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Kutaragi talks more on PS3
- Thread starter Elios83
- Start date
Kobold said:
(a) You're making those numbers up
(b) Assuming you're even half-right, there's no reason those flying vehicles need even half of 100k polygons. You get great models in FORZA and GT4 with just 5-10k polys, and those vehicles have compound curves, which these don't. But even then, 2*100k + 20*20k = 600k polygons per scene. 600k polygons * 60fps = 36Mpps. Xenos has a draw rate of 500Mpps. RSX (if anything like a G70) will have a draw rate upwards of 1Bpps. 36Mpps is a drop in the bucket. And both machines should be able to create more vertices than that on their CPUs.
So again, I think a lot of bad assumptions are being made here. People are confusing aesthetics with technical prowess. KZ2 looked the shit. If you want to toss around numbers though, you'll need more evidence to support arguments of feasibility. PEACE.
Shogmaster said:
Leaps of logic I am not making. I expect graphics of that level from BOTH machines. I don't think pre-launch titles on incomplete dev kits are even remotely indicative of what we will see in the later gens, much less late next year. You say it's pre-rendered hype, but you are unable to justify it beyond a reasonable doubt, correct? This is as bad as me assuming RSX will be more powerful than Xenos. But at least there's established precedent to support that. What evidence is there to suggest we'll never see images of that quality from consoles this gen? The fact that you don't believe it? That others don't believe. That's not conclusive.
At least one of the CG experts at B3D tried breaking it down item-by-item. But even that assumed that some of the effects aren't quicky shortcuts. As I pointed out in a previous thread. The geometry ceiling for these systems is high. EXTREMELY high. If RSX draws tris at the same rate as the G70, then it will draw 1.1Bpps. That's a peak that'll never be reached, but that draw rate supports scene complexity of over 18M polys per scene. Ignoring HOS and LOD, what would lead you to believe that the current systems can't pull it off? I'm not talking opinion, I'm talking tech reasons. What's the lighting elements that are impossible. Clearly geometry is within the stated limits. What shader effects can't be done?
Again, I'm not gonna say it's definite or not, but some of you are dismissive based on little to no evidence, just conjecture. Considering how quickly people told us to scale back out expectations after seeing the lackluster DOA4, and the ensuing backpedal when it became apparent that Team Ninja simply laid an egg. The same for PD0. In order to defend a lackluster showing, we were told to curtail our expectations. Bullshit. This gen better be worth the money, and there's still a considerable step from KZ2 to even first-run CG on the PS1. So just b/c some have lowered expectations doesn't mean the rest of us have to as well. PEACE.
Shogmaster
Member
Chiggs said:
:lol
Chiggs
Gold Member
SolidSnakex said:
Unfortunately, I'm at work, and the IT folks here have implemented an amazing new ANTI-STREAMING technology. So... I'm forced to look at pictures:
http://www.pipeworks.com/oldgallery.html
The link above is to a gallery of the original Xbox demos. After looking at the Raven pics, I'm still not left feeling that Microsoft was bullshitting everyone with that demo (now, the Raven demo with FSAA is a different story). I mean, some of the games on the Xbox are at that level.
Perhaps I'm missing something that only the video can shed light on? Or maybe it's my Microsoft goggles?
SolidSnakex
Member
Chiggs said:Perhaps I'm missing something that only the video can shed light on? Or maybe it's my Microsoft goggles?
No that's not the problem, the problem is you're using the demo they released afterwards that was running in real time. This is what it originally looked like
Now you see why people say the XBox never touched it?
I'm making them up, true, I really think they have far higher polycounts on everything.Pimpwerx said:
You kind of forget the inmense background, massive explosions and smoke effects, animations, real time shadowing on everything, whatever other lighting simulation, scriptings etc. being excecuted same time assuming it would ever be in-game. It's not on vertices alone, that's just illustrating. Then you can't possibly calculate it with the peak numbers you mentioned since we are talking 1st gen game.
There is no technical comparison between GoW and Killzone demo, because they are not the same ballpark of technical detail.
But really, I hope it will happen. Sure Killzone will come out in some form, but will it be comparable in graphical fidelity? I am cynical, but wishful as a gamer.
midnightguy
Member
the real-time demos Microsoft showed off in 2000 to promote Xbox: Butterfly Garden, Ping Pong Balls, Desk with Toys, were run on an NV15 which is the GeForce2 GTS. well below the actual Xbox GPU, so of course real Xbox games surpassed those demos, including the 2nd version of the Raven-Robot demo that ran real-time on NV15.
obviously though, no Xbox game rivaled the graphics of the original pre-rendered Raven-Robot demo (pictured 3 posts above mine) or the Afro Thunder demo.
obviously though, no Xbox game rivaled the graphics of the original pre-rendered Raven-Robot demo (pictured 3 posts above mine) or the Afro Thunder demo.
MetalAlien
Banned
I bothers me people are so willing to believe the KillZone video will not be possible, and yet they bash any picture posted that is short of looking that good. "it can't look that good, but it better!"
It bothers me more than Sony of all the companies releasing hardware, is the one yet to lie to us with demos...and yet there are hordes of people ready to call them a liar. To date they've (the tech demos) all been more than do-able on the final hardware..
I don't think The Getaway demo was a hardware demo for the PS2. Individual developers might be over hyping their game to generate sales, but so far the hardware demos have been spot on.
PS, that summary of the sony demos debate and all related screen shots should definitely be archived!!!!!!
It bothers me more than Sony of all the companies releasing hardware, is the one yet to lie to us with demos...and yet there are hordes of people ready to call them a liar. To date they've (the tech demos) all been more than do-able on the final hardware..
I don't think The Getaway demo was a hardware demo for the PS2. Individual developers might be over hyping their game to generate sales, but so far the hardware demos have been spot on.
PS, that summary of the sony demos debate and all related screen shots should definitely be archived!!!!!!
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
MetalAlien said:
Epic>Killzone team, #1 reason why I call hot garbage.
Edit: Nintendo lowballs everything. I'm more apt to believe them over any others
Or you could just come out and say you've heard this possibility before, rather then making it sound it was your ideaDCharlie said:
But since we're on topic of hypothetical kernels, do you prefer the idea of that 'other' OS that will eat a similar % of CPU time and also happily go about trashing the shared L2 cache and so on and so forth?
[quote="aaaa0]On paper, CELL's a little over twice as fast FPU-wise as XeCPU[/quote]
Heh.
Shogmaster
Member
AB 101 said:
Hey I'll admit it. I suck at trolling. That's your expertice. :lol
Fafalada said:
Don't be frontin' like you know something he doesn't. I'll bet you don't even have access to neither X360 nor PS3 dev kits.
No one has mentioned yet that ambient occlusion light simulation is apparent in that Killzone demo, and that type of light sim sucks up power bigtime to be rendered. I'm not going to venture into the argument of how many polygons the ps3 can pull, but when people still use rendering clusters that can only chug through shadowing of that quality for mere pictures, I doubt a console is going to pull it off in realtime.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I hope you realize that puts you right into the "PS3 can do KZ2 level of graphics" group, if you really think Xbox games look close technically to that pre-rendered robot demo
Marconelly said:I hope you realize that puts you right into the "PS3 can do KZ2 level of graphics" group, if you really think Xbox games look close technically to that pre-rendered robot demo
I could've sworn i told you this at least twice.... but they did do the demo on xbox hardware (NV2a, NOT NV15) but never released it. Supposedly it looked almost exactly the same as the demo.
There are shortcuts that can try and mimic these effects in realtime. Not saying that's necessarily what they'll use, but just giving an example. If PGR3 is already using shortcuts for that effect, then maybe the same can be done on the PS3.Neex said:
Don't get me wrong, that video was most certainly prerendered. But was it rendered to target specs or not? I'd like to think it was, b/c I'd like to imagine that's the level of performance of the hardware. I don't expect every scene to be choreographed like that outside of cutscenes, but as far as geometry levels and lighting, I'm expecting that if not first gen, then 2nd. It won't be from every dev, though. That's a lot of artwork and detail to generate. PEACE.
Pictures got out, but it didn't really come close. That demo had a bunch of lights (something heavily contested from the moment it was released), and AA out the wazoo. The realtime version was a fucking sham in comparison. But that's really the only demo they faked. PEACE.DopeyFish said:
Pimpwerx said:
I think MS made three mistakes with the render. First, the AA was absurd. I still think many games look as good, but with lower AA (like the Halo 2 shot I included.) Second, the entire demo was two characters in a room. They should have shown a scene that could reasonably be expected to be an in-game situation, rather than devote full processeing power to something that would not happen in a game. Makes comparisons tough.
Third, and most important, it was a render, which should not have been released in the first place. Fortunately, MS has learned the lesson there. With this one down the other two are moot.
Of course, they went with in-progress gameplay at this year's E3, and we all know how kind we were as a result.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Do I speak for everyone when I say "Yawn"?
I wish my PS3 was black too...
At least it won't come with a big green X on the front of it.
I wish my PS3 was black too...
At least it won't come with a big green X on the front of it.
SolidSnakex
Member
GhaleonEB said:
When you see close ups of H2 characters they've very clearly not up to the level of that demo.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Chiggs said:http://www.pipeworks.com/oldgallery.html
The link above is to a gallery of the original Xbox demos. After looking at the Raven pics, I'm still not left feeling that Microsoft was bullshitting everyone with that demo (now, the Raven demo with FSAA is a different story). I mean, some of the games on the Xbox are at that level.
IMO, still haven't seen anything on Xbox approach that Raven demo.
Not only that, it says on the pipeworks site...
The following tech demos were developed prior to the Game Developers Conference in March to show the initial power of the Xbox system. These demos represent only 10% of the Xbox power and should not be considered as future gaming titles.
So, Xbox is supposed to render 10 of those Raven demo scenes at the same time at over 60fps?
I'm staying out of this one...
night...
CrimsonSkies
Member
Ninja Gaiden Black blows that Raven Demo away in my book.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
Did anyone else notice this part in the Gamespot article??
If that's a hint of RSX, following suit of CELL.... RSX may be weaker than expected with disabled pipes as well........???
If that's a hint of RSX, following suit of CELL.... RSX may be weaker than expected with disabled pipes as well........???
seismologist
Banned
Tenacious-V said:
I dont think the performance numbers have been based on a certain number of pipes or transistor count. From what's been said, the cell design isn't dependent on a beefy GPU so it shouldn't matter.
The redundancy in the GPU is a good idea though. I'm guessing the RSX will be based on the high end PC chip at the time but configured with fewer pipes enabled to reduce cost.
"following suit of Cell" would mean that the specs they announced would already be taking into account disabled circuitry. So, no, I don't think this comment points to weaker than expected performance for RSX.Tenacious-V said:
Stop using leaps of logic to accuse them of making the KZ video simply as hype generating propaganda that has little to do with final product then. They said the video was assembled to spec. If you're going to accuse others of lying, it helps greatly if you can provide concrete proof of the lie, rather than engaging in the same kind of lazy regard for the truth that you are accusing them of.shogmaster said:
From what I can see, that killzone scene is using MILLIONS of polygons for each character. There is no normal mapping like in the gears of war (where actual characters are in the thousands of polygons range). Don't forget that the video art assets weren't even created by Guerilla but by another studio and there hasn't been any resemblence of an actual game existing yet. For example look at the stuff on the ground in the killzone shot and compare it to gears of war low res textures for rocks. It is FACT that the killzone shot has at least 50x the number of polygons than the Gears of War shot. Anybody who has worked with CG will tell you that. It is way beyond power of next-gen consoles. An "approximation" with normal maps can be made, but it won't look the same.
Shogmaster
Member
thorns said:
Exactly. I've looked at millions of polygons per scene animation for couple of years almost everyday at work back in the day (Mainframe) and I can tell when someone is BSing me about realtime with pre-rendered. That video is pre-rendered poly geometry and high quality production CG BS PR propaganda, pure and simple.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
"Or you could just come out and say you've heard this possibility before, rather then making it sound it was your idea
it was my idea!
"But since we're on topic of hypothetical kernels, do you prefer the idea of that 'other' OS that will eat a similar % of CPU time and also happily go about trashing the shared L2 cache and so on and so forth?
it should have no OS and should rely on magic.
(when you getting here? rumour has it we need to stock up on gin again)
MetalAlien
Banned
What? Million polygons per character? LOL that's rich, you'd think that killzone footage were the next Square movie...
It's not that impressive, jeez... give it a rest...
It's not that impressive, jeez... give it a rest...
Shogmaster
Member
MetalAlien said:
These guys are minimum of 500,000 polygons. Easily. The Season 3 reboot was pushing over 500,000 for the main characters, and these guys are way more detailed than they were.
Shogmaster
Member
ThirdEye said:No, it's called NURBS
And we didn't know how to use NURBS at Mainframe. :rolleyes
MetalAlien
Banned
Shogmaster said:
You don't get much for 500k polys do ya?....50k tops.
There's no end to this, we'll just have to wait and see, think how proud you'll feel if your right, and how silly I'll think you are if you're wrong.
So you've gone from endorsing thorns claim as "exactly" right that the character models are using millions of polys (which means at least 2 million) to a figure about a quarter of that. Well done on the commitment to truth over propaganda there, Shog.Shogmaster said:
Kid Chameleon
Member
Numerous Sony reps have stated that the Killzone demo (amongst others) was pre-rendered using the expected final specs of PS3 as a base. Therefore, the way I see it, these demos used: maximum polygon counts PS3 has to offer, maximum texturing capabilities, all possible lighting techniques, depth of field, motion blur, advanced animation etc.
There will NOT be any PS3 games that use all these elements at once and with as much overall polish as the demos. Some things will be compromised in order to get games running smoothly with responsive gameplay.
There will NOT be any PS3 games that use all these elements at once and with as much overall polish as the demos. Some things will be compromised in order to get games running smoothly with responsive gameplay.