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[troushers]

I find the hardware limitations / art debate interesting. I think in a way both sides are right. You can look at stuff like physics calculations or water turbulance and say a lot of very simple games that we enjoy today could not be emulated in any way shape or form on the Atari 2600, think something like angry birds.

But these are sort of special cases to my mind, once-in-a-generation leaps. The number of game ideas that ultimately derive their expression from highly computationally intensive stuff at this level of hardware ie Wii U vs PS4 must be few and far between. What you are left with are compromises, that to do the necessary computational grind, you don't have the overhead then to make it as pretty, as expansive. If you define the expression of the creators idea as having the basics + the polish, then you're going to say it is compromised. But to my mind, I don't buy that, because graphics are the least of a game to me.

As ever, having console owners argue over who gives greatest freedom to developer imagination is like two red haired kids arguing who is the better swimmer in the shallow end. Meanwhile, the PC treads water in the deep end, watching them with a bemused expression.

 

[BGBW]

I found that part sad actually.

Yep. I bet the time wasn't expert or comedic. One has to question if Kotaku has seen more than Big Bang Theory.

One also has to question whether he was actually laughing at the question itself. I mean it was from Kotaku,

 

[zoukka]

A very bad argument in a debate that is absolutely moot, potentially yielding nothing but another label to be overused for shitting on Nintendo.

A more relevant definition seems to be forming very fast. If Ninty can't secure the most commonly used middleware and engines on their platforms, they will truly be on a generation of their own.

 

[Game-Biz]

Wait I'm confused. Did Mark Rein laugh at the Wii U or some starving orphan children?

My undying passion and Mark's vicious hate speech has inspired me to express art through the written word of poetry:

"Wii U has feelings too," by Game-Biz, for humanity.

Laugh and taunt all you want
But Wii U has more than graphics it needs not flaunt
Nintendo knows the game too well
To fall for rhetoric and Mark Rein's spell
Look to the past to see Nintendo's fate
As history will repeat before it's too late
Mark the words Iwata has proclaimed
On bended knee you'll say wow and praise his name
Unreal Engine 4 may look somewhat nice
But with its diminished returns I say, "no dice"
Rein's hurtful words may not affect you
But even Wii U has feelings too

 

[wsippel]

A more relevant definition seems to be forming very fast. If Ninty can't secure the most commonly used middleware and engines on their platforms, they will truly be on a generation of their own.

The most commonly used engine these days happens to be Unity, so that strategic partnership was definitely a clever move.

 

[DigitalRicket]

This image summed up my entire experience with the Wii U. Yeah, I sold it within two months of owning it and lost money on that too. I'm sorry Nintendo, but the 3DS is your last saving grace. Go third-party dudes.

 

[7threst]

The most commonly used engine these days happens to be Unity, so that strategic partnership was definitely a clever move.

There is a partnership between Nintendo and Unity?

 

[BGBW]

A more relevant definition seems to be forming very fast. If Ninty can't secure the most commonly used middleware and engines on their platforms, they will truly be on a generation of their own.

It only makes sense if you think only console engines exist. With two handhelds in the mix that don't even sport the same power using power as a definer starts to fall apart. The 3DS doesn't support UE4, are you suddenly going to tell me it isn't part of this generation?

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games.

Wait, did he hire strippers for the afterparty or something?

It's not a stereotype, it's a fact.

And if I told you that Metal Gear Solid could run on a Super Nintendo, you'd probably burst out laughing too.

 

[Rehynn]

A more relevant definition seems to be forming very fast. If Ninty can't secure the most commonly used middleware and engines on their platforms, they will truly be on a generation of their own.

Yes, and this is a much more important issue than what label is to be used for the platform. I love all things Nintendo, and don't really care about high-end graphics, but I do care about having a broad selection of games.

 

[zoukka]

It only makes sense if you think only console engines exist. With two handhelds in the mix that don't even sport the same power using power as a definer starts to fall apart. The 3DS doesn't support UE4, are you suddenly going to tell me it isn't part of this generation?

Why would I compare home console gens with handheld gens again?

 

[Game-Biz]

Wait, did he hire strippers for the afterparty or something?

It's not a stereotype, it's a fact.

And if I told you that Metal Gear Solid could run on a Super Nintendo, you'd probably burst out laughing too.

I was joking believe me I'm very well aware of this fact.

I remember when gaf speculated that at the very least the Wii U could be get current gen ports that ran at 60 FPS and 1080p. Laughable now. But we believed it.... Hahaha

 

[BGBW]

Why would I compare home console gens with handheld gens again?

They are all part of the same gen?

And even if we were to make the handhelds their own entity they both differ in power but you wouldn't argue they are in different gens.

 

[Eteric Rice]

There is a partnership between Nintendo and Unity?

Yeah, apparently the Wii U actually ships with Unity.

It's an interesting development.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

I was joking believe me I'm very well aware of this fact.

I remember when gaf speculated that at the very least the Wii U could be get current gen ports that ran at 60 FPS and 1080p. Laughable now. But we believed it.... Hahaha

Oh man, now I'm the one laughing Ya got me!

 

[Haunted]

They are all part of the same gen?

And even if we were to make the handhelds their own entity they both differ in power but you wouldn't argue they are in different gens.

Why even waste your time arguing. As soon as PS4 and Durango are out and realities of the competition in the marketplace settle in (it's going to be WiiU vs PS4 vs Durango from 2013-2017+), this will be a moot discussion.

 

[Rajack]

This image summed up my entire experience with the Wii U. Yeah, I sold it within two months of owning it and lost money on that too. I'm sorry Nintendo, but the 3DS is your last saving grace. Go third-party dudes.

What is this shit DigitalRicket? Have you not played any of the games that just came out this month?

 

[7threst]

Yeah, apparently the Wii U actually ships with Unity.

It's an interesting development.

Ok, seems Nintendo already made a choice then. Pardon my ignorance, but is something like this normal? Did the Xbox 360 or PS3 got shipped with an engine for example?

 

[Violet_0]

Nintendocalypse Now

leave my Waiif-U alone (

 

[zoukka]

They are all part of the same gen?

And even if we were to make the handhelds their own entity they both differ in power but you wouldn't argue they are in different gens.

In the context of my first post, yes I would indeed argue that the 3DS and Vita are completely different in every way. Generation is a bit wrong term for thr situation, "islands" would be better :b

My whole point was to disregard power and all other instrumental differences and focus on the development ecosystem of the platforms (which seems to be derived from each other) to separate gens. Not to dismiss the more popular definitions, but for food for thought.

 

[DeviousAngel]

I'm finding this all ridiculous. Sometimes I think back and wonder at which point gaming became more about graphics and less about having fun...

 

[Daingurse]

I'm finding this all ridiculous. Sometimes I think back and wonder at which point gaming became more about graphics and less about having fun...

Seriously. Fun and great graphics are not mutually exclusive things.

 

[zoukka]

Seriously. Fun and great visuals are not mutually exclusive things.

Yes, but let's not act stupid either. A huge AAA production tends to always gravitate towards tried and true design that will not offend anyone. In plain language boring design.

 

[Daingurse]

Yes, but let's not act stupid either. A huge AAA production tends to always gravitate towards tried and true design that will not offend anyone. In plain language boring design.

Can't argue with that.

 

[jeffers]

But that's not technically true, he admitted the next day, walking back his gaffe. "You heard the stupid gaffe yesterday about the Wii U," he said. "If someone wants to take Unreal Engine 4 and ship a game on Wii U, they can! If they wanna ship an Unreal Engine 4 game on Xbox 360, they could make it happen." While that game might not look as pretty as it would on a "true" next-gen console, the new engine is scalable to a variety of platforms, including mobile.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/29/mark-rein-interview-gdc-2013/

adding just for the sake of clarity, assuming everyone already thought this was the outcome.

 

[ubersticky]

I let it fall, my Wii U
And as it fell, no one rose to claim it

 

[NotLiquid]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/29/mark-rein-interview-gdc-2013/

adding just for the sake of clarity, assuming everyone already thought this was the outcome.

Should be added to the topic title/post for clarification. Not that many devs will even use it.

 

[Toski]

Yes, but let's not act stupid either. A huge AAA production tends to always gravitate towards tried and true design that will not offend anyone. In plain language boring design.

I think next gen with an easier to work with super-platform encompassing the PS4/Durango/PC and greater digital distribution, the relevance and competitiveness of AA, A, B, etc. titles in the marketplace will put AAA games in their place, as once in a while treats.

 

[Taurus]

Yes, but let's not act stupid either. A huge AAA production tends to always gravitate towards tried and true design that will not offend anyone. In plain language boring design.

Press [E] to cut.

 

[tkscz]

Heeeey... I thought you said you were playing Scribblenauts Unlimited!


You forgot Knack.

Took a break. I'm trying to make the Nope I saw in a gif once, but can't seem to do it.

 

[hwy_61]

This really makes me wonder what would've happened if the Wii U was next gen, but still struggled to sell.

Or, if the Wii U was selling like the Wii. I wonder if UE4 would've skipped it.

Hypotetics aside, this is a real bummer.

 

[DeviousAngel]

Fun and great visuals are not mutually exclusive things.[/QUOTE]

They're not. Note that my definition of graphics here has more to do with console "power" than art direction. I'm perfectly fine with the way most Nintendo games play AND look, for example, but I think most people would agree Nintendo has left the power race. However, I'm personally still having more fun with what's being produced by the indie devs and by Nintendo at the moment. With most western development, I see incredible visuals (though not all games accomplish this through great art direction), I see high production values... But when I pick up a new assassins creed or uncharted I feel like I've played them before. Where is the creativity, the gameplay and the fun?

I might be getting off on a tangent here, and I think I may end up stirring the pot, but I can't help but notice that when it comes to the big western devs, priorities nowadays tend to lie with "power." This whole concept of AAA is starting to snuff the creativity out of video games since developers are forced to play it safe in order to recoup the money spent on making them. They advertise what is familiar to us gamers right now, what we can easily perceive when a demo is dangled in front of our noses. We can all spot these differences in power easily and naturally we associate it with change and evolution. But do devs expect us to believe that evolution in gameplay will follow suit? Will things really change? Meanwhile you get Nintendo in the other corner trying to advertise abstract concepts like asymmetric gameplay and miiverse, and people just don't care. That cannot see the potential ramifications right away because games look no different. Indie developers are denied the chance to grow and expand because there's no room for the middle man. There are no resources to compete with those at the top and so they remain in the indie scene, where they'll be overlooked by a large proportion of gamers. Some wonderful games are also being dismissed as "cheap" because they weren't created with multimillion dollar budgets.

Anyways, that's enough ranting. This is only my opinion, of course.

 

[Brinbe]

wrap it up, ninty. shit's over

 

[Dave Meltzer]

When Nintendo were doing things like analog sticks, touch screens and motion control, the whole "Nintendo is brave and innovative!" argument held some weight. Nothing about the 3DS or Wii U is anywhere near as imaginative.

Asymmetric gameplay is not new, nor something most people will ever care about, as its practical uses are limited almost exclusively to local multiplayer. Past that, it's just a DS with the top screen on your tv.

 

[popeutlal]

Should be added to the topic title/post for clarification. Not that many devs will even use it.

Yes, 'UE4 to look less pretty on 360' should be added to the title.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

A very bad argument in a debate that is absolutely moot, potentially yielding nothing but another label to be overused for shitting on Nintendo.

Except when developers and publishers talk about their next generation plans, if they do not consider it next gen, the Wii U is going to be left behind.

When Nintendo were doing things like analog sticks, touch screens and motion control, the whole "Nintendo is brave and innovative!" argument held some weight. Nothing about the 3DS or Wii U is anywhere near as imaginative.

Asymmetric gameplay is not new, nor something most people will ever care about, as its practical uses are limited almost exclusively to local multiplayer. Past that, it's just a DS with the top screen on your tv.

Haha I've been saying this for awhile. Agreed. This console really isn't exactly anything new.

And Asymmetric gameplay just sounds like a limitation and convenience since there can't be 4 gamepads.

 

[StuBurns]

Should be added to the topic title/post for clarification. Not that many devs will even use it.

No devs will do it. Like no devs put UE3 on Wii, even though he said that was also totally possible and up to them.

The platform is not supported by the engine, no one is going to use it.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

It just ain't cool to like or support Wii U if you're a western game developer, huh?

I dislike this sentiment. It's not solely this. The console doesn't cater to western developers, therefore why should they bother? Nintendo released a console in 2012 which has visuals not that far beyond a 2005 system.

 

[Steve McQueen]

wrap it up, ninty. shit's over

That's what I thought when the PSP, 360, PS3 and Vita released. Boy was I wrong. There's nothing over yet.

 

[ahm998]

I think nintendo made engine for 3rd party

That's why nintendo refuse to get any other engines.

 

[Violet_0]

seems like it's time for a true console Pokemon RPG to salvage what they can from the Wii U. This could likely be the last console generation anyway

 

[RooMHM]

Rein and the whole Epic are assholes. Thats the only info or confirmation in this thread.

 

[crazy monkey]

I'm finding this all ridiculous. Sometimes I think back and wonder at which point gaming became more about graphics and less about having fun...

I keep saying this all the time.. Budget are already crazy yet people are not satisfied. It is sad.

 

[StuBurns]

I wonder why it's always Nintendo threads that have posts written as if 'fun' is the antithesis of graphics. Usually it's gameplay, but whichever really. There is nothing inherent in making lower performance hardware that results in more fun software, or better gameplay. It just means you can never exceed your limited visual potential. What is done with that performance is totally unrelated. I don't think the Gears of War series are good games really, but I think Mass Effect 2 and BioShock Infinite were. That technology spawned things I think highly of.

The argument that Nintendo making lower spec systems is advantageous is pretty laughable. They've put themselves in a position where this console is going to very literally be the Nintendo player. Being cheaper hasn't done a single positive thing, it hasn't sold more units, it hasn't made a lower barrier of entry for third parties, the gamepad hasn't spawned a huge scene of iPad/uPad multi-SKU games. It's done nothing, other than solidify Nintendo's place as being completely ignored by Western third parties.

I also love the irony of having a Jurassic Park avatar, a film which used technology to it's very height to create an experience people found incredibly fun.

 

[NotLiquid]

Yes, 'UE4 to look less pretty on 360' should be added to the title.

Straw man's attempt at being witty. I don't believe Wii U will ever see a game with UE4 but it's the complete untainted info all the same.

 

[StuBurns]

Straw man's attempt at being witty. I don't believe Wii U will ever see a game with UE4 but it's the complete untainted info all the same.

Firstly, it's not news, he's said it before, secondly, it being possible on 360 is news.

 

[Effect]

I think people are really losing their heads over this when there really is no need. Just how many companies really will be using UE4? Honestly. Hasn't Epic gone on record of saying it's really more ideal for specific type of games, more closed quarters type of games. Where if you want to do something larger in scope UE3 would actually be better. That's what I recall when UE4 was announced. They actually no reason to replace UE3 as well if it's as wide spread as they claim it is. Also what happen to all the issues people had with UE3 over the past few years? What makes people think that UE4 won't have it's own issues you'll then complain about in the years to come? They should remember that before they start taking joy in this nonsense.

The reason I'm not to concerned is many studios and publishers have moved on to their own internal engines. Some even have several. Ubisoft and Activision for example. That they've put games on the Wii U already and in Ubisoft's case has more games coming shows they have Wii U versions of their engines already done. The same goes for Capcom with MT Framework and so many others. As said many will be using UE3 for years to come. Unless they find something different and cheaper.

That brings us to Unity. More and more smaller developers are using it. The Wii U devkit gives all developers (big, indie, and everything in between) free access to the latest version of the engine along with other middleware they also have free access to as well. The importance this should not be dismissed at all.

I have more of an issue with how Rein acted but then again I've never had a high or positive opinion of Epic's mouth pieces.

 

[daycru]

My undying passion and Mark's vicious hate speech has inspired me to express art through the written word of poetry:

"Wii U has feelings too," by Game-Biz, for humanity.

Laugh and taunt all you want
But Wii U has more than graphics it needs not flaunt
Nintendo knows the game too well
To fall for rhetoric and Mark Rein's spell
Look to the past to see Nintendo's fate
As history will repeat before it's too late
Mark the words Iwata has proclaimed
On bended knee you'll say wow and praise his name
Unreal Engine 4 may look somewhat nice
But with its diminished returns I say, "no dice"
Rein's hurtful words may not affect you
But even Wii U has feelings too

Would bring a tear to a glass eye.


"The room erupted with laughter" is my new favorite gaming quote.

 

[DSN2K]

if anyone really thinks visuals don't play a substantial part of what makes a Game they are delusional.

Visuals/Sound/Gameplay are what make top games, Nintendo have in part held back dev's with the WiiU specs regarding visuals and sound. So yeah Dev's will shy way from the platform and they are right to really.

 

[Crimmy]

I think it's way to early to declare it dead, seeing as they turned around the 3ds, but unless Sony or Ms makes a massive mistake, I don't see it being anything else then a gamecube in terms of sales.

Having epic literally laugh at our console is not a good thing, given how many games will use UE4.

I think nintendo literally bet the farm that the tablet novelty would propel them to wii like sales, and were not prepared for the public to give it a giant 'meh'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Gamecube end up being more profitable than the Xbox and PS2 despite being in last palce in overall sales? I have been falling behind on the video game tip but trying to "get back in" so please forgive me.