Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
Shogmaster said:
Kinda veering off topic, but you work at Mainframe??
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Kutaragi talks more on PS3
- Thread starter Elios83
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Kinda veering off topic, but you work at Mainframe??
Shogmaster
Member
kaching said:
Well well. Your true colors are showing bright.
First, my "exactly" was about his assessment, not about the exactness of his numbers.
Second, "millions" could still be totally right, since I said the characters are at the very least 500,000. They could very well be more than 2 million.
Look at these 500,000ish charcters from Reboot Season 3:
Tenacious-V said:
Remain on topic damn you!!! Oh wait.... none of this has much to do with KK's interview. :lol
Yeah, I worked at Mainframe for couple of years. Worked on parts of Reboot Season 3, Wierd-Ohs, Beast Wars Season 3, and a touch of War Planets.
MetalAlien
Banned
Yea but that's just brute force rendering instead of using the tricks that real time rendering uses ... for example the XB360 game screen Gears of War or something, screens that appeared in this thread... they look every bit as good... (yes i've read your comments on those images)..
Dude no matter how hard you try, if the next gen games don't look at least as good as the KZ they should wait until they do... it wouldn't be worth 300bucks otherwise.
You're nitpicking on absolute rounded curves, as a graphic artist you should know how they can fake that for real time.... they were prerender demos to give you an idea what to expect, not optimised code.... relax!
Dude no matter how hard you try, if the next gen games don't look at least as good as the KZ they should wait until they do... it wouldn't be worth 300bucks otherwise.
You're nitpicking on absolute rounded curves, as a graphic artist you should know how they can fake that for real time.... they were prerender demos to give you an idea what to expect, not optimised code.... relax!
several reasons the reboot characters look worse....
they're plain flatout worse art, they have minimal texturing, their animations aren't as advanced (due to the work it would take to develop the physics based algorithms for movement, clothing/hair movement) etc. Their proportions are also off.
I challenge you to render a 100,000 poly cylinder and render a 1 million poly cylinder and then post them here. Hell, do it with a sphere too; just don't label them. Don't forget to add texturing and at least 2XFSAA.
they're plain flatout worse art, they have minimal texturing, their animations aren't as advanced (due to the work it would take to develop the physics based algorithms for movement, clothing/hair movement) etc. Their proportions are also off.
I challenge you to render a 100,000 poly cylinder and render a 1 million poly cylinder and then post them here. Hell, do it with a sphere too; just don't label them. Don't forget to add texturing and at least 2XFSAA.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
Shogmaster said:
Dear god man, awesome!!! +1000000 respect dude!! Mainframe owned me back in the beginning of CG TV shows!! I was a magnet to all Reboot seasons and all Beasties seasons, and started to watch War Planets but school killed the time! Props dude. My brother's taking classes now on computer animation because I got him into those shows.
What parts did you take in for Beast Wars and reboot??
SolidSnakex
Member
Syb said:
Sure why not? It's been said that development time would increase next gen anyway.
Shogmaster
Member
Zaptruder said:
It's not about looking "better" or "worse" (although they look pretty decent for circa 1997 TV animation with about two months production time per 22 minute episode), I'm talking about pure geometry. Look at these 500K guys and look at the KZ video guys and tell me which have more polys.
Tenacious-V said:
Defensor said:
Guys, I was just a pencil monkey there. One of the few pure "concept art" guys though. All main characters for anything Mainframe was done pretty much by a Britsh comic artist by the name of Brendan McCarthy. And then there were handful of others that did rest of the stuff, like support charcters, sets, vehicles etc. (one of us was the ex-hubby of Gillian Anderson). I was one of those guys. Worked on Reboot S3 for handful of episodes, a Bunch of Beast Wars S3 episodes, and all pre-production vehicle stuff for Wierd-Ohs.
MetalAlien
Banned
Just great, now they'll all listen to him.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
MetalAlien said:Just great, now they'll all listen to him.
Did you ever think that maybe he could be right?? Be realistic here, he's had a job in the field that deals with this type of thing, us on the other hand...... The Sony fans can argue it, but they ultimately don't have experience and are going off of PR statements. I don't know anything about it, as do the majority of people here. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt, he's got more experience with it than any of us.
this is what a character with 2 million polygons looks like:
and 5000:
Then a normal map can be created using that to give a low polygon model a high polygon lighning model. Which makes it look very nice, but still nowhere like the original. I wish I could find a normal mapped vs. original source.
The detail seems to be on par with the killzone models, no? Considering the modelling of the clothes, individual hairs, gun and all the extreme detail. Look at the modelling in the guys glove ffs.
and 5000:
Then a normal map can be created using that to give a low polygon model a high polygon lighning model. Which makes it look very nice, but still nowhere like the original. I wish I could find a normal mapped vs. original source.
The detail seems to be on par with the killzone models, no? Considering the modelling of the clothes, individual hairs, gun and all the extreme detail. Look at the modelling in the guys glove ffs.
SolidSnakex
Member
jiggle said:
It's likely i'd think. You've also got FFXII that was announced back in 2001 and its still not out.
All I have to add to this thread is that Reboot has always looked like fucking shit, worst motherfucking art ever. Even if the characters employed a gazillion number of polygons, it would still look like some of the most repugnant garbage to ever come out of a computer. Killzone looks nice mostly because of the artstyle and the way the demo was directed/cut.
Tenacious-V said:
This is commonly done with GPUs. Manufacture with X pipelines, ship with Y "enabled". They've yet to announce specifics on the GPU, so there's little to be weaker than..anything they have said about it will have accounted for that possibility already.
Shogmaster
Member
jett said:
You have to walk before you can fly. The Reboot was inevitable steps before your Killzone videos. Remember what CG stuff there were back in 1995~97.
Funny thing is, I ran into many of ex-Mainframe guys at E3 working on exactly things like that.
Just looking for some consistency in your Tom Cruise-esque ranting about wanting the truth. Thorns numbers are signficant part of the assessment. You want to say "Exactly" to the assessment then you're saying exactly to the numbers.Shogmaster said:
And you've still only gotten us a quarter of the way there. 1.5 million extra polys are the only possible way they could have pulled off the character models in KZ video?
Shogmaster
Member
kaching said:
Are you, I don't know, dense? What part of 2mil > 500K don't you get? I said specifically, at the very least 500K. I believe 2M fits that description.
Not sure what those are supposed to proove though - I've seen better looking characters done within 50-100k budget (and I'm talking just look of models, without any benefit of normal mapping hacks).Shogmaster said:
Heck look at DOA4 characters - from what I can tell they seem to fall right into 50k range somewhere and can you honestly say Reboot stuff looks better or noticeably more detailed?
I'll give you that Killzone chars are definately higher poly then that(and may very well be in 500k range), but so was the Robot from the She-Male demo, (just the Robot alone in that demo was 500k polys) and you get people claiming right in this very thread how XBox games not only look better, but even have more details...
Shogmaster
Member
Fafalada said:
Again, i'm talking about geometry detail, not about artistic merit or impact.
MetalAlien
Banned
OMG I just found out Tekken Tag Tournament used 500k poly models... now we're back to square one.
joking
joking
Shogmaster
Member
Let's just say these guys are 1,000,000 poly models. I saw easily 3 dozen charcters in that video, but let's just say you could be seeing 12 guys per frame. That would be 12 million polys per frame, just on the NPCs running around. @ 60fps, like in that video, that's 720M polys per second. WITHOUT ANYTHING ELSE like vehicles, particles, backdrop, etc..
Even if we are generous and give PS3 2X the polygon output of X360 @ 1 Billion per second, the math still stinks to high heaven.
Now you could say, "well shit shog, why can't they use LOD, and normal mapping, etc. just like Gear of War? And they could compress the textures, and repeat some animations, and lessen the particle FXs, and maybe even go to 30fps! That would make this easily be doable PS3!". But then kids, it really won't have the impact of this video anymore, will it? And they could have easily made a video with normal mapped lower poly characters and more realistic textures for 512MB, and on and on and on, but the fact of the matter is, they didn't. They wanted the impact that this uncompromised pre-rendered video would bring at the unveiling.
And it gave them just that. Just look at all of you going to this kind of lengths to defend the proprosition of this way beyond the best case scenario footage. And even though the hardwares are only 6 months apart, you have fools like that male cohost on G4TV.com sprouting at every chance that X360 is launching too early, while PS3 is launching just right 6 months afterwards.
SCEE is masters of hype built on BS, and many fell for it hook, line and sinker.
Kid Chameleon
Member
I'll be getting mine at launch with Street Fighter EX4, Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and Wild Wild Racing 2!
Kid Chameleon
Member
By the way, Wild Wild Racing = PS2 launch title = high res N64 game (with worse gameplay!).
Shogmaster said:
Let's just say these guys are 1,000,000 poly models. I saw easily 3 dozen charcters in that video, but let's just say you could be seeing 12 guys per frame. That would be 12 million polys per frame, just on the NPCs running around. @ 60fps, like in that video, that's 720M polys per second. WITHOUT ANYTHING ELSE like vehicles, particles, backdrop, etc..
Even if we are generous and give PS3 2X the polygon output of X360 @ 1 Billion per second, the math still stinks to high heaven.
Now you could say, "well shit shog, why can't they use LOD, and normal mapping, etc. just like Gear of War? And they could compress the textures, and repeat some animations, and lessen the particle FXs, and maybe even go to 30fps! That would make this easily be doable PS3!". But then kids, it really won't have the impact of this video anymore, will it? And they could have easily made a video with normal mapped lower poly characters and more realistic textures for 512MB, and on and on and on, but the fact of the matter is, they didn't. They wanted the impact that this uncompromised pre-rendered video would bring at the unveiling.
And it gave them just that. Just look at all of you going to this kind of lengths to defend the proprosition of this way beyond the best case scenario footage. And even though the hardwares are only 6 months apart, you have fools like that male cohost on G4TV.com sprouting at every chance that X360 is launching too early, while PS3 is launching just right 6 months afterwards.
SCEE is masters of hype built on BS, and many fell for it hook, line and sinker.
Serving up your own brand of bullshit here I suppose, pretty much trying to discredit the idea that KZ2 will even approach looking as good. Well, if you're a anally rententive cunt like yourself, who nitpicks at the roundness of shoulderpads, then I suppose it would make a difference. But I don't see why they can't reasonably scale 1million down to 50-100k per model. It would still represent a dramatic increase in quality outside of even stuff like GoW (which uses 5k polys in the low quality model).
Fair enough that you can tell the difference between 5k normal mapped and 2million polygon models... but can you show us a better, more realistic of expectations example with 30-100k models with normal maps? I'm guessing the difference would be a fair deal harder to detect especially with advanced shader supports.
Also, where the fuck do you get the that the images texture resolutions are way beyond what 512mb of super fast RAM can handle? IIRC, aren't people expecting texture resolutions to be something like... 1400*1400 pixels? I don't see why they would need to decrease the texture map quality in such a circumstance.
I mean, I know you work in some parts of the industry, but it would seem that your real technical knowledge is a little limited, and that your exasperation should be taken with as much salt as the Sony 'bullshit' (including comments from their marketing head, true, but also comments garnered from developers, such as DeanOC and what not), if not more so.
Sony are good with hype, lets not deny it; but they've also done a pretty good job at meeting alot of that hype, if not exactly matching it, then at least coming in the range where it's satisfactorily, without a hint of cyncism close enough to what was shown; if they overhype their products, beyond what people can ever reasonably expect, then truthfully, as history has shown it ends up hurting them more. Sony plans their business around long term; and to them, the long term overall impression is much more important than delaying some sales and getting some big sales on the first few weeks of launch, before everyone stops to report the overhype and word of mouth gets around about the general disappointment of the overhyped product.
Ticket sales to such disposable experiences such as Star Wars might mean that the disappointment and the revenues don't exactly correlate, but with higher ticket priced items, where commodities have a much higher demand elasticity, word of mouth and similar general impressions can have a huge affect on end sales.
Unreal 3 has shown that normal maps can help create the impression of millions of polys with a relatively low poly model. Lets assume KZ2 uses similar tech. But they can't simluate that if they can't use normal maps in their modelling package. Which makes sense because they have time to render, so they'd just use the original models.
So maybe those KZ2 models are the original models, and they'll be used as the source to create normal maps in the actual game. Which will mostly look exactly the same apart from slightly blockier round edges (see UE3)
And I have no idea whether KZ2 will look like that, but I can dream. Shog on the other hand is perfectly happy for his speculation to be fact.
Characters at this level of detail are likely one of the things best suited for continous LOD. If done properly, characters could have the exact same visual impact as the version with no LOD, at a fraction of the on-screen poly budget.Shogmaster said:
Of course polycount isn't the biggest issue in reproducing that video but anyway...
mrklaw said:
Lets be honest. UE3 looks pretty damned good, and those character models only have around the 5000 poly range.
Given the kinda horse power we're expecting outta the PS3, 50k models don't seem so outta whack; that's a 10 fold increase in the number of polygons... as a little exercise, draw an arc with say... 5 lines, then draw it with 15 lines... I guess that's the kind of quality increase on edges you can expect with 10 times more polygons.
Shogmaster
Member
Zaptruder said:
I thought I just covered this line of thinking. And calling me cunt will get you everywhere, you cute little rotund cat.... thing you.
The point is not about whether PS3 will get games that will have the overall visual relative of that KZ video. I'm sure it will. The point is that they showed this high quality everything video when they could have shown something far more realistic. That's the point.
The texture quality shown on that video is akin to the quality of textures on a superfast GDDR3 VRAM equipped PC videocard sporting 512MB all by itself. Realistically, you will have much more compressed textures for a machine totalling 512MB for everything. I don't care how much streaming of textures from BR disc to RAM there is, it won't be fast enough for the level of textures seen in the video.
Did DeanoC say the KZ video looked perfectly realistic? I would love that link, thanks.
Fafalada said:Characters at this level of detail are likely one of the things best suited for continous LOD. If done properly, characters could have the exact same visual impact as the version with no LOD, at a fraction of the on-screen poly budget.
Of course polycount isn't the biggest issue in reproducing that video but anyway...
Yer such a tease you... *grabs Faffy by his cheeks*
No, not those cheeks, you sick bastard!
Shogmaster said:Did DeanoC say the KZ video looked perfectly realistic? I would love that link, thanks.
I'm only calling you a cunt if that statement applies to you. If it doesn't, well then ignore it and I'll humbly rescind my epithet.
Anyway, I was calling you out on the general impressions your vehement statements give; which is "No way no how will PS3 games ever look as good as the shit shown in the KZ2 trailer", to which I respond by saying, "Bullshit, the games will likely look pretty damn close to what's shown, even if it doesn't end up with super round humanly undectable curved surfaces."
As for the DeanOC reference; I'm pointing you towards his trailer, which shows stuff that is on a technical level that's arguably on par with the KZ2 demo; with the massive amount of highly detailed units on screen. He does admit that he currently isn't running it in real time in those sections, but more than expects to be able to do so by the time of release, which again relates back to the general impression your statements give off, and my rebuttal towards it.
You can duck my comments by saying it wasn't your point, (the general impression that I was infering), in which case, I'll say your point is not only moot, but serves the thread poorly, by been filled with bait.
Shogmaster
Member
Zaptruder said:
Well then could I call you an annoying little bitch? Only if it applies to you obcourse.
Seriously now, why calling me names, brah? I thought you were a cool cat. Just for a mere personal gaming alliance, you gonna call other forum goers cunts? Don't be that guy, brah.Read carefully and you might not miss the point again. I'm pointing out the unscrupulousness of showing such video as realtime (which Harrison repeatedly said on G4TV interviews). And since you guys are bright enough to tell that it's not, I ask then, why are they doing that? Misleading, no? I'm bitching about that.
First, there is a world of difference between what KZ video showed and the HS video showed.
Second, until both of these games actually ship, we shall reserve the judgemnet on how successful they were on achieving their targets.
Hey, I was not the one who first took this thread off course. But I will gladly participate in the discussion, since so many are willing to part take with me (looking at you, kiddo).
Angelus said:
Faggot is a discriminatory term. Hell, it's not kosher to use gay here as an offensive term. Cunt on the otherhand, last time I checked was just a pretty rude way of saying vagina, kinda like cock is for penis... although people have become pretty desensitized to the latter. If you really find cunt that offensive, then I'm sorry about it; although a little redundant to edit now that it's been quoted twice and used 6+ times, so please feel free to replace it with cockmongrel, fuck face, or some other equally vehement, rude, but personally inoffensive* display of exasperation fitting the context of my post.
*If you're mortally offended by swear words, GAF isn't really the place for you
Shogmaster said:Well then could I call you an annoying little bitch? Only if it applies to you obcourse.
It's cool; I just like to fill my posts with generic rage in order to get points across. The thought of *angrily* banging away at keys and grunting obsceneties while typing is more than a little absurd, at least to me.
Shogmaster
Member
Zaptruder said:
Don't let Bishop catch you at your generic rage, brah. My generic rage got me banned couple of time already. Undeserved I thought, but he's got the banstick and we just have our little accounts.
Shogmaster said:Don't let Bishop catch you at your generic rage, brah. My generic rage got me banned couple of time already. Undeserved I thought, but he's got the banstick and we just have our little accounts.
This little back and forth is really deflating all the fun of the generic rage. But man, are our post counts looking good. ;p
Shogmaster
Member
Zaptruder said:
Sheeeit, I could care less about post counts. It means jack to me.
Now senority on the other hand.....
Can I suggest that Shog and Zaptruder are potentially agreeing on this topic?
So Shog is agreeing that the PS3 has that potential, but won't be able to recreate that actual scene , as its prerendered CG. I think Zap seems to be saying the same thing.
Can we all agree that PS3 is unlikely to recreate that KZ2 video exactly as it was shown, due to the particular way it was created (CG render). But it may be possible for something that looks that good to appear on PS3, using tricks like normal mapping and other development tools to mitigate the difference between realtime and prerendered?
shogmaster said:
So Shog is agreeing that the PS3 has that potential, but won't be able to recreate that actual scene , as its prerendered CG. I think Zap seems to be saying the same thing.
Can we all agree that PS3 is unlikely to recreate that KZ2 video exactly as it was shown, due to the particular way it was created (CG render). But it may be possible for something that looks that good to appear on PS3, using tricks like normal mapping and other development tools to mitigate the difference between realtime and prerendered?
Shogmaster
Member
mrklaw said:
I don't know about Zap, but yep, I am inline with your assessment. With the same tools like normal maps and such on GoW, I can see PS3 games in some ways being even more impressive than the KZ video. The same way that DoA Ultimate is more impressive to me in some ways than the robot and the man lady demo is for XBox, even though technically, DoA U does not come close to that demo.
Having said all that, it still pisses me off that SCEE chose to go that route with KZ "demo", even when the Cell + 6800U SLI kits are far more powerful than X360 alpha kits, and they had that kit for many months now. It's not as if normal maps are unique to UE3 or something!
Zaptruder said:
I don't need a dictionary to know that when you call someone a cunt,its worth a trip to the timeout chair. When discussions become nasty name calling back and forth its more than likely going to call in more trouble the longer the discussion goes. I think its weak to resort to explicit name calling is all,other than that,I'm enjoying the discussion betwen the both of you,its makes for good reading.
Angelus said:
Well if you really want to get down to the issue, I find your explicit call for my banning over such an issue more offensive then you probably find the swearing.
It might not be called for, but at the same time, again, if you're so sensitive to some swearing, either move for change in GAF policy, or get off the board, as there's plenty of swearing around here when tensions get high (but not all or even most of the time).
In otherwords, GAF is a forum primarily for young adult males; if you don't really fit into that mindset, then you're probably not gonna be here. If you do, then it's fair enough to expect the pros and cons of such an environment.
Doom_Bringer
Banned
About this killzone stuff I think Dave Perry from IGN Xbox put it the best:
Gorilla is an incapable dev. They can't make good looking games on any system.
Shellshock looked like shit on all three platforms and they couldnt even get PS2 to push some decent frame rate for killzone
The whole thing was just bullshit.
Gorilla is an incapable dev. They can't make good looking games on any system.
Shellshock looked like shit on all three platforms and they couldnt even get PS2 to push some decent frame rate for killzone
The whole thing was just bullshit.
You must have a terrible memory...you were told that there are seperate dev teams behind the shellshock and killzone games...now...regarding killzone/shellshock you aren't that bad as I think this is only your first case of selective amnesia...Doom_Bringer said:About this killzone stuff I think Dave Perry from IGN Xbox put it the best:
Gorilla is an incapable dev. They can't make good looking games on any system.
Shellshock looked like shit on all three platforms and they couldnt even get PS2 to push some decent frame rate for killzone
The whole thing was just bullshit.
common sense would have allowed you to see this due to both games being in developement at the same time :b
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Hardly uncompromised if you ask me. Yes, everything in it is very round and nicely animated, but some of the things in it looked worse than I'd expect them to look in game. There were bunch of scenes where nothing would have even the basic shadow on the ground, and the fire effect looked cheap, just to name some things that come to mind immediately. The most impressive thing about that trailer were it's direction, art/atmosphere, animation and explosions. Even if characters had a lot less polygons than they did, it wouldn't change much of it's impact.
Yes, but I still have yet to see any proof of that
Even if they did make it, my point was that if he thinks games that use low poly charcters and normal maps, look close to that prerendered demo with subdivided poly characters, he should be feeling comfy among the people saying KZ2 will look close visually to it's trailerSolidSnakex
Member
Yep, the teams are definetly different. And while KZ1's framerate might have not been the best, its not nearly as bad as some people try to make it out to be. It's one of the best looking games on the system overall
