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[Horse Detective]

How important are runes?

I have some IP saved up, and whenever I consider buying them, I remember how minimal the effects seem.

 

[Boken]

wait for lvl 20

 

[zkylon]

How important are runes?

I have some IP saved up, and whenever I consider buying them, I remember how minimal the effects seem.

Very important early on, not so much later (with some exceptions).

Say you get 15 extra AP from flat AP quints, on Lux's Q that's an extra 10 damage to the base 60. It's 15% more damage, it's a lot. If you add 9 mpen marks then you can bump that up to, say, 20%.

Etc.

And yeah don't buy anything before level 20.

 

[Schmattakopf]

The reason for 20 is because that's when you can buy real runes (Tier 3). There's no use in buying Tier 1 or 2.

Runes are important, necessary even, in matches where everyone is level 30, but you don't need to worry about them until then.

 

[scy]

I just checked, it was like this:

    Lux | Kayle
AD  56  | 59
AP  17  | 23
AR  12  | 37
MR  42  | 43

First I'm weirded out why she beats me on every single stat, but maybe Kayle's got better base stats than Lux. Second, I guess the damage mostly comes from my low armor, but normal adcs like Ashe start out with armor pen, extra AD and they don't hurt that much.

Like I said, I feel like I have shittier runes than anyone else, or something.

ADCs tend to have lower than normal base AD (for instance, Kayle has 7 more base AD than Ashe). Kayle's E is bonus damage on hit as well (+20 at Rank 1). Kayle's Passive is percent shred per hit so there's that as well.

 

[Leezard]

I'd say tier 1 runes are quite ok for their price. You gain most of the effects for a tenth of the RP price. I ran tier 1 runes until I could afford to upgrade to full sets of tier 3 runes. Tier 2 runes are completely useless, though.

 

[zkylon]

ADCs tend to have lower than normal base AD (for instance, Kayle has 7 more base AD than Ashe). Kayle's E is bonus damage on hit as well (+20 at Rank 1). Kayle's Passive is percent shred per hit so there's that as well.

Went back again. First autoattack took 75 damage, second one 94.

What. The. Fuck.

Seriously, talk about broken.

edit: guy was running standard AP 21 0 9 masteries and AP quints, mpen reds, armor yellows and mr blues.

 

[Diprosalic]

runes are BS. the absolutely worst part about LoL.

 

[dimb]

runes are BS. the absolutely worst part about LoL.

They create a lot of options.

 

[zkylon]

They create a lot of options.

They would if they were cheaper. Rune pages too.

 

[percephone]

And yeah don't buy anything before level 20.

Unless you're jungling. IMHO

 

[Blergmeister]

They create a lot of options.

Options that you don't have access to due to the huge IP sink for both Runes and the pages to use them on!

 

[dimb]

Options that you don't have access to due to the huge IP sink for both Runes and the pages to use them on!

may b u guis shud ply mor games.

 

[percephone]

Options that you don't have access to due to the huge IP sink for both Runes and the pages to use them on!

RP runepages bundle OP?

 

[scy]

Went back again. First autoattack took 75 damage, second one 94.

What. The. Fuck.

Seriously, talk about broken.

edit: guy was running standard AP 21 0 9 masteries and AP quints, mpen reds, armor yellows and mr blues.

Q/E + Passive + 2x Autos from Lux is 200-ish (~192?) Damage. You have 25 more range (525 on Kayle with her E up) and she cannot safely farm when her E is down. It's a 10 second duration on a 16 second cooldown so there's a fairly sizable "I have freedom to do what I want" period.

 

[Cathcart]

If you are new enough to the game or just play so infrequently that you can't afford a few basic sets of runes then I agree that runes aren't all that important.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Went back again. First autoattack took 75 damage, second one 94.

What. The. Fuck.

Seriously, talk about broken.

edit: guy was running standard AP 21 0 9 masteries and AP quints, mpen reds, armor yellows and mr blues.

Well yeah. 59 AD + 20(+ ~10) magic damage with E active and she reduces your armour and MR by 3% for the next attack and so on.

 

[Blergmeister]

RP runepages bundle OP?

IP OP!

 

[zkylon]

Q/E + Passive + 2x Autos from Lux is 200-ish (~192?) Damage. You have 25 more range (525 on Kayle with her E up) and she cannot safely farm when her E is down. It's a 10 second duration on a 16 second cooldown so there's a fairly sizable "I have freedom to do what I want" period.

Yeah but you have to land a skillshot and do three autoattacks in a row which is a very risk-reward thing on Lux since you're giving up your range for the extra damage.

Kayle is just E and tons of damage. I guess lesson learned, next I'm against a Kayle mid I'll start a cloth armor+ 5 pots.

And as of now Kayle mid is the cherry on top of my derpy team of stupidly powerful (not necessarily OP tho): Garen, Xin, Kayle, MF and Taric.

I'd like a better champion for top, though.

Well yeah. 59 AD + 20(+ ~10) magic damage with E active and she reduces your armour and MR by 3% for the next attack and so on.

Yeah, I wasn't prepared for such a high AD damage. I'm sure if I were running my armor rune page it'd be a bit better.

I feel from this that Kayle is in need of a nerf though. I don't know which but she has top laner base stats and mid laner level scaling plus ridiculous utility with barely any actual skill required.

 

[dimb]

I'd like a better champion for top, though.

Champions to consider: Sion

 

[scy]

Yeah but you have to land a skillshot and do three autoattacks in a row which is a very risk-reward thing on Lux since you're giving up your range for the extra damage.

Two auto attacks. And both of which are outside of Kayle's range (550 v 125/525 with E).

Kayle is just E and tons of damage. I guess lesson learned, next I'm against a Kayle mid I'll start a cloth armor+ 5 pots.

What were you starting anyway? Just run pots and outrange her. I'm feeling you're more just not familiar with Kayle rather than anything about Kayle being really good (which she is, mind you, but still).

This is also where I note that almost every Kayle builds AP/ASPD, not AD, so I'm not sure what the Cloth Armor really accomplishes here.

Yeah, I wasn't prepared for such a high AD damage. I'm sure if I were running my armor rune page it'd be a bit better.

There's honestly like no reason to not run Armor runes anyway, even if it wasn't a Kayle here.

I feel from this that Kayle is in need of a nerf though. I don't know which but she has top laner base stats and mid laner level scaling plus ridiculous utility with barely any actual skill required.

They took her MR scaling and weakened her early game a little. She has one of the best Level 1s in the game and you walked into it by the sound of things. Don't do that. It's pretty easy to play around Kayle's E and it's not like it scales that well anyway.

I should warn you to be scared of her Q then since that's what's actually frightening about her Level 2-3.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

I'd like a better champion for top, though.

Elise.

Yeah, I wasn't prepared for such a high AD damage. I'm sure if I were running my armor rune page it'd be a bit better.

I feel from this that Kayle is in need of a nerf though. I don't know which but she has top laner base stats and mid laner level scaling plus ridiculous utility with barely any actual skill required.

She just got nerfed in the last patch. She's easily countered by mobility too. Get up in her face and it's generally hard for her to get away. Her early game is strong and he late game is strong, her mid game is a bit average though.

You know who's a perfect counter to Kayle, funnily enough? Akali.

I'm feeling you're more just not familiar with Kayle rather than anything about Kayle being really good (which she is, mind you, but still).

Yeah pretty much this.

I should warn you to be scared of her Q then since that's what's actually frightening about her Level 2-3.

Also this. If you get hit by her Q, expect to be hit by at least 3 autos and cry (before last patch it was worse too, she used to deal amplified damage to slowed targets and the slow lasted longer).

 

[garath]

RP runepages bundle OP?

Seriously. I'm not sure I get some people's reluctance to spend ANY money on the game.

If the rune pages are valuable to you, that implies you've put 100+ hours into the game and enjoy it enough to want to be as competitive as possible. $20 buys you the 7 page bundle. $20 is a perfectly reasonable amount to spend on any game, let alone one you can potentially play for years and hundreds upon hundreds of hours.

If nothing else, throw some money to the guys that created the game and get something that adds to your enjoyment of the game.

 

[scy]

She just got nerfed in the last patch.

To be fair, they also improved her late game with the boost to her slow.

You know who's a perfect counter to Kayle, funnily enough? Akali.

Lux has a really good skill matchup vs Kayle.

Then again, Lux has a skill matchup vs basically everyone.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

To be fair, they also improved her late game with the boost to her slow.

Well the slow amount yeah, but it lasts a second less and she lost the damage amp, so it's still a nerf really. She lost more than she gained.

 

[scy]

Well the slow amount yeah, but it lasts a second less and she lost the damage amp, so it's still a nerf really. She lost more than she gained.

The slow amount is a bigger deal than the duration since it means she can stick better for the kill in lane with proper attack-move use. The Damage Amp change is a pain, sure, but stacking her passive an entire attack faster isn't that bad really.

She lost more overall but the slow change is rather significant in how you play her in lane. Though, I should have said mid-game, not late, for the slow change.

 

[Ken]

so how do you dota

 

[zkylon]

Two auto attacks. And both of which are outside of Kayle's range (550 v 125/525 with E).

Ah I thought you meant passive plus two autos.

Again keeping at a 25 range is a thing that requires more skill on the opponent rather on Kayle.

What were you starting anyway? Just run pots and outrange her. I'm feeling you're more just not familiar with Kayle rather than anything about Kayle being really good (which she is, mind you, but still).

This is also where I note that almost every Kayle builds AP/ASPD, not AD, so I'm not sure what the Cloth Armor really accomplishes here.

This is just me being surprised a champion is doing 75-94 damage level 1 with autoattacks.

I on principle have a thing against ridiculously good champions like Kayle that any idiot can play, and like you say, cloth armor doesn't do me much good later on, but really what can you build against her? She naturally shreds armor/mr and builds liandry's so you can't stack health either. Just abuse range I guess.

If you actually watch the match you'll see I didn't do bad in lane but it's just a dumb champion I've decided I don't like anymore.

There's honestly like no reason to not run Armor runes anyway, even if it wasn't a Kayle here.

This is my fault for playing blind pick, but I'm at the moment thinking of swapping my mana regen yellows for something else.

You think armor are the better options for mid?

They took her MR scaling and weakened her early game a little. She has one of the best Level 1s in the game and you walked into it by the sound of things. Don't do that. It's pretty easy to play around Kayle's E and it's not like it scales that well anyway.

I should warn you to be scared of her Q then since that's what's actually frightening about her Level 2-3.

I've played her mid and know she has a good early game, it's just that it was such a ridiculous number I felt like fuck this champion.

Like I said, once I said ok fuck this imma abuse my range I had no problems with her. Of course not every champion has Lux's range and not everyone is as skillfull as I am in GTFO as soon as they see the flaming sword.

Lux has a really good skill matchup vs Kayle.

Then again, Lux has a skill matchup vs basically everyone.

Yup I said so in a previous post myself too. Basically if you're not as dumb as to get hit by his Q->E combo then the best thing she can do is block your burst with her ult.

Elise.

I haven't played her but 6 abilities tells me a functioning brain is required to play her.

She just got nerfed in the last patch. She's easily countered by mobility too. Get up in her face and it's generally hard for her to get away. Her early game is strong and he late game is strong, her mid game is a bit average though.

You know who's a perfect counter to Kayle, funnily enough? Akali.

Fuck Akali

 

[dimb]

so how do you dota

Pick Death Prophet. Make bats and ghosts.

 

[Ken]

Pick Death Prophet. Make bats and ghosts.

sounds like yorick

gg valve ripping off riot

 

[garath]

This is my fault for playing blind pick, but I'm at the moment thinking of swapping my mana regen yellows for something else.

You think armor are the better options for mid?

FWIW, I'm a wuss and I run armor and MR runes on ALL my mid champs except Katarina (which I run health regen yellows) and sometimes Kassadin. Especially if it's not clear who's midlaning (or blind pick of course).

Autos can hurt a lot in the beginning. Especially from champs like Kayle.

 

[scy]

Press buttons and everything dies. <insert Hero here>'s Q|W|E|R(D|F) op.

I dunno, it's been a fun break from LoL. I expected worse from "OH GOD LoL EZ CS" but, honestly, animation cancelling is more fluid in DotA2 so I find both games about the same difficulty to cs* (that is to say, not at all). Courier isn't that complicated to use and no free backs to base isn't that big of a deal if you're playing well anyway.

So basically it's just "kits are inherently stronger, items are more about using them rather than scaling." Everything else is fluff.

Also, I fucking hate Kunkka and I want the game to stop giving me him when I random.

*If you're anything remotely close to a carry. Support-tailored heroes have what appears to be the worst attack animations ever conceived. Melee vs ranged lane bullies is pretty hilarious as well.

 

[zkylon]

FWIW, I'm a wuss and I run armor and MR runes on ALL my mid champs except Katarina (which I run health regen yellows) and sometimes Kassadin. Especially if it's not clear who's midlaning (or blind pick of course).

Autos can hurt a lot in the beginning. Especially from champs like Kayle.

Armor runes on mid are pretty wasteful on most cases though. I mean, a bit more armor doesn't ever hurt but it won't really help your laning phase all that much.

I'm thinking of buying even more AP lol. Or MR.

 

[scy]

The bulk of the harass damage you take in lane is typically Physical, even in an AP Lane. That's melee minions and all auto-attacks. Very rarely is the bulk of the damage you take going to be purely spell damage.

 

[zkylon]

The bulk of the harass damage you take in lane is typically Physical, even in an AP Lane. That's melee minions and all auto-attacks. Very rarely is the bulk of the damage you take going to be purely spell damage.

Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound right :/

 

[mercviper]

Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound right :/

Sounds right to me.

 

[garath]

Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound right :/

Minions OP.

Plus there's junglers. A vi will kill you in one burst if she's running armor pen and lands the q.

Auto attacks add up too. Even if its not a Kayle, most mids harass with autos too unless its a melee range like akali or kassadin

 

[zkylon]

I just think I'm the only mid that shoots basic attacks on my elo, that's all.

Can't hurt to try tho.

 

[Ocho]

Definitively try running without Mana Reg runes and get extra armor/MR. Don't spam your spells and you should be fine.

 

[kayos90]

I don't believe in harass. Only death.

 

[dimb]

This design stinks. Riot has been way off the mark on some of the more recent champions.

 

[kayos90]

This design stinks. Riot has been way off the mark on some of the more recent champions.

That is not a yordle. One of you promised me a yordle dammit!

 

[zkylon]

This design stinks. Riot has been way off the mark on some of the more recent champions.

Yeah that looks pretty bad. I was hoping he was gonna be a funny shapeshifting blob, not some Monsters Inc. villain reject...

I've been known to violently change opinions though.

That is not a yordle. One of you promised me a yordle dammit!

Yeah I don't get why they said he'd be a yordle.

 

[dimb]

That is not a yordle. One of you promised me a yordle dammit!

English isn't Boken's first language.

 

[Ferrio]

*If you're anything remotely close to a carry. Support-tailored heroes have what appears to be the worst attack animations ever conceived. Melee vs ranged lane bullies is pretty hilarious as well.

If you hate attack animations from them... wait till you see techies. I'm pretty sure they haven't put them in yet for that reason. (Ie they're pretty worthless, hilarious to play as though). Their whole kit is laying mines, oh and a suicide attack.

 

[zkylon]

So armor or health yellows?

What do you guys think?

 

[dimb]

So armor or health yellows?

What do you guys think?

Uh, armor. Obviously.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

This design stinks. Riot has been way off the mark on some of the more recent champions.

I guess those are his ability icons to the left?

It's gonna be a wait and see thing I think. I'm not too impressed though.

 

[zkylon]

Uh, armor. Obviously.

Elaborate

 

[Ken]

This design stinks. Riot has been way off the mark on some of the more recent champions.

So he's Olaf/Darius/Some other buff human male champion with a different head.