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Latin American leaders call for end to "War on Drugs"

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Consult the end of my previous post, that goes double for you.

I definitely committed myself to the position that all drugs are equal. Of course I wouldn't want my daughter to do heroin. I don't think it needs to be illegal for that objective to be realized.

All drugs are not equal. The Vancouver Downtown EastSide is real living vile proof of the horrors of meth, crack, and heroin. Saying that the incredibly addictive life destroying hard drugs are the equivalent of weed and even alcohol is just not being realistic.

I'm for legalization, nerfing of side effects/addiction levels, and control. My stance on liquor is that it is really hard and physically sickening to become an alchoholic. It takes constant exposure over a relatively long period of time to hit the alchoholic wall. Crack, Meth, and Heroin are addictive in a really short time period and take single doses for their effects to be felt at a maximum.
 
All drugs are not equal. The Vancouver Downtown EastSide is real living vile proof of the horrors of meth, crack, and heroin. Saying that the incredibly addictive life destroying hard drugs are the equivalent of weed and even alcohol is just not being realistic.

I'm for legalization, nerfing of side effects/addiction levels, and control. My stance on liquor is that it is really hard and physically sickening to become an alchoholic. It takes constant exposure over a relatively long period of time to hit the alchoholic wall. Crack, Meth, and Heroin are addictive in a really short time period and take single doses for their effects to be felt at a maximum.
The highlight there was supposed to be sarcastic. I don't think they're all equal either, I just don't think making it illegal doesn't do anything to address the inevitable problem of use.
 
I don't think that you'd like your 25 years old daughter, who is sadly doing Heroin, to be sent to jail for years.
There's a lot of thing I don't want me theoretical daughter to do (stay of the pole Cinnamon! daddy loves you!), I just don't think the best way to stir her away from those perils is to ask the government to incarcerate her.

People act like that zero tolerance war on drugs bullshit is working for anyone but the prison industry and the DEA.

I have a very close family member who went to jail for heroin use. I agree with you completely. It's an addiction. A sickness. Not a crime. It helped not one iota to be in jail.
 
So you say drugs are good or at least not dangerous if you use them at some levels so everyone could use them in that way. The problem is that so little people can control that and a lot of people ends as adicts and that behavior is common in the U.S.

Be polite end stop calling ignorant the people just because someone do not share your point of view.

More ignorance. The fact is most users of drugs do not become addicted, and the minority actually become dependent. Even for drugs such as heroin.

http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacd/cd42/epidemiologia.pdf

The stats are:
23% of users of heroin become dependent
17% of cocaine
15% of alcohol

You were saying something about so little people can control use?

All drugs are not equal. The Vancouver Downtown EastSide is real living vile proof of the horrors of meth, crack, and heroin. Saying that the incredibly addictive life destroying hard drugs are the equivalent of weed and even alcohol is just not being realistic.

Again, more people talking about things they don't know about. Alcohol is every bit of a hard drug as heroin and crack is. It is more internally damaging than either drug. It is also more associated to violence, particularly domestic violence than either. So before you make assumptions that, "alcohol isn't as bad" maybe you should do a little more research.

EDIT: Fixed the link
 

Alebrije

Member
Why should I be polite to people who won't even do me the courtesy of saying things that are factual? When you say that so few of the people who use drugs are able to control themselves, are you saying that most people who consume alcohol are alcoholics? Bullshit.

I'm not calling you ignorant because we disagree. I'm calling you ignorant because you are making shit up.

Please do not put words that I did not say, alcoholics is other topic.

If everyone that tries drugs could control the use and wont affect their life it would be fine. Maybe some can control as and have a happy life but for a lot of people the story ends different , the problem is that these people do not see themselves as adicts and just when there is not point of return they realice that have a problem...

(english is my seccond lenguage sorry for the grammar )
 
Please do not put words that I did not say, alcoholics is other topic.

If everyone that tries drugs could control the use and wont affect their life it would be fine. Maybe some can control as and have a happy life but for a lot of people the story ends different , the problem is that these people do not see themselves as adicts and just when there is not point of return they realice that have a problem...

(english is my seccond lenguage sorry for the grammar )

So you're saying people who drink alcohol are also stupid, correct?
 

Chichikov

Member
I have a very close family member who went to jail for heroin use. I agree with you completely. It's an addiction. A sickness. Not a crime. It helped not one iota to be in jail.
And on a philosophical level, I think it's very basic human right to be able to kill yourself any way you want -
From a bullet to your head, through cheeseburgers and bungee jumps all the way to heroin.
You're joking, surely.
Not really.
"Hardness" of a drug is not an accurate measure, but alcohol can destroy your body like few drugs can.
Most of the junkies you see are suffering mostly from being poor, hungry and homeless (which their drug habit most likely contribute to).
 
Please do not put words that I did not say, alcoholics is other topic.

If everyone that tries drugs could control the use and wont affect their life it would be fine. Maybe some can control as and have a happy life but for a lot of people the story ends different , the problem is that these people do not see themselves as adicts and just when there is not point of return they realice that have a problem...

(english is my seccond lenguage sorry for the grammar )
1) Alcohol is a drug. If you have some substantive reason for separating it from other drugs, lay it out.

2) You are focusing on the addiction problem to the exclusion of the significant majority of people who use drugs are not addicts. More centrally, you have not responded to the question of why criminalizing drug use is a better response than one that develops institutions for dealing with the relevant harms.
 
Maybe if you mean Republican in the 1950s sense of the word, minus the racism. I have some libertarian tendencies, but the current Republican party is so wholly committed to being contra-factual that I can't ever see myself voting for one without first receiving the Phineas Gage treatment.

I completely understand. The Republicans reaching out to the southern racists in the mid-late 60s was unforgivable. And still entertaining them for votes is unforgivable. But it can't possibly last much longer or it will be the end of the Republican party. I can't wait until the racist element is rooted out. Can't stand the hardcore social conservatives either. They better change. I'm happy to see that Romney, for the most part, doesn't entertain the shit elements of the party.
 
So I see you've been brainwashed by the propaganda. Tell me then, in what ways are crack or heroin more dangerous than alcohol. I'm talking about pure heroin, too. The type of heroin that would be available if it were legal.

Son, what the fuck are you on about "brainwashed by the propoganda"?

I am an avid drug user. This weekend alone I've been on 3 different types of drugs (LSD, MDMA and 6-APB). I have 7 grams of coke hidden somewhere in my room and I've pretty much tried every drug thats come into my path.

Except crystal meth and heroin. I've also never smoked crack cocaine.

The closest I've been has been taking amphetamines as pure as they can go before it hits crystal meth levels. Although C.meth is more an American thing, not many take it over here.

The reason I won't touch smack or smoke crack is because, ever since I can remember, I've been around those kind of people who were addicted to them. I've seen beautiful girls turn into walking, rotting skeletons after one week of using heroin. I've seen people claim they were getting off heroin for like 8 years, only to substitute it constantly with a combination of methadone (heroin substitute), weed, valium and alcohol. Even with a combination of 4 different type of relaxants, I've never seen one smack junkie be satisfied with that because even all 4 of those together just don't give off a strong enough effect to simulate heroin. (For those reading who don't actually know what heroin is, imagine morphine, but a shit ton more powerful).

So when you say propoganda, I hope you mean real-life experiences because then I am definitely "brain-washed".
 
So how do you call them : Geniuses , smart people?

If someone have intelligence and a little of common sense wont try drugs.

The problem in U.S. society is that a lot of people see drugs like if they were candies and think they can control the use, they do not look themselves as adicts.. just as a occasional users and that is bullshit..
I bet you're voting pan or pri.
 

nyong

Banned
We lock up more people per capita than any country on the planet with the exception of North Korea. I'd love to ask a politician point-blank during a town hall meeting whether they believe that 46% of their country mates deserve to be behind bars facing a permanent criminal record, because that's the number of people who have tried illicit drugs.

It's indefensible.
 
Son, what the fuck are you on about "brainwashed by the propoganda"?

I am an avid drug user. This weekend alone I've been on 3 different types of drugs (LSD, MDMA and 6-APB). I have 7 grams of coke hidden somewhere in my room and I've pretty much tried every drug thats come into my path.

Except crystal meth and heroin. I've also never smoked crack cocaine.

The closest I've been has been taking amphetamines as pure as they can go before it hits crystal meth levels. Although C.meth is more an American thing, not many take it over here.

The reason I won't touch smack or smoke crack is because, ever since I can remember, I've been around those kind of people who were addicted to them. I've seen beautiful girls turn into walking, rotting skeletons after one week of using heroin. I've seen people claim they were getting off heroin for like 8 years, only to substitute it constantly with a combination of methadone (heroin substitute), weed, valium and alcohol. Even with a combination of 4 different type of relaxants, I've never seen one smack junkie be satisfied with that because even all 4 of those together just don't give off a strong enough effect to simulate heroin. (For those reading who don't actually know what heroin is, imagine morphine, but a shit ton more powerful).

So when you say propoganda, I hope you mean real-life experiences because then I am definitely "brain-washed".

Personal real-life experience is another word for anecdotal information, which in scientific literature, is worthless alone. I have seen a 40 year old woman (a friend of my father), after years of alcohol use, looking like a bald, crippled, 70 year old woman. She could barely walk. Only several years prior, she was a healthy, and even beautiful person. She is dead now. You are ignorant if you don't think that your narrow "anecdotal evidence" does not apply to alcohol, because it does. Research your shit. To say that "alcohol isn't as bad" is disgraceful. This is why anecdotal evidence in cases like these are worth shit, because one person can't see it all. And trust me, you've seen nothing if you think alcohol can't be as bad.
 

Chichikov

Member
The reason I won't touch smack or smoke crack is because, ever since I can remember, I've been around those kind of people who were addicted to them. I've seen beautiful girls turn into walking, rotting skeletons after one week of using heroin. I've seen people claim they were getting off heroin for like 8 years, only to substitute it constantly with a combination of methadone (heroin substitute), weed, valium and alcohol. Even with a combination of 4 different type of relaxants, I've never seen one smack junkie be satisfied with that because even all 4 of those together just don't give off a strong enough effect to simulate heroin. (For those reading who don't actually know what heroin is, imagine morphine, but a shit ton more powerful).

So when you say propoganda, I hope you mean real-life experiences because then I am definitely "brain-washed".
Heroin doesn't turn you into a walking skeleton, neither is crack.
These are mostly side-effects of being poor and malnourished (which obviously the are in large part because of the drug habit).
My point isn't "hey kids, let's do crack, it's fucking great!" but that the health risk from the drug itself (especially if clean) is not what the media and law enforcement make it up to be.
Same goes to addiction.
Most people don't get addicted very easily, and there's no drug out there that is as addictive as the media makes drugs in general (i.e. you take one hit and you're physically hooked for life).
 
So how do you call them : Geniuses , smart people?

If someone have intelligence and a little of common sense wont try drugs.

The problem in U.S. society is that a lot of people see drugs like if they were candies and think they can control the use, they do not look themselves as adicts.. just as a occasional users and that is bullshit..

there's nothing wrong with marijuana. it should be thought of as no worse than a few shots of hard liquor. in fact, it's less potent than that. I'm not entirely sure that cocaine has been given a fair shake either. Obviously it's a dangerous drug when abused, but so is 55% whiskey, etc. I dont know about meth though, that drug actually does scare me. I would never try it and if my kids ever tried it, I'd ring their necks.
 

-Eddman-

Member
Hehe...I am with Andres Manuel.... PAN-PRI = same shit.

Meh, Quadri Defense Force all the way, bitches!

Edit: lol, seriously though, I pity that poor guy. I'm still undecided between Cantinflas or Pedro Infante, or if I'm to vote for a real candidate, I guess it would be AMLO. I fucking despise PRD as a party, but they're making the less moronic campaign this time.
 
Heroin doesn't turn you into a walking skeleton, neither is crack.
These are mostly side-effects of being poor and malnourished (which obviously the are in large part because of the drug habit).
My point isn't "hey kids, let's do crack, it's fucking great!" but that the health risk from the drug itself (especially if clean) is not what the media and law enforcement make it up to be.
Same goes to addiction.
Most people don't get addicted very easily, and there's no drug out there that is as addictive as the media makes drugs in general (i.e. you take one hit and you're physically hooked for life).

This too. I was leaning to calling his story bullshit. Even with heroin use and malnourished, one week seems way too little to make such a difference. I'm sure it was longer than one week, possibly more drugs involved, and much more to the story than "Girl was using heroin for a week, turned into a skeleton". Reeks of BS to me. Heroin doesn't make you fast.
 

Chichikov

Member
This too. I was leaning to calling his story bullshit. Even with heroin use and malnourished, one week seems way too little to make such a difference. I'm sure it was longer than one week, possibly more drugs involved, and much more to the story than "Girl was using heroin for a week, turned into a skeleton". Reeks of BS to me. Heroin doesn't make you fast.
Oooh, I missed the one week part, yeah, that most certainly doesn't happen in real life.
I'll write it off as an exaggeration and move on.
 

Alebrije

Member
Also, your liver won't die. In fact you won't die at all. Beware of alcohol, now that shit is dangerous.

Alcohol is bad for sure , but it does not make less bad drugs like heroin/cocaine.

Is like think that if you are hit by a compact car and not by a truck you will end fine.

Why alcohol is legal and drugs no I really do not know maybe has to be with production control and where the big money goes at this moment.
 
Alcohol is bad for sure , but it does not make less bad drugs like heroin/cocaine.

Is like think that if you are hit by a compact car and not by a truck you will end fine.

Why alcohol is legal and drugs no I really do not know maybe has to be with production control and where the big money goes at this moment.
You just admitted to know shit about the topic. Stop pretending you do and smoke a doob, you might like it.
 

Alebrije

Member
You just admitted to know shit about the topic. Stop pretending you do and smoke a doob, you might like it.

Nop . I would end like :

tumblr_ljpobcshOo1qzptwgo1_400.gif
 
Alcohol is bad for sure , but it does not make less bad drugs like heroin/cocaine.

Is like think that if you are hit by a compact car and not by a truck you will end fine.

Why alcohol is legal and drugs no I really do not know maybe has to be with production control and where the big money goes at this moment.
Since you're not an American, I will give you the benefit of the doubt here:

The United States has trield to ban alcohol. It went badly.

We are repeating the mistake, and the effects are manifesting themselves in similar fashion, but on a larger and worse scale.

Don't say no one ever told you.
 

Wazzim

Banned
Death penalty for selling drugs and increased jail punishment for using them.

invest in troops that travel to these countries and take all those druglords out and burn their fields. keep doing it until there are no idiots left to take over the drug industry

That will fucking teach them.

How exactly do you want to do this? You can't just enter a foreign country and start destroying stuff and killing people.
 

Black-Box

Member
How exactly do you want to do this? You can't just enter a foreign country and start destroying stuff and killing people.

shoot something down from space, and act like it wasn't in your control and thought it would end up in the ocean instead of hitting land, so you didn't warn people
 
Personal real-life experience is another word for anecdotal information, which in scientific literature, is worthless alone. I have seen a 40 year old woman (a friend of my father), after years of alcohol use, looking like a bald, crippled, 70 year old woman. She could barely walk. Only several years prior, she was a healthy, and even beautiful person. She is dead now. You are ignorant if you don't think that your narrow "anecdotal evidence" does not apply to alcohol, because it does. Research your shit. To say that "alcohol isn't as bad" is disgraceful. This is why anecdotal evidence in cases like these are worth shit, because one person can't see it all. And trust me, you've seen nothing if you think alcohol can't be as bad.

I won't turn around and say alcohol isn't bad. However, I will still stand by the opinion that it isn't as bad. The amount of alcohol drunk compared to the amount of heroin inhaled or shot to cause that level of damage are totally different. As it stands at this point of time, you would reach that level much faster with heroin. Things might be different if the heroin was pure, but as with most drugs the purer it goes the higher the chance of overdosing. If it was legal and pure well, that brings me onto another point.

Heroin doesn't turn you into a walking skeleton, neither is crack.
These are mostly side-effects of being poor and malnourished (which obviously the are in large part because of the drug habit).
My point isn't "hey kids, let's do crack, it's fucking great!" but that the health risk from the drug itself (especially if clean) is not what the media and law enforcement make it up to be.
Same goes to addiction.
Most people don't get addicted very easily, and there's no drug out there that is as addictive as the media makes drugs in general (i.e. you take one hit and you're physically hooked for life).

Street drugs are priced the way they are for a reason, if say heroin or crack was legal but taxed through the eyeballs, it really wouldn't make a difference to addicts being poor. Drugs being more pure doesn't really stop addiction either, I will agree an addiction doesn't start at the first hit and being "hooked for life". It's more like a snowball and addiction creeps up without anyone knowing, the purer the drugs are, the more tolerant users will become which in turn will end up the users needing more, especially if they've reached that stage of addiction and having more taxes on it really won't help people in the end.

As for the girl I mentioned. Heroin is very potent for new users, they constantly feel very sick (and most of them are very sick to the point of puking). On top of that, try asking a heroin user to try swallow food without choking when they are gouching out their nuts, impossible. They become slim and their skin goes grey very quickly, no doubt she was also using other drugs, but those would have been other ones like weed, valium etc. Relaxants.

Normally, once heroin users have built up a tolerance to the drug, they can eat normally. By the point it's too late, the damage has been done and from what I've seen that damage is irreversible. Living with us for a year, my mum's ex was on heroin and eating the same amount of food as the rest of us. At no point did he go back to his original weight class nor did his skin go back to its normal colour less damaged. From the way I see it, that damage can't be caused by malnutrition alone. Whether it's the junk from illegal heroin or the heroin itself, fuck knows.

Also anecdotal information is not worthless. From your end I could be making this shit up, I get that. From my end, especially in a discussion like this, all the heroin & crack addicts that live near me (and trust me, there is a lot) are basically the same as living proof aka lab rats. I'm also not as close minded to say "well from what I saw a took b that caused c, so thats it end of story". However, it gives me a pretty good insight to whats going on that it gives me enough flexibility to assess the situation.
 
I won't turn around and say alcohol isn't bad. However, I will still stand by the opinion that it isn't as bad. The amount of alcohol drunk compared to the amount of heroin inhaled or shot to cause that level of damage are totally different. As it stands at this point of time, you would reach that level much faster with heroin.

Oh, you mean except for the fact that heroin isn't organ-damaging like alcohol is? The fact is, adulterants used in heroin are what cause organ damage. Pure heroin is physically safe, and opiods have long been used as treatment for pain. Opiods wouldn't be used for pain, if they damaged their own organs. So you are wrong on this one, again. You are right though, that adulterated street heroin can cause damage.

Street drugs are priced the way they are for a reason, if say heroin or crack was legal but taxed through the eyeballs, it really wouldn't make a difference to addicts being poor. Drugs being more pure doesn't really stop addiction either, I will agree an addiction doesn't start at the first hit and being "hooked for life". It's more like a snowball and addiction creeps up without anyone knowing, the purer the drugs are, the more tolerant users will become which in turn will end up the users needing more, especially if they've reached that stage of addiction and having more taxes on it really won't help people in the end.

As for the girl I mentioned. Heroin is very potent for new users, they constantly feel very sick (and most of them are very sick to the point of puking). On top of that, try asking a heroin user to try swallow food without choking when they are gouching out their nuts, impossible. They become slim and their skin goes grey very quickly, no doubt she was also using other drugs, but those would have been other ones like weed, valium etc. Relaxants.

So you admitted to other drugs. Now you only have to admit you lied about the time frame.

Normally, once heroin users have built up a tolerance to the drug, they can eat normally. By the point it's too late, the damage has been done and from what I've seen that damage is irreversible. Living with us for a year, my mum's ex was on heroin and eating the same amount of food as the rest of us. At no point did he go back to his original weight class nor did his skin go back to its normal colour less damaged. From the way I see it, that damage can't be caused by malnutrition alone. Whether it's the junk from illegal heroin or the heroin itself, fuck knows.

Also anecdotal information is not worthless. From your end I could be making this shit up, I get that. From my end, especially in a discussion like this, all the heroin & crack addicts that live near me (and trust me, there is a lot) are basically the same as living proof aka lab rats. I'm also not as close minded to say "well from what I saw a took b that caused c, so thats it end of story". However, it gives me a pretty good insight to whats going on that it gives me enough flexibility to assess the situation.

Again wrong when it comes to pure, unadulterated heroin. As it does not cause organ damage. Why is it so hard for you to admit alcohol is just as bad? You're wrong man. It's okay. Look at my previous post, when I talked about heroin I said pure heroin, the kind that would be available if legal. Of course street heroin can be organ damaging. And yes anecdotal is worthless. Not because I don't believe you, I can take every word you said as fact but it would still be worthless. Don't be so self-centered. I'll repeat myself: one person can't see it all.
 

Chichikov

Member
Street drugs are priced the way they are for a reason, if say heroin or crack was legal but taxed through the eyeballs, it really wouldn't make a difference to addicts being poor.
They are priced like that mostly because they're illegal.
But anyway, I was talking about their health risks, not the socio-economic impact a drug habit is going to have on a user.

Also, the junkies you see usually start poor.
I know many rich/middle class people who lived a long productive life with a long and unproductive drug habit (including opiates).

It's more like a snowball and addiction creeps up without anyone knowing, the purer the drugs are, the more tolerant users will become which in turn will end up the users needing more, especially if they've reached that stage of addiction and having more taxes on it really won't help people in the end.
The vast majority of people who use drugs, any drug, don't get addicted.
Maybe it's genetics, maybe it's just being smart enough to not end up like a crack whore, I don't know (and I don't think science fully know).

As for the girl I mentioned. Heroin is very potent for new users, they constantly feel very sick (and most of them are very sick to the point of puking). On top of that, try asking a heroin user to try swallow food without choking when they are gouching out their nuts, impossible. They become slim and their skin goes grey very quickly, no doubt she was also using other drugs, but those would have been other ones like weed, valium etc. Relaxants.

Normally, once heroin users have built up a tolerance to the drug, they can eat normally. By the point it's too late, the damage has been done and from what I've seen that damage is irreversible. Living with us for a year, my mum's ex was on heroin and eating the same amount of food as the rest of us. At no point did he go back to his original weight class nor did his skin go back to its normal colour less damaged. From the way I see it, that damage can't be caused by malnutrition alone. Whether it's the junk from illegal heroin or the heroin itself, fuck knows.

Also anecdotal information is not worthless. From your end I could be making this shit up, I get that. From my end, especially in a discussion like this, all the heroin & crack addicts that live near me (and trust me, there is a lot) are basically the same as living proof aka lab rats. I'm also not as close minded to say "well from what I saw a took b that caused c, so thats it end of story". However, it gives me a pretty good insight to whats going on that it gives me enough flexibility to assess the situation.
Okay dude, just stop.
I'm generally not trying to call up on people's bullshit, but you're just derailing the thread at this point.


If Heroin caused everyone to puke and constantly feel nausea NO ONE WOULD FUCKING DO IT.
People us it, because it feels very very very very good.
Very.

Also, even fasting for a week wouldn't turn you into a skeleton.
 
More ignorance.

Again, more people talking about things they don't know about. Alcohol is every bit of a hard drug as heroin and crack is. It is more internally damaging than either drug. It is also more associated to violence, particularly domestic violence than either. So before you make assumptions that, "alcohol isn't as bad" maybe you should do a little more research.

EDIT: Fixed the link

The propagation of alcohol and general availability and social use and acceptance colours every study. Yeah, it can be addictive and causes accidents and violence. Considering the incredibly vast numbers of people using the drug those numbers are incredibly low.

When it comes to the illegal hard drugs all I can speak for is the grisly scene I travel through a few times a year coupled with the addicts I see daily. No one wants to walk through Canada's poorest neighborhood. It makes my skin crawl watching near zombified people tweak out on the sidewalks and mainline into their arm.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
It makes my skin crawl watching near zombified people tweak out on the sidewalks and mainline into their arm.

Which makes me wish we could take the money wasted on locking up non-violent drug users who haven't committed any actual crimes, like, you know, theft, assault, murder, rape, extortion, etc. and funneling that money towards social services to help those zombified people get off the streets and into a wellness program.
 
If you tax the hell out of it, then you're still going to have the drug gangs selling it cheaper than the government does.

Just like the Mafia still makes a lot of money off of alcohol and cigarettes, because they are so heavily taxed in some places (like NYC)

To solve the problem, you need to take the huge profits out of it. Tax it a little, not so much that it's preferable to buy from a dealer than store.

Of course, that won't happen. Some states (again, NY) will tax the hell out of it simply because that's what they do.

I disagree, people will avoid drug dealers if they can get a nice clean supply of drugs that are legal. If anything prices will drop substantially because the production and quanitity of them will skyrocket, and the risk to produce and sell it will drop.

I'm all for the legalizing of drugs, mainly organic ones like peyote, shrooms, weed, etc.
 
Oh, you mean except for the fact that heroin isn't organ-damaging like alcohol is? The fact is, adulterants used in heroin are what cause organ damage. Pure heroin is physically safe, and opiods have long been used as treatment for pain. Opiods wouldn't be used for pain, if they damaged their own organs. So you are wrong on this one, again. You are right though, that adulterated street heroin can cause damage.

You discredit what I say for being anecdotal information, then follow that up with "A long time ago in the past Heroin has been used to kill pain. Firstly, when all that first came about, less was known about heroin than we know today, so that's void. Secondly, opoids are still used to treat pain, it's called morphine, it's less potent than heroin and does the job just fine minimising the risks involved. Thirdly, a practical use and recreational use are two different things. Do you honestly believe that your body being altered outside it's normal capacity on a daily basis does no damage at all? Just because the heroin is pure? So much of your body is affected by heroin, pure or unpure, the unpure adulterants just accelerate the damage. Also, like I mentioned before, the purer the heroin the bigger chance of overdosing is involved, especially as tolerance is built. So "physically safe heroin" is flat out bullshit.

So you admitted to other drugs. Now you only have to admit you lied about the time frame.

I said other drugs being involved is a very high possibility, I never said that it was actually the case, the only thing I know was that she was blasting a lot of heroin in a short space of time. Also a week is accurate.


Again wrong when it comes to pure, unadulterated heroin. As it does not cause organ damage. Why is it so hard for you to admit alcohol is just as bad? You're wrong man. It's okay. Look at my previous post, when I talked about heroin I said pure heroin, the kind that would be available if legal. Of course street heroin can be organ damaging. And yes anecdotal is worthless. Not because I don't believe you, I can take every word you said as fact but it would still be worthless. Don't be so self-centered. I'll repeat myself: one person can't see it all.

Organ damage, refer to above. As for "one man can't see it all". I never stated anything like that, you did. I'm actually the one being flexible and keeping my opinions open to discussion, you are not. So you're really referring to yourself i'm afraid.

They are priced like that mostly because they're illegal.
But anyway, I was talking about their health risks, not the socio-economic impact a drug habit is going to have on a user.

I won't really spend much time explaining myself with you unless you really wish for me to do so. Health-risks and 'socio-economic impact' are linked. That's why i said it

Also, the junkies you see usually start poor.

Uhm, poor but not in poverty and not always the case. It's the junkies you see that subject theirselves to poverty just to feel good.

I know many rich/middle class people who lived a long productive life with a long and unproductive drug habit (including opiates).

The "many" you know represent a small minority of the overall drug-culture

The vast majority of people who use drugs, any drug, don't get addicted.
Maybe it's genetics, maybe it's just being smart enough to not end up like a crack whore, I don't know (and I don't think science fully know).

You can't just bring "any drug" into this, all drugs are different with different levels of dependence. However, if the vast majority of say crack smokers, didn't become addicted then we wouldn't have that stereotype, would we?

Okay dude, just stop.
I'm generally not trying to call up on people's bullshit, but you're just derailing the thread at this point.

Whatever, right after here was when I lost all value in your opinion anyway because you obviously had no idea at all what you're talking about


If Heroin caused everyone to puke and constantly feel nausea NO ONE WOULD FUCKING DO IT.
People us it, because it feels very very very very good.
Very.

I know why people use it, i'm not a fucking idiot. If you read what I said again, I said people in the early stages of using heroin, become sick and nautious because they have no tolerance to it. This is actually true for pretty much everyone who starts using heroin. As my best mate explained it, he was sick everytime using it for upto about 2 weeks. Even though he was sick, the act of being sick felt good. Just because being sick felt good doesn't mean it doesn't have negative effects on the body. He was someone who lived with his mother in an upper-class neighbour hood, with sheltering and food and lost weight rapidly aswell. Which brings me onto this next part.

Also, even fasting for a week wouldn't turn you into a skeleton.

Fasting for a week, no. Using heroin, yes. I'm talking about damage to the body not just the act of "not eating and being sick"

Bolded parts are mine.
 
Bolded parts are mine.

1. Heroin IS virtually morphine. It is a morphine molecule attached to two acetyl groups. The sole purpose of these acetyl groups are to pass the blood-brain barrier rapidly and easily. This allow for the more intense rush associated with heroin. In the brain it is deacetylated into morphine, which is the active compound. Again, the only difference between heroin and morphine is that heroin gets morphine into the brain quicker and more efficiently.

Even the government's own site says that it is the adulterants that cause organ damage:

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...-are-medical-complications-chronic-heroin-use

Here, we have a rehab site that says heroin itself does not cause organ damage:
http://alcoholrehab.com/alcohol-rehab/heroin-addiction/

Heroin itself has relatively few serious side effects which means that chronic use does not produce organ damage in the same way as alcohol or other drugs. Issues arise from the way the drug is administered, the influence of adulterant substances and the potency/purity of the drug that is bought on the streets.

Also, heroin withdrawal isn't considered lethal, but alcohol withdrawal can be. I'll be waiting for you to continue to call this bullshit, when rehabilitation sites and the government itself claims the physical damage comes from adulterants. Go ahead, call them liars.

2. So in other words, you aren't even sure of what happened. For you to be pushing so hard for an anecdotal experience, you sure don't even know anything about it. Geez man. At least pretend to seem unbiased.

3. For you to say that alcohol isn't as bad because your experiences did not turn out that way, is self-centered. I've looked at all the evidence already.
 

Chichikov

Member
Bolded parts are mine.
So you're doubling down on the bullshit?
Fine.

Free advice though - everyone post stupid or just plain wrong shit on forums, it's the idea that you have to defend every letter that came out of your keyboard that get people into trouble.

I'm not looking for a fight though, not today.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
The real question isn't whether drugs are bad or good, its how effective are our present methods of control.

To which the obvious, undeniable answer is they don't work, at all.

Availability isn't and never has been a problem, and criminalizing people for usage isn't a deterrent or a solution.

The demand isn't going away; and at some point it needs to be recognized that although these substances aren't socially desirable, we need a better strategy for managing them than we have employed in the past.
 
1. Heroin IS virtually morphine. It is a morphine molecule attached to two acetyl groups. The sole purpose of these acetyl groups are to pass the blood-brain barrier rapidly and easily. This allow for the more intense rush associated with heroin. In the brain it is deacetylated into morphine, which is the active compound. Again, the only difference between heroin and morphine is that heroin gets morphine into the brain quicker and more efficiently.

Uh-huh, okay, that still backs up what I said though, morphine not made into heroin is a more controlled substance.

Even the government's own site says that it is the adulterants that cause organ damage:

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...-are-medical-complications-chronic-heroin-use

Actually no it doesn't the first paragraph in that link comes into two parts. Chronic heroin injection + problems. Then street additives + problems.

Here, we have a rehab site that says heroin itself does not cause organ damage:
http://alcoholrehab.com/alcohol-rehab/heroin-addiction/

Heroin itself has relatively few serious side effects which means that chronic use does not produce organ damage in the same way as alcohol or other drugs. Issues arise from the way the drug is administered, the influence of adulterant substances and the potency/purity of the drug that is bought on the streets.

Where to start on this. "Does not produce organ damage in the same way as other drugs" - It doesn't say that heroin itself doesn't cause organ damage. Then you notice it says, "relatively few serious side effects" - so it's relative to what? Other drugs? Well thats because heroin is different to all other illegal drugs known, where as a lot of the other drugs actually produce similar effects on the body. So it might be "relatively few", it doesn't discredit that the actual heroin itself can cause serious damage, which is backed up by the part that says "potency/purity of the drug bought on the street". The problem with potency on the streets is that, you never know how strong it can be. However, with any drug, if it can cause serious problems, then the purer the drug goes, the chance of causing problems increases. So your point of making heroin legal so that we can make it pure to help reduce complications, doesn't really stand up.

I will agree to the point that adulterations cause a lot more damage than having heroin without adulterations would.


Also, heroin withdrawal isn't considered lethal, but alcohol withdrawal can be. I'll be waiting for you to continue to call this bullshit, when rehabilitation sites and the government itself claims the physical damage comes from adulterants. Go ahead, call them liars.

2. So in other words, you aren't even sure of what happened. For you to be pushing so hard for an anecdotal experience, you sure don't even know anything about it. Geez man. At least pretend to seem unbiased.

Right forget that woman, ffs, I'm sorry I used her as an example.

3. For you to say that alcohol isn't as bad because your experiences did not turn out that way, is self-centered. I've looked at all the evidence already.

Actually i'm pretty sure I said "alcohol does cause serious damage. As does heroin, but getting to serious damage cause by heroin would be approachable much faster than alcohol".

So you're doubling down on the bullshit?
Fine.

Free advice though - everyone post stupid or just plain wrong shit on forums, it's the idea that you have to defend every letter that came out of your keyboard that get people into trouble.

I'm not looking for a fight though, not today.

Whatever, man.

Anyway for the both of you. I'm all for drug use, as I said before, so if I could, without a doubt turn around and advocate heroin, I would. Until I am presented with 100% irrefutable evidence, that won't be happening.
 
Whatever, man.

Anyway for the both of you. I'm all for drug use, as I said before, so if I could, without a doubt turn around and advocate heroin, I would. Until I am presented with 100% irrefutable evidence, that won't be happening.

It's cool. I mean it's obvious you don't give a shit about evidence, but at least you're pretending to. Clearly you don't even know the mechanisms of action for heroin, otherwise you'd know that if morphine doesn't cause organ damage, heroin doesn't. You already have a link that says alcohol causes organ damage, while the organ damage associated with heroin comes from adulteration.
 
Whatever, man.

Anyway for the both of you. I'm all for drug use, as I said before, so if I could, without a doubt turn around and advocate heroin, I would. Until I am presented with 100% irrefutable evidence, that won't be happening.

In the meantime, maybe you can snort up those grams of blow hidden in your room somewhere.
 
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