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[Ruzbeh]

Cutting edge hasn't paid off with the PSP.

The handheld market is different altogether. The logic you can use with the handheld market needeth not necessarily apply to the console market.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Show me one screenshot of me being a lame poster. I fucking dare you.

we don't need screenshots, your posting history will do.

Yeah, like all those 60mpps PS2 games.

Backup that statement. I want to see this game with 60mmps on PS2

 

[akascream]

Backup that statement. I want to see this game with 60mmps on PS2

There's nothing to back up. Sony was full of shit, and the PS2 was nowhere near that capable a machine. Hence the scepticism perhaps?

 

[Chiggs]

You are on Sony whore crack dude. Seriously. That Killzone video was so damn out of range of the console, it's not even funny. Every curve was perfect, every circle was perfectly circular, way too smooth and too many individual and unique animations for every character, way too much textures for 512MB, way too good and high resed video output, too perfect motion blur everywhere, no signs of realtime filtering and other artifacts to be found anywhere, etc...

The only way to buy that video as the real deal is if you been smoking that Sony whore crack for years.

Well, this what I wanted to say in my earlier post, but for the sake of courtesy and respect...

But, yeah, I pretty much agree with what you wrote here.

 

[gofreak]

There's nothing to back up. Sony was full of shit, and the PS2 was nowhere near that capable a machine. Hence the scepticism perhaps?

Sony claimed 60m pps raw for GS.

At the same time they claimed 16m pps with a number of effects turned on.

Saying this is like wondering where the 300m poly Xbox games are (or whatever the peak they ended up with after GPU cuts).

Sorry you lack comprehension and/or had your PS2 info filtered to you through ignorant media.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

There's nothing to back up. Sony was full of shit, and the PS2 was nowhere near that capable a machine. Hence the scepticism perhaps?

ahahaa.

Sony showed tech demos and today many PS2 games have exceeded or matched those demos. This topic has been discussed over and over again many times and duckroll even made a thread about it.

All three companies made stuff up! The raven demo by MS, the tree's and metroid cg by nin10do and the getaway/GT AA'ed shots by Sony. There is no reason to only pick on Sony. All three companies lied to some extent last gen.

about the polys stuff:
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/072/072914p1.html

# Without lighting effects, 55 million polygons per second.
# With lighting effects, 32 million polygons per second.
# With lighting and fog effects, 30 million polygons per second.
# With Bezier surfacing, 13 million polygons per second.

 

[Deg]

You are on Sony whore crack dude. Seriously. That Killzone video was so damn out of range of the console, it's not even funny. Every curve was perfect, every circle was perfectly circular, way too smooth and too many individual and unique animations for every character, way too much textures for 512MB, way too good and high resed video output, too perfect motion blur everywhere, no signs of realtime filtering and other artifacts to be found anywhere, etc...

The only way to buy that video as the real deal is if you been smoking that Sony whore crack for years.

Not really. Many of the models faces looked flat unless they were singled out. Textures werent that great. Scenery was weak. I think it was the atmosphere that caught attention and how it was all hectic/exciting. But you know what? Battlefield 2 does all that already in a more hectic and busy way than the trailer on a much larger scale. Other demos were better. The Tekken demo was lovely for example and had afew similar effects on the clothes. I dont see how most of it cant be possible straight off.

Fileshack had a 90MB version of the movie. I downloaded that.

Seriously. That Killzone video was so damn out of range of the console

Yeah but what have you seen that is in the range of the console then? Abit of hypocrisy there.

 

[Yusaku]

I really wish they went with the black one instead of the silver one. Would it really be that hard for them to make the PS3 in 2 or more colors and let each consumer decide?

My black PSP says "yes".

 

[PhatSaqs]

GAF is once again becoming regurgitated argument heaven. Time for a hiatus...

 

[Shogmaster]

Not really. Many of the models faces looked flat unless they were singled out. Textures werent that great. Scenery was weak. I think it was the atmosphere that caught attention and how it was all hectic/exciting. But you know what? Battlefield 2 does all that already in a more hectic and busy way than the trailer on a much larger scale. Other demos were better. The Tekken demo was lovely for example and had afew similar effects on the clothes. I dont see how most of it cant be possible straight off.

Fileshack had a 90MB version of the movie. I downloaded that.

I think someone needs an intervention.... I'll look up Sony whore crack Anonymous...

Seriosuly, that's a lot of letters typed justifying heinous leaps in logic.

Yeah but what have you seen that is in the range of the console then? Abit of hypocrisy there.

The FF7 tech demo was perfectly believable.

 

[Chiggs]

I was just looking at Microsoft's Raven demo, and to me, it doesn't seem that impressive. In fact, I'd go as far as saying games like Conkers, Doom III, DOA3/U and Chronicles of Riddick are right up there with it - if not more impressive in some regards.

The only thing you can really nail them on is that the Raven demo features flawless FSAA which the aformentioned Xbox games really don't have.

 

[Deg]

The FF7 tech demo was perfectly believable.

And Square said they could do much more than that!

The Xbox 360 games should also surpass many of these demos i reckon. Its not like we are really seeing much Xbox 360 but more like upgraded Xbox games for now.

 

[seismologist]

I really hope the HD comes bundled with Linux so I can run a proper web browser from the PS3.

 

[Shogmaster]

And Square said they could do much more than that.

I'm sure they could, but it's quite convinient for you that "much more" is quite nebulous. "Much more" than FF7 demo < Killzone video.

 

[Kobold]

Not really. Many of the models faces looked flat unless they were singled out. Textures werent that great. Scenery was weak. I think it was the atmosphere that caught attention and how it was all hectic/exciting. But you know what? Battlefield 2 does all that already in a more hectic and busy way than the trailer on a much larger scale. Other demos were better.

I don't really care about which is powerfull as long as one isn't much more so then the other, but HAHAHAHAH

That's me not agreeing with you. Comparing Battlefield 2 to the Killzone demo....pff

Scenery was weak..... :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Deg]

I'm sure they could, but it's quite convinient for you that "much more" is quite nebulous. "Much more" than FF7 demo < Killzone video.

Much more should be alot better since FF demo was already larger scale and had much high quality scenery unlike Killzone. The characters were also more varied with more colour variety. I'm not expecting Advent children of course but it will look great nevertheless. FF demo's issue was that it was very simple much like FF8 demo for PS2. MGS2 destroyed every PS2 demo.

Scenery was weak..... :lol :lol :lol :lol

Haha. I thought Gears Of War had better scenery. Look closely. Killzone scenery wasnt that complex and it even looked like they didnt render anything in the distance. Gears of War has elaborate damaged scenery and design to it.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I was just looking at Microsoft's Raven demo, and to me, it doesn't seem that impressive. In fact, I'd go as far as saying games like Conkers, Doom III, DOA3/U and Chronicles of Riddick are right up there with it - if not more impressive in some regards.

Watch the movie of it

http://xboxmovies.ign.com/media/news/video/gdc2000/xboxdance.mov

That's quite a bit ahead of those games.

 

[Shogmaster]

I don't really care about which is powerfull as long as one isn't much more so then the other, but HAHAHAHAH

That's me not agreeing with you. Comparing Battlefield 2 to the Killzone demo....pff

Scenery was weak..... :lol :lol :lol :lol

No kidding huh? I mean look at these stills (which was down rezed from 1080p of the footage):

Some people really will believe anything that their favorate corporate pimps will tell them. :lol

 

[Deku]

The handheld market is different altogether. The logic you can use with the handheld market needeth not necessarily apply to the console market.

Well implementation is more important. N64 was a technically more advanced machine than the PS1 as well.

Cartridge format aside, the N64 was difficult to program for and took a lot of work to get good stuff out of it, and that hurt the console in many different ways, from developer apathy to just crappy looking games.

The point is, having the best technology means very little if its implemented poorly, and Sony seems to be losing it when it comes to this. They're more concerned about cramming in features over ultility. This mindset has also shown up in how they handled their PDA business, cramming in tons of 'cool' gadget features but not taking care of what users need or want. They handily lost that market to other US and other Asian manufacturers.

 

[Kobold]

Put some Battlefield 2 shots in for good comparative measure!

I don't think this quality will be reached by any console this gen. Let alone at 1080p :lol

EDIT: If it does, I will have to save up for a PS3.

MORE EDIT: That guy in the first pics finger is nicer looking then a scene out of Gears of War. Oh, and yeah, the scenery sucks! I am alergic to detail and the incredible realims and polygon counts even a Final Fantasy cutscene can't match, so it must suck. (artstically, is of course pretty moot..)

 

[Elios83]

No kidding huh? I mean look at these stills (which was down rezed from 1080p of the footage):

Some people really will believe anything that their favorate corporate pimps will tell them. :lol

I have the feeling that when Kojima shows MGS4 at E3 2006 it will be E3 2001 again
With all the damage control that will follow from haters and fanboys in denial :lol :lol just like Sega fanboys were swearing all the MGS2 footage was CG at that time.
KIllzone is far from impossibile for a machine with the PS3 specs.

 

[Deg]

Gears of War looks better in some ways. Look at the scenery.

Not that much difference

Killzone is doable.

 

[Kobold]

The art may be better, but i'm definatly (for sure after I saw it running behind closed doors at E3) not very impressed with it yet. Sure it's nice and all, but inconsistant lighting effects and bad particle (fire) effects, and of course the framerate didn't do it for me yet. Mainly the inconsistent lighting effects made it look ugly in some parts even.

Oh, not to mention that the gun used in the E3 BHCD meeting had like 4 polygons. The game running at E3 was NOT as good looking as any of these screenshots.

Of course it was very much work in progress and I can't wait to see it on true beta kits, but untill then I don't know what to expect of it. But trust me after seeing the 30 minute demo, it does not compare in the slightest to the Killzone 2 video.

EDIT: texture bump map etc. resolution on the main character was also "too" low. All the shots are 100% from the PC version they showed on the Nvidia dual SLI a booth away for few minutes GDC demo style.

 

[Shogmaster]

Gears of War looks better in some ways. Look at the scenery.


Not that much difference

Not much difference in overall effect, but look at the detailed clues fool! I see polygon edges all over GoW shots! And not one perfect circle that's not part of a normal map! In KZ shots, there are perfect circle geometry everywhere! Look at the arches in KZ and then in GoW! Same with gun barrels and stuff.

I think you just lack enough hardware software savvy to make any decent judgement calls. People like you should be required to pass tests before you ramble on about graphics capabilities of next gen consoles.

 

[seismologist]

Gears of War looks better in some ways. Look at the scenery.

Not that much difference

Killzone is doable.

definitely doable. Also remember that gears is running on an engine designed to scale down to low end PCs.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

Some people really will believe anything that their favorate corporate pimps will tell them. :lol

hah, and you're the shining bastion of impartiality and clear-headed judgement.

 

[Deg]

The art may be better, but i'm definatly (for sure after I saw it running behind closed doors at E3) not very impressed with it yet. Sure it's nice and all, but inconsistant lighting effects and bad particle (fire) effects, and of course the framerate didn't do it for me yet. Mainly the inconsistent lighting effects made it look ugly in some parts even.

Oh, not to mention that the gun used in the E3 BHCD meeting had like 4 polygons. The game running at E3 was NOT as good looking as any of these screenshots.

Of course it was very much work in progress and I can't wait to see it on true beta kits, but untill then I don't know what to expect of it. But trust me after seeing the 30 minute demo, it does not compare in the slightest to the Killzone 2 video.

I am sure it was toned down as it was runninng on a pc and slowly as it was. :lol But next gen consoles will top anything coming to the pc in at least the early part of their lifetime.

Not much difference in oevrall effect, but look at the detailed clues fool! I see polygon edges all over GoW shots! And not one perfect circle that's not part of a normal map! In KZ shots, there are perfect circle geometry everywhere!

I think you just lack enough hardware software savvy to make any decent judgement calls. People like you should be required to pass tests before you ramble on about graphics capabilities of next gen consoles.

Gears of War is also a pc game its not going to look anywhere near as good as a top next gen console game. Look at Max Payne! That was cutting edge for pc but nothing for consoles at the time(MGS2). Despite the ports being poor.

I am not going to argue further. We've had this before with PS2. I'd say chances are we'll see some damn good looking games from some softcos and the whole diminshing returns thing is a load of rubbish.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

My thing about this is. If this were capable, I'd be expecting the Epic team or the iD teams to pull of what they showed about Killzone. I don't know if you remember what the big deal was when Unreal 1 first came out, but I do, Superlative graphics. Now, if what Unreal Tournament is what Epic did with the PS3, I can believe it, sorry to knock the console developers, but they aren't going to supercede what was shown for UT at this present time. Especially not in the manner that Killzone was to UT2007. You just have to call bullshit.

 

[Chittagong]

... cue Silent Hill 3 pic in 3 ... 2...

 

[Shogmaster]

definitely doable. Also remember that gears is running on an engine designed to scale down to low end PCs.

Listen kids. It's "doable" as in the Getaway renders were "doable". They did do something like the renders in the final product, but it was no where near the level of polish.

That Killzone video is a pre-rendered horseshit, just like the pre-rendered shots of the Getaway, brought to us by the same fucking bullshitters (SCEE).

 

[chinch]

I never said you did. I've seen a couple people start mentioning Getaway recently. It just seems like people are desperate to catch Sony in a lie about what their systems can do.

LOL. Even the most ambitious sony hater isn't desperate about these matters. The exaggerations of the truth are plentiful.

 

[DarienA]

Goddamn people this is a dumb as fuckin dirt argument to be having.... AGAIN....

 

[Chittagong]

Goddamn people this is a dumb as fuckin dirt argument to be having.... AGAIN....

:lol so true. Somebody should write a summary of the flow of this argument so that it could be conveniently posted.

 

[Zaptruder]

Listen kids. It's "doable" as in the Getaway renders were "doable". They did do something like the renders in the final product, but it was no where near the level of polish.

That Killzone video is a pre-rendered horseshit, just like the pre-rendered shots of the Getaway, brought to us by the same fucking bullshitters (SCEE).

Dude, if all you're relying on are perfect circles as the crux of your argument...

you're gonna look pretty stupid when the overall quality is maintained with the LOD on the cylinders and spheres are dropped a step.

 

[Kobold]

I am sure it was toned down as it was runninng on a pc and slowly as it was. :lol But next gen consoles will top anything coming to the pc in at least the early part of their lifetime.

Gears of War is also a pc game its not going to look anywhere near as good as a top next gen console game. Look at Max Payne! That was cutting edge for pc but nothing for consoles at the time. Despite the ports being poor.

I am not going to argue further. We've had this before with PS2. I'd say chances are we'll see some damn good looking games from some softcos and the whole diminshing returns thing is a load of rubbish.

Please, I've asked the Epic dudes present why it was running so slow. They said it was running on a PC not a alpha kit, that was more similar to the final Xbox 360 hardware.

Now around the corner some part of the game was shown during the GDC runthrough at the Nvidia booth, running fluently on a dual SLI nvidia PC rig. There has to be some mix up right? I'd say. I asked three times if the setup they used was more similar to the final Xbox 360 hardware, three times they assured me it was.

I still don't believe them at all (how can a sli current gen nvidia rig pc be twice as fast as a next gen 3 power pc core ati card-bearing next-gen console, eh?). But, fact is, that presentation was strange, because of that.

Thing is, we don't and won't know what gears of war will be like in the end, because we are systematically getting mixed impressions of it's quality. (me, at least). The Killzone demo, obviously a tricked up overconfident 'estimate' render, therefore is not comaparable in detail, geometry and everything else.

Show me the Gears of War scene where you see 1 square kilometer city detailed cityscape with 2 times a 100.000+ poly flyingvehicles with 20 times 20.000+ poly characters and a 20.000 poly gun on screen?

Or the scene with the massive explosion effects and again 20 guys and again 2 or 3 massively high detail vehicles and much more guns and background in view?

Not comparable.

Really, by the love of god, as a gamer I wish Killzone was a game looking like that lying on my desk right now. But now I know what Gears of War looks like at the moment, can imagine how it looks like in the end (massively improved over the E3 showing obviously), with all optimism. I can't seeing it reach 1/100st of the level of detail of the Killzone demo.

That's from someone who loves his Xbox and the graphical superiority over other platforms and has some knowledge and an eye for details.

Again i'm talking purely technicaL, NOT ARTWISE. It might well look betterish in the art department, but it won't be technically superior and will have to make that up in departments like incredibly nice.....only art-style basically since you can't put polygons more then you have, which would be directly technical. It would be like Ico meets Brute Force. Brute Force is great technically I guess, but artwise it's MEH. Ico is great artwise but technically MEH. Which would you say looked 'better'?

Just to illustrate, we are talking technical, not art.

 

[seismologist]

Goddamn people this is a dumb as fuckin dirt argument to be having.... AGAIN....

We're going to keep hearing this argument up until the day the first PS3 games are released. It's like PS2 vs. Dreamcast all over again.

 

[Shogmaster]

Dude, if all you're relying on are perfect circles as the crux of your argument...

you're gonna look pretty stupid when the overall quality is maintained with the LOD on the cylinders and spheres are dropped a step.

Get the hell outta town!

You really think all those individual, unique and detailed animation routines for each character and all those high res textures are gonna survive on a console with only 512MB of RAM while showing such a huge battle arena with so many varied NPCs and vehicles as was in the video?

DO YOU EVEN THINK ANY SCENE LIKE THE VIDEO WILL BE EVEN IN THE ACTUAL GAME LETALONE THE ACTUAL GAME ENDING UP RESEMBLING THIS VIDEO?!?!

You are looking foolish now, you silly Doraemon pirate!

 

[sangreal]

Kutaragi commented that the PS3's detachable hard drive would most likely be 80GB, since that's the standard capacity of a general 2.5-inch hard drive

Thats a load of crap (or a poor translation). 80gb 2.5" drivers are available, but they're far from what I'd consider standard. Regardless, this statement would seem to indicate that you have to rely on Sony to release a drive, rather than the speculation that you can use any drive.

 

[DCharlie]

the difference between Killzone and Gears of war is in the way everything moved and interacted.

Gears of War when it moves still looks like a game, I8 looks like a game, loads of other games look like a game. Killzone looked too perfect in that sense.

Yes a game will look as good as Killzone - will it "move" as good as killzone in game? Will the AI be as good? Well, if it's scripted up the wazzo , it's certainly possible to create the illusion. We shall see i guess.

p.s. Why is Kutaragi talking about using 6 spe chips in a home server? I guess they could well use the "bad" chips from PS3 yields for that purpose. Also, devils hat on here, i wonder if the PS3 will dedicate an entire SPE to running the OS? Meaning that in reality you are using 6 SPE's not 7.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I maintain that this is the only commentary necessary on the Killzone vid:

When we seen game we can play the discussion will be more meaningful since we'll have something to compare to.

 

[Amir0x]

:lol so true. Somebody should write a summary of the flow of this argument so that it could be conveniently posted.

GAF Argument "Meeting Tech Demo Expectations" 3.0 Summary


I. Entry Accusation - "What are your expectations for next-gen, anyway!?"

---A. "Gears of War is certainly what I expect from next-gen, for baseline."
-------1. Alternate answer: Ghost Recon 3
-------2. Alternate answer: Final Fantasy VII Tech demo
---B. "I expect a jump that at least justifies 300 dollars."
-------1. Point out how no jump will ever be as big as the PSX to PS2, or SNES to PSX.
-------2. Explain how expectations need to be reeled back.

II. Escalation Expectation - "I think Killzone is what I expect from next-gen."

---A. "That's bullshit. No game next-gen will ever reach that level."
-------1. Point out motion blur.
-------2. Point out perfect curves.
----------a. In case of Gears of War pic rebuttal, point out edges.
----------b. In case of Gears of War pic rebuttal, call person an idiot.
-------3. Point out advanced, multilayered AI routines.
---B. "It's just standard SCEE propaganda. They're liars!"
-------1. Use Getaway as example.
-------2. Use Killzone again as example.
---C. "Really, plenty of people have already established it's not real-time."
-------1. Use sources from various G4 interviews.
-------2. Use sources from IGN/Gamespot.

III. Memories of the Past - "It's no surprise. PS2 tech demos were all bullshit as well."

---A. "What? How many times do we have to go through this argument!?"
-------1. Explain how shocked and awed you are if possible.
-------2. Use hyperbole to highlight how stupid you feel this is.
-------3. Use the :lol :lol emoticon countless times.
---B. "Unbelievable. Have you seen the PS2 tech demos? Been surpassed!"
-------1. Use Silent Hill 3 "old man" pic.
-------2. Compare GT2000 to GT4.
----------a. Point out PSX era bitmaps
----------b. Hideous aliasing
-------3. Compare FFBallroom to FFX.
---C. "Yeah, the Raven Xbox demo wasn't surpassed! But Microsoft gets no shit for that!"

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yes a game will look as good as Killzone - will it "move" as good as killzone in game? Will the AI be as good? Well, if it's scripted up the wazzo , it's certainly possible to create the illusion. We shall see i guess.

Wasn't one of the main complaints about KZ1 that it was too scripted?

 

[Zaptruder]

Get the hell outta town!

You really think all those individual, unique and detailed animation routines for each character and all those high res textures are gonna survive on a console with only 512MB of RAM while showing such a huge battle arena with so many varied NPCs and vehicles as was in the video?

DO YOU EVEN THINK ANY SCENE LIKE THE VIDEO WILL BE EVEN IN THE ACTUAL GAME LETALONE THE ACTUAL GAME ENDING UP RESEMBLING THIS VIDEO?!?!

You are looking foolish now, you silly Doraemon pirate!

I hope you and this particular iteration of the board will stick around long enough for you to eat crow when the stuff is finally released...

Although I'm not confident enough to say that's exactly what PS3 games will look like when they come out, I think it's more than a tad over dramatic to be crying about how that stuff doesn't at all in any way chance whatsoever resemble anything that we can at all expect on the PS3, as you seem to be doing right now.

A little optimistic caution on this side; if history is anything to go by... these 'tech demos' are a fair representation of the quality of graphics we can expect during none gameplay and gameplay moments.

You cry about the number of animations... but while they are certainly nicely animated in the cutscene, I don't see any reason to see why those animations wouldn't be in the final game (apart from improvements and whatnot)... maybe you're overreaching and extrapolating by thinking the quality and natural look of the assembled animations (for the trailer) will affect every animation in every possible situation that they'll have?

 

[Chittagong]

GAF Argument "Meeting Tech Demo Expectations" 3.0 Summary

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Awesome. Should be stickied as a new thread. Along with the pics in question. So much more convenient.

 

[DarienA]

GAF Argument "Meeting Tech Demo Expectations" 3.0 Summary


I. Entry Accusation - "What are your expectations for next-gen, anyway!?"

---A. "Gears of War is certainly what I expect from next-gen, for baseline."
-------1. Alternate answer: Ghost Recon 3
-------2. Alternate answer: Final Fantasy VII Tech demo
---B. "I expect a jump that at least justifies 300 dollars."
-------1. Point out how no jump will ever be as big as the PSX to PS2, or SNES to PSX.
-------2. Explain how expectations need to be reeled back.

II. Escalation Expectation - "I think Killzone is what I expect from next-gen."

---A. "That's bullshit. No game next-gen will ever reach that level."
-------1. Point out motion blur.
-------2. Point out perfect curves.
----------a. In case of Gears of War pic rebuttal, point out edges.
----------b. In case of Gears of War pic rebuttal, call person an idiot.
-------3. Point out advanced, multilayered AI routines.
---B. "It's just standard SCEE propaganda. They're liars!"
-------1. Use Getaway as example.
-------2. Use Killzone again as example.
---C. "Really, plenty of people have already established it's not real-time."
-------1. Use sources from various G4 interviews.
-------2. Use sources from IGN/Gamespot.

III. Memories of the Past - "It's no surprise. PS2 tech demos were all bullshit as well."

---A. "What? How many times do we have to go through this argument!?"
-------1. Explain how shocked and awed you are if possible.
-------2. Use hyperbole to highlight how stupid you feel this is.
-------3. Use the :lol :lol emoticon countless times.
---B. "Unbelievable. Have you seen the PS2 tech demos? Been surpassed!"
-------1. Use Silent Hill 3 "old man" pic.
-------2. Compare GT2000 to GT4.
----------a. Point out PSX era bitmaps
----------b. Hideous aliasing
-------3. Compare FFBallroom to FFX.
---C. "Yeah, the Raven Xbox demo wasn't surpassed! But Microsoft gets no shit for that!"

This MUST be saved! :lol :lol

 

[Shogmaster]

I hope you and this particular iteration of the board will stick around long enough for you to eat crow when the stuff is finally released...

Zap, I been at GAF far longer than you. And I will stick around for long as the board will exist. Don't worry about me sticking around.

Although I'm not confident enough to say that's exactly what PS3 games will look like when they come out, I think it's more than a tad over dramatic to be crying about how that stuff doesn't at all in any way chance whatsoever resemble anything that we can at all expect on the PS3, as you seem to be doing right now.

A little optimistic caution on this side; if history is anything to go by... these 'tech demos' are a fair representation of the quality of graphics we can expect during none gameplay and gameplay moments.

You cry about the number of animations... but while they are certainly nicely animated in the cutscene, I don't see any reason to see why those animations wouldn't be in the final game (apart from improvements and whatnot)... maybe you're overreaching and extrapolating by thinking the quality and natural look of the assembled animations (for the trailer) will affect every animation in every possible situation that they'll have?

There's being cauciously optimistic and there's believing that this BS is indicitive of the final product. That's a big chasm.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Not much difference in overall effect, but look at the detailed clues fool! I see polygon edges all over GoW shots! And not one perfect circle that's not part of a normal map! In KZ shots, there are perfect circle geometry everywhere! Look at the arches in KZ and then in GoW! Same with gun barrels and stuff.

I think you just lack enough hardware software savvy to make any decent judgement calls. People like you should be required to pass tests before you ramble on about graphics capabilities of next gen consoles.

Your logic is flawed. It breaks down to, "I don't think it's possible, yet haven't the hard numbers to support it." The whole deal over KZ stems from what people expect from this gen. That's from the pro and con side. Remember prior to the PS2 launching, people said it was never gonna match those demos. Hell, lots of people still don't believe it blew them away in the first year. The same with the Xbox, and the first demos for that. People were right about the Raven demo, but it doesn't make the assumptions any less ignorant.

For one, I don't see how you assume there's too much geometry. Cell adds way more vertex power than you'll find on XeCPU or Xenos. That's if you want to assume there's too much geometry. I personally think that scenes close to 10M polygons should be reasonable this gen. If we can get smooth and round models in cutscenes, then we should be able to get those in-game this gen. Second, current 360 models are using relatively simple polygon models with normal-maps. That's certainly not indicative of what 2nd gen and later titles will look like. I don't expect PS3 games to be saddled with 5-10K polygon models all normal-mapped up when the system has the horsepower to put 10x that many in each model.

Adding to that, lighting makes a huge difference. We saw it in the Molina demo, and the Luna one. When you got great per-pixel lighting and HDR to better simulate realistic lighting conditions, plus other effects like SSS, then you're gonna get results like that. The level of interaction and chaos isn't anything outside BF2 or CoD2 either.

Will games ever match KZ2? I don't know for sure. But it seems that not even J. Allard is willing to call it impossible. Even he weaseled out and said it could possibly be done in 5 years. That was an easy question to knock out the park, and even he passed it up. Seeing Heavenly Sword and what it does with not just lighting and animation, but also with polygon counts and effects (gobs of particles), I am pretty confident that it'll at least be close. HS is a first-gen game from a relatively small studio. I expect a project with the funding of KZ2, and a proven graphics expert team like Guerilla should be able to do better. PEACE.

 

[Shogmaster]

Your logic is flawed. It breaks down to, "I don't think it's possible, yet haven't the hard numbers to support it." The whole deal over KZ stems from what people expect from this gen. That's from the pro and con side. Remember prior to the PS2 launching, people said it was never gonna match those demos. Hell, lots of people still don't believe it blew them away in the first year. The same with the Xbox, and the first demos for that. People were right about the Raven demo, but it doesn't make the assumptions any less ignorant.

For one, I don't see how you assume there's too much geometry. Cell adds way more vertex power than you'll find on XeCPU or Xenos. That's if you want to assume there's too much geometry. I personally think that scenes close to 10M polygons should be reasonable this gen. If we can get smooth and round models in cutscenes, then we should be able to get those in-game this gen. Second, current 360 models are using relatively simple polygon models with normal-maps. That's certainly not indicative of what 2nd gen and later titles will look like. I don't expect PS3 games to be saddled with 5-10K polygon models all normal-mapped up when the system has the horsepower to put 10x that many in each model.

Adding to that, lighting makes a huge difference. We saw it in the Molina demo, and the Luna one. When you got great per-pixel lighting and HDR to better simulate realistic lighting conditions, plus other effects like SSS, then you're gonna get results like that. The level of interaction and chaos isn't anything outside BF2 or CoD2 either.

Will games ever match KZ2? I don't know for sure. But it seems that not even J. Allard is willing to call it impossible. Even he weaseled out and said it could possibly be done in 5 years. That was an easy question to knock out the park, and even he passed it up. Seeing Heavenly Sword and what it does with not just lighting and animation, but also with polygon counts and effects (gobs of particles), I am pretty confident that it'll at least be close. HS is a first-gen game from a relatively small studio. I expect a project with the funding of KZ2, and a proven graphics expert team like Guerilla should be able to do better. PEACE.

Come on Duane. I can sum up your posts with the same dismissive "I think it's possible, yet haven't the hard numbers to support it." BS. Stop using leaps of logic to justify that video as anything but what it really is: Pre-rendered hype generating propaganda video that has little to do with the final product.

 

[byproduct]

I'm not joining in on the argument buit I just wanted to say how impressive the HAIR is in that Killzone demo - best hair modelling/texturing ever.

And if Sony was always going to stick to just one console colour I'm just glad they didn't choose white - although the battarang probably would look less like a bargain PC controller if it was black or white.

 

[aaaaa0]

Cell adds way more vertex power than you'll find on XeCPU or Xenos.

How much do you consider "way more vertex power"?

On paper, CELL's a little over twice as fast FPU-wise as XeCPU, and it gets that mostly by forcing the developer to chop up his code into little pieces and manage stuff he doesn't normally have to think about as much on other architectures.