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[Silphonica]

It's cool. I mean it's obvious you don't give a shit about evidence, but at least you're pretending to. Clearly you don't even know the mechanisms of action for heroin, otherwise you'd know that if morphine doesn't cause organ damage, heroin doesn't. You already have a link that says alcohol causes organ damage, while the organ damage associated with heroin comes from adulteration.

Heroin and alcohol cause organ damage in different ways. It's really foolish to assume that your body not operating normally for extended periods of time won't cause damage.

Let's examine your evidence taken directly from the government's own drug abuse website.

Medical consequences of chronic heroin injection use include scarred and/or collapsed veins, bacterial infections of the blood vessels and heart valves, abscesses (boils) and other soft-tissue infections, and liver or kidney disease. Lung complications (including various types of pneumonia and tuberculosis) may result from the poor health condition of the abuser as well as from [bb]heroin's depressing effects on respiration[/b].

It then goes onto say...

Many of the additives in street heroin may include substances that do not readily dissolve and result in clogging the blood vessels that lead to the lungs, liver, kidneys, or brain. This can cause infection or even death of small patches of cells in vital organs. Immune reactions to these or other contaminants can cause arthritis or other rheumatologic problems.

As you can see, two different things.

 

[SirChained]

Heroin and alcohol cause organ damage in different ways. It's really foolish to assume that your body not operating normally for extended periods of time won't cause damage.

Let's examine your evidence taken directly from the government's own drug abuse website.



As you can see, two different things.

It's not about causing organ damage in different ways, it's that one directly causes organ damage, while the other (heroin) doesn't. I've shown you the links and the excerpt you're pointing to is referring to improper administration. Yes, if you are not careful when shooting up, it can be easy to collapse a vein, and it is not rare among heroin users. But again, this is not directly caused by the heroin, but by improper, chronic use.

Opiods themselves do not cause organ damage. This is an established fact.

http://www.promotingexcellence.org/downloads/jacs_0203.pdf

Opioids do not damage organs

Opioids at any dose do not cause visceral organ damage.1
This cannot be said of any other analgesic drug group.

The dose-limiting factor in opioid use is
not the risk of organ damage, but the development of
intractable side effects, such as nausea, vomiting,

Not sure how many links you want, for it to be "irrefutable evidence" but I can tell you an objective person would realize it by now, and not rely on faulty anecdotal evidence.

 

[Silphonica]

It's not about causing organ damage in different ways, it's that one directly causes organ damage, while the other (heroin) doesn't. I've shown you the links and the excerpt you're pointing to is referring to improper administration. Yes, if you are not careful when shooting up, it can be easy to collapse a vein, and it is not rare among heroin users. But again, this is not directly caused by the heroin, but by improper, chronic use.

Opiods themselves do not cause organ damage. This is an established fact.

http://www.promotingexcellence.org/downloads/jacs_0203.pdf

Opioids do not damage organs

Opioids at any dose do not cause visceral organ damage.1
This cannot be said of any other analgesic drug group.

The dose-limiting factor in opioid use is
not the risk of organ damage, but the development of
intractable side effects, such as nausea, vomiting,

Not sure how many links you want, for it to be "irrefutable evidence" but I can tell you an objective person would realize it by now, and not rely on faulty anecdotal evidence.

Okay, i've been articulating my point improperly. Let me do so with the new link you've posted. Like I said, it doesn't cause problems in the same way as alcohol (which is toxic to the body). When you expand the quote you posted.

The dose-limiting factor in opioid use is
not the risk of organ damage, but the development of
intractable side effects, such as nausea, vomiting, somnolence, myoclonus, and cognitive failure, all of which
are reversible with dose reductions or rotation to alternative opioids or use of adjuvant medications. There is a
recent report describing hypogonadism in patients on
longterm opioids.

You have to remember, this link is talking about use with doctors not the use of people self-medicating for recreational purposes and dealing with addiction. That's not to say heroin itself doesn't have toxic properties.

Opioids are potent,
versatile, and safe (except for meperidine and propoxyphene, which have toxic metabolites),

Which can be controlled with it being made illegal.

but they are frequently underused in patients with chronic pain, such as
cancer patients, who are commonly seen in a surgical
practice.

Like I said though, heroin itself is highly addictive and long-term use does cause problems. Even if heroin was legal and pure, you can't control people over-using it. Which again means I stand by the point that, the use of heroin will cause serious damage much faster than alcohol. Because people themselves can't control the addiction once it's started and they never see it coming.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'm all in favour of legalizing drugs, but I hope we don't end up with a bunch of potheads walking on the streets all the time. It's already bad enough with smartphones and trying to have a decent conversation with someone. Hanging out with someone that's high and you aren't isn't fun at all.

 

[SapientWolf]

Heroin has a much, much stronger euphoric effect than alcohol. That alone makes it more prone to abuse. There are stories about people in Russia doing Krokodil to chase a heroin high when they can't afford the real thing. They literally rot to death but they keep using.

That's why I don't think hard drugs like crack, meth and heroin will ever be socially acceptable to sell, even if they don't criminalize their use.

 

[Silphonica]

Heroin has a much, much stronger euphoric effect than alcohol. That alone makes it more prone to abuse. There are stories about people in Russia doing Krokodil to chase a heroin high when they can't afford the real thing. They literally rot to death but they keep using.

That's why I don't think hard drugs like crack, meth and heroin will ever be socially acceptable to sell, even if they don't criminalize their use.

Your life expectancy drops to like "you'll be dead within a year" on krokodil. Insanely fucked up.

 

[frankie_baby]

Heroin has a much, much stronger euphoric effect than alcohol. That alone makes it more prone to abuse. There are stories about people in Russia doing Krokodil to chase a heroin high when they can't afford the real thing. They literally rot to death but they keep using.

That's why I don't think hard drugs like crack, meth and heroin will ever be socially acceptable to sell, even if they don't criminalize their use.

But if heroin was legal and not at illegal inflated prices i doubt many people would be driven to shit like crocodile

 

[Snakeyes]

And as to the claim that it's done nothing to improve society: many of history's most important contributors to science and culture have used some kind of drug or another.

Oh, come on. I'm all for controlled legalization but this argument is complete nonsense. For every one of your important contributors you've got thousands of average drug users that never discovered anything of note.

 

[frankie_baby]

Oh, come on. I'm all for controlled legalization but this argument is complete nonsense. For every one of your important contributors you've got thousands of average drug users that never discovered anything of note.

There's thousands of non drug users that havent discovered anything of note too, though i would guess that drug users overall have contributed more to society than people that dont

 

[SirChained]

Okay, i've been articulating my point improperly. Let me do so with the new link you've posted. Like I said, it doesn't cause problems in the same way as alcohol (which is toxic to the body). When you expand the quote you posted.



You have to remember, this link is talking about use with doctors not the use of people self-medicating for recreational purposes and dealing with addiction. That's not to say heroin itself doesn't have toxic properties.

Opioids are potent,
versatile, and safe (except for meperidine and propoxyphene, which have toxic metabolites),

Which can be controlled with it being made illegal.

but they are frequently underused in patients with chronic pain, such as
cancer patients, who are commonly seen in a surgical
practice.

Like I said though, heroin itself is highly addictive and long-term use does cause problems. Even if heroin was legal and pure, you can't control people over-using it. Which again means I stand by the point that, the use of heroin will cause serious damage much faster than alcohol. Because people themselves can't control the addiction once it's started and they never see it coming.

Going from "heroin DOES cause organ damage" to "Heroin is highly addictive and long-term use does cause problems" isn't a problem of articulation. I'm glad to see you are finally changing your stance, though. As strong as that denial to admit wrongness may be.

Your life expectancy drops to like "you'll be dead within a year" on krokodil. Insanely fucked up.

One thing I can agree with you. That shit is straight-up poison. Shit is cut with red phosphorus and other nasty messes.

 

[Snakeyes]

There's thousands of non drug users that havent discovered anything of note too, though i would guess that drug users overall have contributed more to society than people that dont

Sure, if tobacco and alcohol count.

 

[SapientWolf]

But if heroin was legal and not at illegal inflated prices i doubt many people would be driven to shit like crocodile

Who's to say that the people slinging it legally won't inflate the prices? And they probably should, because cheap, legal, easily available heroin is also a sociopolitical nightmare.

 

[SirChained]

Who's to say that the people slinging it legally won't inflate the prices? And they probably should, because cheap, legal, easily available heroin is also a sociopolitical nightmare.

Every drug policy, no matter what it is will result in nightmarish drug abuse.

 

[SapientWolf]

Every drug policy, no matter what it is will result in nightmarish drug abuse.

Federal sanctioned drug abuse that corporations get to profit from has some wider ramifications to it.

 

[I_D]

Every drug policy, no matter what it is will result in nightmarish drug abuse.

Photo ID required, no prior felonies, 21+ years of age, no open containers in public, no usage in public, no intoxication in public, no driving intoxicated, etc. Just like alcohol.

Alcohol abuse exists, but it's not nightmarish by any means.
Think of it this way: If heroin was legal, you still wouldn't do it, right?

And to those who cite side effects as some reason for illegality, tons of legal drugs have horrendous side effects. The point is to use responsibly, not chronically. It says so right in the damn commercials.

Who's to say that the people slinging it legally won't inflate the prices? And they probably should, because cheap, legal, easily available heroin is also a sociopolitical nightmare.

Because, unlike tobacco, some drugs have more uses than just giving you cancer. Hemp, for example, would be useful for many industries.
Also, because even highly-taxed, mass-produced, drugs would be cheaper than hidden private businesses.

 

[frankie_baby]

Photo ID required, no prior felonies, 21+ years of age, no open containers in public, no usage in public, no intoxication in public, no driving intoxicated, etc. Just like alcohol.

Alcohol abuse exists, but it's not nightmarish by any means.
Think of it this way: If heroin was legal, you still wouldn't do it, right?

And to those who cite side effects as some reason for illegality, tons of legal drugs have horrendous side effects. The point is to use responsibly, not chronically. It says so right in the damn commercials.

I know america has the weird age restriction for booze but some of the other restrictions?

 

[frankie_baby]

Who's to say that the people slinging it legally won't inflate the prices? And they probably should, because cheap, legal, easily available heroin is also a sociopolitical nightmare.

The worst effect on society from heroin is people commiting crimes to pay to feed an overly inflated price habbit

 

[SirChained]

Photo ID required, no prior felonies, 21+ years of age, no open containers in public, no usage in public, no intoxication in public, no driving intoxicated, etc. Just like alcohol.

Alcohol abuse exists, but it's not nightmarish by any means.
Think of it this way: If heroin was legal, you still wouldn't do it, right?

Alcohol abuse is definitely nightmarish, I don't know what you're going on about. Any abuse of any serious drug is nightmarish. And since when is "no prior felonies" a criteria for alcohol consumption?

 

[I_D]

I know america has the weird age restriction for booze but some of the other restrictions?

Apparently the felony thing is wrong. I dunno where I heard that; I'm not a felon so it doesn't really come to mind often.

The "in public" stuff just means between businesses, public buildings, roads, etc. You can drink outdoors on private or licensed business property.

Alcohol abuse is definitely nightmarish, I don't know what you're going on about. Any abuse of any serious drug is nightmarish. And since when is "no prior felonies" a criteria for alcohol consumption?

It's definitely a personal and physical nightmare. I thought you meant statistically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism says "The World Health Organization estimates that there are 140 million people with alcoholism worldwide" which isn't really a nightmare.
Also, the definition of "alcoholism" is extremely suspect, so those numbers are probably off.

Driving accidents are closely linked to alcohol, this is definitely true. But I've always argued that using drugs responsibly is the way to go. Think of how many more patrol cars we could afford if all the stoners weren't in prison.

 

[frankie_baby]

Apparently the felony thing is wrong. I dunno where I heard that; I'm not a felon so it doesn't really come to mind often.

The "in public" stuff just means between businesses, public buildings, roads, etc. You can drink outdoors on private or licensed business property.

So you cant like drink in a park or something? And you cant be intoxicated in public?