We feel that Vi, Hecarim and Shaco have the potential to delete attack damage carries without much counter-play, therefore we have nerfed their overall AD scaling.
---> Loses 5 AD by level 18
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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
---> Loses 5 AD by level 18
PhillipCostigan
Member
Since I wrote that Lulu patch note I can give you some insight (or rather rewrote what was there)
The buff will give solo lane and support Lulu more offensive power by allowing her to use her Q more often in lane and increase Pix's damage.
We're not going to give Lulu her pushing power back because Lulu was straight up fucking bullshit in a solo lane with it. Lulu had 0 weaknesses whatsoever. If you want to play her in a solo lane, you need to trade some of the power that a mid with strong wave clear has because you're getting far more utility than any other mid.
Like as much as you want her to be able to wave clear that doesn't mean she should.
The buff will give solo lane and support Lulu more offensive power by allowing her to use her Q more often in lane and increase Pix's damage.
We're not going to give Lulu her pushing power back because Lulu was straight up fucking bullshit in a solo lane with it. Lulu had 0 weaknesses whatsoever. If you want to play her in a solo lane, you need to trade some of the power that a mid with strong wave clear has because you're getting far more utility than any other mid.
Like as much as you want her to be able to wave clear that doesn't mean she should.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
see costy we agree on one thing
lulu in her previous state of power was cancerous af
Point and click champions like Lulu, Malphite and Annie just aren't fun and I feel Riot is basically killing off those kinda of kits one at a time.
The first victims were like Sion and Taric.
I remember when solo lane Lulu could just run up and E + Q you and you would lose like a quarter of your health. Then if you tried to fight back, she would silence you with W.
The first victims were like Sion and Taric.
I remember when solo lane Lulu could just run up and E + Q you and you would lose like a quarter of your health. Then if you tried to fight back, she would silence you with W.
PhillipCostigan
Member
also in regards to Katarina, Gunblade is also getting nerfed (her core item)
initially i was actually positive on the q changes cos i figured the numbers wouldn't be THAT bad and i thought focusing on utility was a good direction for lulu, but when i found myself farming under turret against katarina it was just apparent that they just went and olaf'd her
there are no midlaners without waveclear, that's just not how it works, every mid laner gives up something for their waveclear, because that's the one thing you need to be allowed to be played
mid lane lulu already had strong tradeoffs cos she fell off the end of the earth in dmg compared to any other midlaner. she was deservedly nerfed like 60 times to make sure of it
and since u wrote it here's some constructive criticism. using the word solved is like throwing salt in the wound considering the state the 'solving' nerf left lulu as solo laner. i'm not disagreeing with the argument that she was overly safe or that she was very unhealthy at a time, but the time she was nerfed wasn't that time and saying "solved" reads like an euphemism
PhillipCostigan
Member
She falls off as a solo laner because at that point her damage is ancillary. The massive increases to her utility and her ability to enable her carries is the attraction of Lulu in the late game.
Endlessly pushing waves without any punishment for it considering how safe she is and what she provides to the team isn't ok. She doesn't get to be Viktor as well as a utility god.
That barely scratches her, she'll still be 100% ban.
I think she's worse. I'd much rather play against a Leblanc than a Kat. Kat's my permaban atm
PhillipCostigan
Member
I think some consideration also needs to be given to how non-interactive that lane was as well. Lulu pushes and pokes, and if you go aggro on her she polymorphs you or shields herself and speeds away, and goes back to poking your ass through the minion wave while clearing it at the same time.
Sorry but that crap was not acceptable. The playing against case at the time of solo lane Lulu was the type of shit that made you want to uninstall. And let's not even talk about the days of Lulu top vs melees. I'd rather poke my eyes out.
Sorry but that crap was not acceptable. The playing against case at the time of solo lane Lulu was the type of shit that made you want to uninstall. And let's not even talk about the days of Lulu top vs melees. I'd rather poke my eyes out.
Tbh, I don't see the point of playing ADC right now unless you're a dedicated ADC main.
they're both past the point where it matters who's stupidest
both of them need big nerfs
lulu q is very on par with other midlaners (actually higher cd and weaker ratio), the endlessly pushing waves part is a toplane thing and she was never played top lane anymore
why not nerf her w and e mana costs or add scaling cooldowns to e if you want her to be less safe instead of deleting her from the game?
you can't argue that mid lulu was 'solved', she doesn't even register on champion.gg cos no one ever plays her
both of them need big nerfs
she wasn't endlessly pushing waves, glitterlance deals 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 50% AP) on a 7s cd
lulu q is very on par with other midlaners (actually higher cd and weaker ratio), the endlessly pushing waves part is a toplane thing and she was never played top lane anymore
why not nerf her w and e mana costs or add scaling cooldowns to e if you want her to be less safe instead of deleting her from the game?
you can't argue that mid lulu was 'solved', she doesn't even register on champion.gg cos no one ever plays her
i think they're chipping away a bit right now, big nerfs will come later
Stone Ocean
Member
Jesus Christ Riot artists you art demons
Also "Assassin's mode" so regular League of Legends for ADCs? 4Head
BreezyLimbo
Banned
despite some the wording around lulu overall 7.2 seems like a good patch
good nerfs all around, even tho i don't get why courage of the colossus needs to have an even higher ceiling when it's giving like 1k shield already, but other than that it seems like they're slowly addressing the most pressing issues
i don't like buffs to master yi or akali but it's more me not liking those champions than they not needing the buffs
and there's a lot of champions conspicuously needing big nerfs like malzahar, leblanc, rengar, shaco, etc., but i'm sure they'll get to those eventually
also this is a very welcome addition
good nerfs all around, even tho i don't get why courage of the colossus needs to have an even higher ceiling when it's giving like 1k shield already, but other than that it seems like they're slowly addressing the most pressing issues
i don't like buffs to master yi or akali but it's more me not liking those champions than they not needing the buffs
and there's a lot of champions conspicuously needing big nerfs like malzahar, leblanc, rengar, shaco, etc., but i'm sure they'll get to those eventually
also this is a very welcome addition
BreezyLimbo
Banned
What are we gonna do with you...
true. I need to stick to support
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Can't make the Friday inhouse?
they're on a 2 week cadence, can't get to all that fast
saying stuff like LEBLANC AND KATARINA NEED NERFS isn't really doing anything, riot already knows this, they just gotta figure out the right nerf
it takes time to figure out you need to lower katarina's e ad scaling by 0.15 lol
oh breezy...
Stone Ocean
Member
JAYCE NERFS YESS
I was going to keep
opcorn: but I feel like this is missing a good portion of the point of trimming away at Kat builds that were AD-centric. Or, rather, basically targeting the Longsword start build (and some AD runes setups) that is, yes, "click on the opponent a bunch" in the end. It's a ~20-30 damage nerf on her L2-L3 all-in and some trim on the Shunpo poke. The Gunblade change is probably not enough to unseat it from a rush item but just making it not enough to win things for her.Ultimately, a fed Katarina is still a fed Katarina despite the change. This is more to see if it's harder to get fed in the first place than making her less oppressive when going off.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I always work fridays
yea that was more meant as a jokeI was going to keep
Ultimately, a fed Katarina is still a fed Katarina despite the change. This is more to see if it's harder to get fed in the first place than making her less oppressive when going off.
like i said many times before, they're probably zeroing on the right nerf and this is something that was also necessary cos of excess power or whatever
edit: i still feel like if they don't acknowledge that real nerfs are coming then they're risking that reaction from people with less patience than me. i like it when they're a lot more open with the whole "yea we know camille's busted, but we haven't figured the big nerf yet, so in the meantime we're trimming away this excess thing". like the note on kat made it sound like this shunpo nerf was gonna make her balance and that's just not right
Samuraicop
Member
That Diana skin got me like
Who?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I think he's some guy who has a crow fetish
He's weird. I always see him at the park, mumbling about "dispatching worms" and "dawdling". I'm pretty sure he's homeless.
Maybe? I feel like it's less a case of "We know we're doing more" in this case and closer to "We think she popped off too easily so we're stopping that and then reassessing." Dark Seal starts lost not as much but they were already weaker / more passive starts and less likely to snowball; LS start lost a lot of the "You actually auto-lose" that it carried.
I do agree it's probably likely they go back to her and target AP related things, just that I get specifically what an AD nerf here is targeting and it's honestly a lot bigger than some like -5 or -10 damage to a base damage or any AP scaling would do.
then it would be nice if the patchnotes actually talked about targeting longsword starts with the nerfs
i think i've actually never seen the ls start, but i don't have that much experience playing against nu kat since she's in permaban status and in the faker vs jin air game he starts dark seal
so eh ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Peanut Butter
Member
Probably the best splash in months. Not saying much since they've been lacking as of late.
Undeserved champ tho.
Because Riot Games. But hey at least Swain can have a built-in Doran passive. That sweet 9 mana per unit!
Undeserved champ tho.
Because Riot Games. But hey at least Swain can have a built-in Doran passive. That sweet 9 mana per unit!
Sr Kitsune
Member
I have been thinking that there should be an Omega skin line.
Omega squad of yordles. (Do we have a skin line for Yordles?)
Omega squad of yordles. (Do we have a skin line for Yordles?)
The foreword at the start references the Kat, and Darius, changes are specifically for their early game dominance. Outside of fringe things like red pot starts, do they ever really mention specific item starts? Like, Doran Ring GP or something when it comes to specific changes?
i think i've actually never seen the ls start, but i don't have that much experience playing against nu kat since she's in permaban status and in the faker vs jin air game he starts dark seal
so eh ¯\_(ツ
DS is the safer start since it's going to put an extra bit of poke before all-in for the pattern and you get a bit more regen with less certainty in snowballing. Which is part of my point, probably, since he played a sort of safe early lane (to an early death too) into LSLS and doesn't actually go off from early lane so much as everything after that.
There's a lot to be said about her Level 3 all-in that's not really a dagger lead-in play as well (E->WAAQ->EAA->EAA), hence all the wording about repeatedly clicking on dudes in the early game.
See you next week.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Stone Ocean
Member
She's losing like 30~40 damage on her level 3 cheese. It's not enough to put Kat in line but it's certainly not meaningless.