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LAPD Officer's Op-Ed: "Don't challenge us and we won't hurt you"
- Thread starter Angry Grimace
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Grimm Fandango
Member
The article isn't that bad. The beginning is kinda rough but I agree with what he says towards the end.
While it's been cops killing and shooting people all over the news recently don't forget that cops get shot all the time for no reason to. It's not a job I would want to have.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-held-minnesota-officer-killed-traffic-stop/story?id=24781737
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoI4G1fWmEQ
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-shootout-pursuit-20140818-story.html
Notice in the first two the cops are shot by white guys. The 2nd link is really sad as the cop had time and every right to shot the guy and save his own life.
There are shitty people in all walks of life. People always talk about soldiers being heroes but the worst people I've known were ones I meet in the Army.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-held-minnesota-officer-killed-traffic-stop/story?id=24781737
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoI4G1fWmEQ
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-shootout-pursuit-20140818-story.html
Notice in the first two the cops are shot by white guys. The 2nd link is really sad as the cop had time and every right to shot the guy and save his own life.
There are shitty people in all walks of life. People always talk about soldiers being heroes but the worst people I've known were ones I meet in the Army.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
It's victim blaming at its finest. He's not asking people to be polite because they may stumble with a bad cop, but literally telling the public that he, himself, the writer of that very article, may use lethal force against you for doing as much as mouthing off or walking towards him.
Odothehero
Member
Of course that SHOULDN'T happen. But in your post you acknowledge it does.
So if an officer pulls you over for some bullshit, and he has just found out his wife is fucking a black guy, what are you gonna do? He's a psychopath with a gun. Of course it should not happen ever. But when it does holy shit why would you antagonize the guy who can legally kill you on a whim?
He doesn't condone what the officers are doing, and he even calls for them all to have cameras. To me he's just saying the obvious: if your rights are being violated, obviously it's a bad cop, and why would you give them a reason to shoot you?
(Just because people get killed by cops when they do comply, it doesn't make this any less of a harm minimization technique)
Then you're part of the problem. What a stupid attitude.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
To everyone complaining about the article, what's your complaint? His advice seems like common sense for the vast majority of police interactions. Ultimately, he's not saying that action X, Y, or Z taken by the police is right or wrong; he's just stating what is and what is not the proper method of raising the impropriety of the police action.
That is beside the point. Everything leading up to "you are under arrest" is irrelevant.
At the point when a cop decides to arrest you, WHAT IS THE BENEFIT of resisting? You will not get away. You may end up dead. You will get additional charges (assault, resisting).
If your rights have been violated then your only recourse is legal action.
Please describe a scenario where a cop tries to arrest you illegally and you resist as you think you should. Play it out to its conclusion.
A little hyperbolic with a fairly out there straw man thrown in.
Necromanti
Member
The problem lies with the fact that some cops don't need a reason to violate your rights; merely looking a certain way is grounds for them to act with violence. How do you protect yourself from that? Just look at all the recorded instances of policemen beating people under the pretense of "they were resisting" when they define "resisting" as drawing breath.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
You kind of got caught in the crossfire bruh. But to be honest with you, the idea that someone can or should be "polite" while refusing to obey illegal commands from an officer is fantasy world logic. No cop is going to allow someone to refuse politely, and very few people have the calm and patience to be abused directly by someone with a gun and authority without losing their shit.
Nothing is going change with this attitude. Yes, you were illegally stopped, searched, detained, and the officers took your money and do not intend to return it. You can write a strongly worded letter to their commanding officer. To city officials. To your state representative and senator. To the mayor. To your governor. To the Los Angeles Times. To Rachel Maddow..
Guess what? Thousands of other people are writing these letters. Daily. Millions are writing them monthly. Television segments are dedicated to them. Op-Ed sections. Speeches. 99% of the time, nothing is going to happen. 1% of the time you will get a significant payout. And 100% of the time you will be contributing to the continual pushback of civil rights by an aggressive, militarized, and largely corrupt American law enforcement community.
So yes, the benefit of complying is "only" the fact that without you and me and our fellow citizens planting our feet on the ground and refusing to allow the gross mistreatment of Americans by police, shit is just going to stay the same. And I don't want things the same.
^^^^^ see above
Yep, just comply. They are just trying to do their job and enforce the law. I mean, it is completely unheard of that a significant number of police and police departments make false arrests so that they can seize your assets. Oh wait...
This is likely a bad thing and likely caused by some emotion rather than logical thinking, but I have pretty much lost respect for police officers over the last year or so.
There is no proper method because it is virtually impossible to get justice if a cop infringed on your rights.
This is likely a bad thing and likely caused by some emotion rather than logical thinking, but I have pretty much lost respect for police officers over the last year or so.
There is no proper method because it is virtually impossible to get justice if a cop infringed on your rights.
abstract alien
Member
Well, I'd be surprised to find anyone who actually thought something positive would come from doing any of those things he mentioned, especially in a tense situation. Right or wrong, it should be common sense to not do anything from that list unless you want something negative to happen.
Speaking solely on the list, not on what else is going on in the world.
Speaking solely on the list, not on what else is going on in the world.
ElRenoRaven
Member
This is a prime example of the type of cop you don't want on your police force.
While the tone of this article comes across as very bullish and kind of pisses me off, the officer is not completely wrong. He seems to give the same kind inflammatory advice we often see with victims of crime, e.g. "don't have your valuables out" or "don't wear certain clothes" type of advice that is construed as victim blaming.
The tone of the article rubs me the wrong way, but there is some truth to it. People don't like it when they're told to submit and are thus quick to bag on this man because of it (I'd say the tone of this article alone warrants it), but I can't see his words as complete bullshit. It's fucked up but it's practical advice given the kind of police culture that exists in the US. At least this officer seems to agree change is necessary, and is in support of all officer having cameras on their person whilst on duties and such.
The tone of the article rubs me the wrong way, but there is some truth to it. People don't like it when they're told to submit and are thus quick to bag on this man because of it (I'd say the tone of this article alone warrants it), but I can't see his words as complete bullshit. It's fucked up but it's practical advice given the kind of police culture that exists in the US. At least this officer seems to agree change is necessary, and is in support of all officer having cameras on their person whilst on duties and such.
AstroNut325
Member
I'm seriously contemplating getting hood/dash cams for my car. And my phone will start recording as soon as I start seeing any police action.
Fair and honest police is all I ask for. Not what Op-Ed person is espousing.
Fair and honest police is all I ask for. Not what Op-Ed person is espousing.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I think it's also common sense to expect a little resistance in the form of arguing or rudeness when someone feels unfairly targeted. It's human nature. It shouldn't give cops the right to rough them up.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
It's hyperbole that police routinely practice illegal search and seizure methods?
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken
^^^
posted by piecake by the way
It's hyperbole that police wantonly throw tear gas into the streets of an American neighborhood
http://grantland.com/features/ferguson-missouri-protest-michael-brown-murder-police/
It's hyperbole that police officers rarely, if ever, face accountability for their role in shootings
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/ferguson-police-officer-shootings-indictments-convictions
Everything is fine in America, because everything is fine with you.
It's practical advice for perpetuating the broken and corrupt system officers have been accustomed to, that's for sure.
Ok, and what changes with the "i dont need to comply" attitude? The cops get more aggressive and the us vs. them chasm widens.
The time of arrest is the absolute worst time to assert your rights. Public debate, better police training, legislation and enforcement are the only things that will change it. Violent interactions with the police are only going to make matters worse.
Xenon
Member
You're confusing what has happened in the past with advice for the future. He even says if you cross the line he should be rightfully arrested .
Dude Abides
Banned
I agree with the article. Cops should be treated like large aggressive animals, as they are similarly unpredictable, dangerous, and quickly resort to violence. So avoid them if at all possible, but if an interaction is inevitable, do not provoke them.
Thank you. "Treat them with respect" but they don't have to treat you with respect, fuck that noise.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
But that line is blurry and not well defined at this point. We've had people beaten and killed for 'resisting arrest' when they weren't doing anything.
Lately it's "STOP RESISTING" being used to ultimately trample on people's rights and give cops a reason to beat the shit out of someone.
walking aggressively or insulting a police officer is grounds for arrest?
Sectorseven
Member
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
But to the extent that this is true, how does it affect the author's suggestions? It seems like the solution in that case is still going to arise from something other than belligerence at the time of the police interaction (such as changing the law or police oversight procedures).
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
As a minority whose gotten out of bad situations with police officers only because I didn't agitate them, I must say I don't know what you're talking about. The cop has a gun, I don't. The cop has a club, I don't. The cop (may) have a tazer, I don't. The cop has hand cuffs, I don't. While I don't have a bad temperament, can I be sure the cop doesn't? No. While the cop and I have equal authority to arrest each other if the other is breaking a law, whose has a system in place to help them enforce the law? The cop does, I don't.
Being cited or arrested on a false charge is a very real possibility, as is catching a brutal and possibly fatal beating at the hands of a person who's job makes them a more respected member of the community. When it's my word against theirs, and it's up to me to prove that I haven't done any thing wrong if they want to say I have, I have a responsibility to myself to not egg them on. I have an even bigger responsibility to not let it get to such a point, by making any interactions with law enforcement go as quickly and as smoothly as possible.
Is that they way things should work? No. But my comment wasn't based on the way things should be, it was based on the way things are in reality. If a cop is having a bad day, you don't want give them any excuse to take it out on you. If a cop feels that they're in danger, you have to do what you can to make sure they don't feel like you're a threat.
And, let's look at it from a different point of view: Cops enforce laws. That by its nature means that they have to interact often with the people that are bending or breaking those laws. If the cop is a good guy, shouldn't you, as a productive, caring member of society do what you can to make their job easier? After all, they're the ones making sure society's rules aren't broken.
I was about to say...
"Don't challenge us and we won't hurt you"
He's not lying. Not that that's a good thing.
You're going to have to summarize for me because I googled and it was all law gibberish to me.
That is complete nonsense and you know it. A bad cop may SAY that in defense of something they did illegally, but no court would convict someone of the crime of resisting arrest for "struggling to breathe"
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
One more time: It's not the tone. It's the actual message.
He's not saying "you may find a bad cop, so you win nothing resisting", which is something agreeable when you consider the circumstances, but the fact that he, the author of that Op-Ed, is openly saying that he may beat you or worse for mouthing off. Because he's a cop. And that's the shit he does, so you better suck it up and (if you are still breathing) lodge a complain later if you think your rights have been violated.
He's automatically laying the fact that he believes he has the implicit right to use lethal force on you for flipping the bird or walking towards him. So you better behave, because he's a cop and you are not.
He's not saying "you may find a bad cop, so you win nothing resisting", which is something agreeable when you consider the circumstances, but the fact that he, the author of that Op-Ed, is openly saying that he may beat you or worse for mouthing off. Because he's a cop. And that's the shit he does, so you better suck it up and (if you are still breathing) lodge a complain later if you think your rights have been violated.
He's automatically laying the fact that he believes he has the implicit right to use lethal force on you for flipping the bird or walking towards him. So you better behave, because he's a cop and you are not.
Odothehero
Member
So you can't refuse politely, but you can't comply because otherwise things are going to stay the same...
So what are you going to do? I'm genuinely interested. You'd resist the cop, have a higher chance of get beaten up and potentially fatally shot, for what exactly? A better story to tell Rachel Maddow? To be a martyr? Maybe I'm just a coward but fuck contributing to civil rights if it means I have to risk my life going one on one against a pissed off cop with a loaded gun.
Actually he is. Which makes this even worse.
Haha good point, they're liable to hurt your regardless
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Xenon
Member
Again he said he should be arrested if he did that.
I don't believe that's what he said. That is definitely not what I am saying.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
Exactly, the guy is giving us great advice. Don't look them in the eyes, and do as they say. Or you could have a bad day.
Pyramid head
Banned
First thing I thought of too.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
He's using the same contradictory, wishy washy, apologist bullshit we see each day.
"There are bad cops. Not all cops are bad. We have difficult jobs, so you must understand". And then he goes for the kill:
A bully through and through. "You have rights, except when I decide that I've gotten enough of you".
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
What changes with the "I don't need to comply" attitude?
Police will be abusive, publicly, more often. Police and their enablers will not be able to sweep their widespread corruption under the rug. Minorities will not be forced to deal with an overly aggressive and militarized police force alone, and the only class of people with true political power (white, middle class and above) will be subjected to the same treatment as others. At which point they will see the injustice of the system and force change.
The ONLY way change will be enacted is if the average citizen refuses to subject themselves to the illegal and aggressive methods of corrupt police officers. Publicly and loudly. if soccer moms are being thrown on the hoods of cars and thrown in county for a week, people will care. But, I guess that's too much to ask from the only group of people in America who aren't being bent over by police on a daily basis.
Articles like this are a plea to preserve the system made directly toward the only people who can change it. "Don't do anything, we don't hurt you" the officer says as corruption runs rampant, bodies pile up in the streets, and money is stolen from people who had the temerity to drive through the wrong county.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Liltte known American fact.
In the 50s and 60s, these exact same arguments were levied against African American citizens who complained about police brutality.
I am happy to see that since then, nothing has changed.
PROGRESS!
In the 50s and 60s, these exact same arguments were levied against African American citizens who complained about police brutality.
I am happy to see that since then, nothing has changed.
PROGRESS!
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
You know what this post is like. This post is like someone saying "Yes Priests molests kids but check out all these priests who have been molested. Its so sad! There are bad people everywhere!"
Jag
Member
What the fuck people. You have an absolute constitutional right to call a cop a racist pig. The reality is that you will probably get a beating for doing so, but that's not the law.
If a copy gives you a lawful order, you have to comply but you don't have to shut your mouth. Unfortunately cops don't even know this.
If a copy gives you a lawful order, you have to comply but you don't have to shut your mouth. Unfortunately cops don't even know this.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
It's not the way things work. But it is how they should work, which means you should be willing to sacrifice the convenience of your day, week, month, year, and life to protect an innocent man in New York who could be strangled to death by an officer for no reason. Large scale resistance--legal, justified, non-aggressive resistance--from our citizens is what I am advocating. I'm sorry that may be an obstacle in achieving what you want out of life. I wish Mike Brown were able to be inconvenienced in that way today.
Law enforcement officers are not "the good guys". They are people. People can be good or bad.
While reading OP i again am brought back to that vid where cops pull over a black guy. He complies with their demands and still gets fucked up. I mean holding your hands up the whole time while a cop is yelling "stop going for my gun"! while punching you in the fucking face, shit like this pretty much shows you don't have to "provoke" them in the least. I think maybe if law enforcement wasn't filled with psychotic , aggressive wannabe Dirty Harry types things could start moving to being a lot better.
Seems Cops have little to no interest in building the trust of the community ( especially black communities) they are meant to protect. They have a problem with treating people like fucking human beings and that is why they aren't getting the respect and cooperation they are looking for. Shit like what's written in the OP doesn't help either. Sure i am not looking to agitate any cops trying to do their jobs, but at the same time people who work for a living and are just minding their own business, don't like being harassed and treated like shit by some asshole in a uniform for no other reason than, he can. ( among other things) People start to get tired of this treatment and begin to push back.
Seems Cops have little to no interest in building the trust of the community ( especially black communities) they are meant to protect. They have a problem with treating people like fucking human beings and that is why they aren't getting the respect and cooperation they are looking for. Shit like what's written in the OP doesn't help either. Sure i am not looking to agitate any cops trying to do their jobs, but at the same time people who work for a living and are just minding their own business, don't like being harassed and treated like shit by some asshole in a uniform for no other reason than, he can. ( among other things) People start to get tired of this treatment and begin to push back.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
But they aren't so it's a load of bullshit.
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