to identify with that. But I love everything cute and girly. Everything that is cute and girly and happy is what I love and what makes me happy. I don't know why that is, but it's my happiness and all my happiness and what motivates me. It keeps me moving forward and makes me love life. It's what I love and it's what I want to become, too. I always want to be surrounded by it and be a part of it and have it in my life. It makes me want to live.
I wouldn't worry too much about.Maybe you simple like that kind of stuff.
It not nessary means that you are transgender or whatever and even then,who cares?
Why can't you do that? Are you that uptight and insecure about your sexuality? Never understood this.
I belive it's a disconect between the player and the character,because what your character wants is not nessary what you want.

Anyway,I when I have the choice I pick female most of the time.
There are already enough game where I have to play a male character and playing a woman can be more intersting in general.
 

Kadayi

Banned
Where there's customisation I'll generally go female, though it's not exclusive. With both Dragon Age & Mass Effect I've played as both male & female avatars.
 
i will always pick male chars in mmorpgs. i don't feel like a woman and i won't pretend to be one. even if you say "your friends know bla" strangers will not. and even then it still weirds me out when i do voice communication and see people with deep male voices playing tiny 15yoldsomething girls in pink dresses. that's totally not me. i don't want to be stuck with that for thousands of hours.


not that i can't appreciate the work that went into creating all these perfectly shaped womanly curves, the jiggle that many games have embraced etc. that's why people should be more upfront. you shouldn't write " i don't want to stare at a guy's ass all day". instead you should say "i want to stare at this jiggling ass of this woman i created all day".


it's different with predefined characters in offline games. i don't mind playing their story when their personality is already fleshed out. i don't have to fill that void.
 

Novocaine

Member
I almost always play a female if I have the option. Not sure why, just do.
The only exception I can think of more recently is I rolled a male barb in D3, just because he looks so bad ass.
 

squidyj

Member
My characters are generally not an extension of myself but crude imaginings of characters, unless it's actually a really RP heavy type deal in which case I go to the effort of fleshing them out and making them seem real. Sometimes this means the character I imagine is female, sometimes it means the character is male.

I found it physically impossible to make my hunter anything other than female and night elf (except maybe a dwarf of either gender) coming from Warcraft 3.
 

Tekku

Member
I generally avoid games with only female leads. I have siblings so I grew up that way. It is the same way I don't want to be caught playing with a barbie doll. I don't care if they saw me playing with an action figure. It just push my buttons the wrong way when they tease me so I avoid giving them ammo in anything. Even now I stick to the habit even though I don't live with them anymore. I guess what is appropriate and proper for a guy is pounded into me so hard by parents and siblings that I bring it into the gaming arena. Single player games with only female lead does not appeal to me nor bother me a bit when a guy plays them. I do find it weird that others play with female characters in MMOs even though they are a male. it is like knowing that they choose to play with dolls over GI Joe action figures. However, everyone have their own way of doing things so I find it too trivial to make a big deal out of it and keep it to myself from my MMO buddies during college. I guess they like eye candy, but I got other means for that and keep that out of my own gaming hobbies instead of combining it. However, I do think less of them when they start baiting other players to give them items for free. The only time I giver another gamer in game items is because I know that girl personally and actually invited her to play with me. Games with only female leads definitely lose sales from me. If they have gender options, no big deal. Gender locked classes in MMOs for example just annoys me enough to not play the game.

I think the main difference is that not all people will identify themselves as the characters they are playing, so the sex doesn't really matter. I'm in that category myself; I don't feel that I can create a character that I can relate to enough because there's so much more to me than just my sex. It's a small part when you look at the wider perspective. So therefore I tend to create interesting characters that I just want to follow through a storyline, and depending on the story and setting it can be both women and men.
 

StayDead

Member
and jumped about twice as much as the women did. When it came to moving around, the men behaved similarly whether they gender-switched or not".

this WoW quote made me laugh, because I play male and female characters and on all of them I jump around constantly. It's like rolling everywhere in Zelda, it's not faster but it feels it.
 

stoff

Member
Total opposites for me. In MMOs, where I know I'll create several charaters, I like to use the full spectrum of the Character creator to make my guys as fun and different from each other as possible.

In immersive singleplayer games I usually go with the most "bland" androgynious character possible. (Which usually means a short haired female without any bust size to speak of.) For me, it avoids any scenarios from happeneing, in which gender roles would be jarring or distracting.
 

MegaMelon

Member
I said it before and I'll say it again, but people must be switching their brains off when reading the "I don't want to look at a guys ass" quote. It's not literally the ass Jesus Christ it's the character as a whole that you'll be stuck with for however long you play. Now I know that women aren't represented correctly in videogames the vast majority of the time, but if you look at a game like pokemon xy you'll see my point. Last I checked, the female player character isn't sexualized and is simply nicer to see then the male.
 
I don't really understand all the confusion or fear about this.

If some people are reading a book and the narrator or lead character changes to a woman do people slam the book shut and stop reading or something?
 

Authority

Banned
many of the characters you listed as positive examples of female characters are punctuated by masculine tendencies and I disagree with your summation about them.

Characters like alyx vance are masculine in every sense of the word baring the genitalia to make them male characters, she is not a positive female role model imo. The fundamental flaw with this approach to reasoning is that there's no clear distinction as to what should dictate a "good" or "bad" female character. Instead we look at ideological demarcations through some pseudo-science and social science readings. As a feminist, i'm becoming increasingly un-impressed with the arguments that people make with the feminist doctrine, they bend and manipulate the ideas behind the movement to fit whatever sort of reading they desire on the characters. What should be happening is asking whether or not the character, regardless of the gender, is appropriate and a good representation of characteristics that express more than feminine or masculine tropes.

But the issue is not Alyx Vance and her resemblance to male characteristics/patterns/persona. The issue is or was about the norm of "badass" character not being allowed to be or feel vulnerable, express themselves as humane as possible; that he must be immune to fear, depression, pain and caring because he is the one and everything else is a weakness and therefore he must not be weak.

In essence the more humane characters become; aka The Last of Us or Tomb Raider, the more likely to see better representation of female protagonists. I am arguing that it is not necessary about gender per se but rather about lacking the will to put more depth to the character.
 

prag16

Banned
If the gender choice ties in heavily to the story, I usually (but not always) go male for the sake of immersion. Otherwise I usually go female; would rather stare at a female's butt than a male's for 10-20-30+ hours.

In general I don't much care. When reading books I can be equally engaged whether the POV is male, female, transgendered, alien, w/e. Games aren't much different.
 

Videospel

Member
I always play as male, my real gender. Both because I want to be able to identify with my character, and for other players to identify me for what I am.
I usually also try to make the character look similar to myself, flaws and all ;)

I found it interesting that the men in the study avoided groups and moved backwards more. Sounds like having to do with being more prepared for conflict. Jumping, except for just being a fun thing to do, may be a subconscious display of athleticism.
 

Sword Familiar

178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
Although I think it's interesting to read about reasons to choose a specific gender in a game from a genus perspective, but I think the problem with most articles is that they seem to assume that everyone who plays these games pretends to be the character they're playing. I tend not to, as I see the character as it's own identity and not an ideal version of myself. I am not the character, I control the character.
 

Zombine

Banned
I think that in the long run you should pick whatever makes you happiest, while respecting others for their choice of character also.

When it comes to these types of games, there is no right or wrong answer. The only time someone is wrong is when they try to impose their preference on someone else.
 

Wolfe

Member
I respect peoples opinions on it but choosing a female character almost explicitly for the reason (given) of wanting to stare at a woman's ass is silly to me and I'll try to explain why.

First off and maybe this will seem overly critical of me but it comes off as sexist in a way. As if the main purpose of the female avatar is so that you can oogle it's butt while you play this game. Also the fact that the thought of playing a male avatar, and therefore being exposed to a male butt is somehow unappealing. It's hard not to feel that it's a bit homophobic in a way and an example of feeling the need to project a heterosexual male persona (which is ironic given that at the same time they're playing as a girl).

Secondly, and this is just my personal viewpoint on this from my experience, but acting as though you can't find anything appealing visually about the male avatar is weird to me. It's like how girls can talk about girls can talk about their bodies and sexual stuff in relation to them and it's seen as ok but guys doing the same thing? Naw man that's gay. Well guess what, you like masterbating? Then you like dick, your dick turns you on whether you want to admit it or not. Doesn't mean you get turned on by other dicks or that you're interested in dudes, just that you're a normal human being.

Now I understand that maybe what I've said sounds ridiculous to some and maybe I come off in a certain way because of it but as I said it's just my opinion based on the things I've learned and my experience in life and with these games. Doesn't make me right (even if I express my views as if they're facts at times).

To me it just feels disingenuous to give the excuse that the characters butt is the major driving factor behind your decision given that it's such a small part of the character model as a whole and that there are so many more genuine sounding reasons like enjoying the look of the female character models over the males (having played WoW I can definitely understand this). When instead some people turn it into "I don't want to stare at a dudes ass", well I don't know, then don't fixate your eyeballs on the butt? There's so much more to look at in these games.

It's ok to like playing as a girl character for the sake of it (or for any other number of reasons), but instead it becomes some sexually driven thing.

Also saying that you're playing a character instead of an avatar of yourself doesn't make sense to me, unless it's a single player story driven game where you don't make dialog choices (GTA for example) then you're playing as yourself through this character. Especially in an MMO where you're talking and interacting with other people, it's still you being projected through this character. Doesn't matter that it's a different gender, hell it's already a different race or species half the time, it's still you (even if you're not playing it as "yourself").

Anyway as I said this is all just my opinion on this stuff, you don't have to agree with me I just wanted to share my thoughts on some of the things that's been discussed up to this point.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
I respect peoples opinions on it but choosing a female character almost explicitly for the reason (given) of wanting to stare at a woman's ass is silly to me and I'll try to explain why.

First off and maybe this will seem overly critical of me but it comes off as sexist in a way. As if the main purpose of the female avatar is so that you can oogle it's butt while you play this game. Also the fact that the thought of playing a male avatar, and therefore being exposed to a male butt is somehow unappealing. It's hard not to feel that it's a bit homophobic in a way and an example of feeling the need to project a heterosexual male persona (which is ironic given that at the same time they're playing as a girl).

Secondly, and this is just my personal viewpoint on this from my experience, but acting as though you can't find anything appealing visually about the male avatar is weird to me. It's like how girls can talk about girls can talk about their bodies and sexual stuff in relation to them and it's seen as ok but guys doing the same thing? Naw man that's gay. Well guess what, you like masterbating? Then you like dick, your dick turns you on whether you want to admit it or not. Doesn't mean you get turned on by other dicks or that you're interested in dudes, just that you're a normal human being.

Now I understand that maybe what I've said sounds ridiculous to some and maybe I come off in a certain way because of it but as I said it's just my opinion based on the things I've learned and my experience in life and with these games. Doesn't make me right (even if I express my views as if they're facts at times).

To me it just feels disingenuous to give the excuse that the characters butt is the major driving factor behind your decision given that it's such a small part of the character model as a whole and that there are so many more genuine sounding reasons like enjoying the look of the female character models over the males (having played WoW I can definitely understand this). When instead some people turn it into "I don't want to stare at a dudes ass", well I don't know, then don't fixate your eyeballs on the butt? There's so much more to look at in these games.

It's ok to like playing as a girl character for the sake of it (or for any other number of reasons), but instead it becomes some sexually driven thing.

Also saying that you're playing a character instead of an avatar of yourself doesn't make sense to me, unless it's a single player story driven game where you don't make dialog choices (GTA for example) then you're playing as yourself through this character. Especially in an MMO where you're talking and interacting with other people, it's still you being projected through this character. Doesn't matter that it's a different gender, hell it's already a different race or species half the time, it's still you (even if you're not playing it as "yourself").

Anyway as I said this is all just my opinion on this stuff, you don't have to agree with me I just wanted to share my thoughts on some of the things that's been discussed up to this point.

I agree...maybe some folks are just being funny. But....have you played Arkham Asylum......Poison Ivy....I just finished the game last night...and man....whoever designed her character, her scene if you get killed fighting her.....oh my,,,..lol.

Seriously, I agree. I will do it or not do it it based on specifics about the character's class, attributes. Tried using Maya on Borderlands 2....and her overall style, special abilities.....I just cant. I will try to build her up more and see if I like her better.

Like I said earlier....I play with Peach alot on Mario Golf. Accuracy n control is more important to me than power. As far as female leads....some of the best games over the years has had female leads. My kids will make fun of me at times for using a female in games....but never if the female is the lead.

I just say Tomb Raider or Lara Croft....that usually shuts them up.
 

Deitus

Member
Wow, the OP of this thread seems to have crammed like 5 different threads worth of information into one thread. That wouldn't be so bad if the information was actually directly related to the subject of the thread, but the connection seems forced at best. Should have stuck with this thread just being about the one thing and made different threads about all the rest of the stuff.

Anyway, on the subject of men playing as female characters, I'm not ashamed to admit that I do it, and it doesn't seem like it needs a complex psychological explanation. It's not about staring at anyone's ass (which I've always found to be a dumb rationale), I just want a character that is cool and interesting.

When you play a game as a pre-existing character, you are not that character (obviously). They are just an avatar you control, typically with their own unique personalities and backstories. You are not identifying as that character. But if they are well written, you should be able to identify with the character, regardless of their gender, ethnicity, or nationality. So with that in mind, all I want from established characters is to be well written, and to have an interesting design.

Theoretically, games with character creators allow you to create a character that more directly represents yourself, but it rarely works in practice. You either get a largely predefined character that you only get to influence the appearance of (Mass Effect, Saint's Row), or a blank slate with no personality that you are expected to project yourself on (Elder Scrolls games). In the case of the former, identifying as that character is already a lost cause, because you have little to no influence on the actual character. In the latter case, it might be possible in theory, but in practice, most times you are not given opportunities to act like yourself, because you are mainly acting out a prescribed story where you are the chosen one who has to save the world, and your personality plays next to no role.

So, considering that I've never played a game with a character creator that I actually felt like my character, I just want my character to actually look good. However, in most character creators, the template for male characters seems to be skewed towards a specific type of male power fantasy that I have no interest in. Considering the body types, the facial structure, and the (godawful) hairstyle choices you get, I can never make a male character that I like the look of. Japanese games tend to be better about this, but even then sometimes (I'm looking at you Souls series) it's not good enough. So I make a female character, because at least I can make a character that I like the look of.

I don't play a lot of MMOs, but I have played a female in one. I didn't role play in any way, or keep any pretense of actually being a female beyond having a female character name. I just really liked the way my character looked. Though I did have a couple strangers randomly send me items or tell me they love me, which was really weird (and totally unsolicited).
 
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