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[Macam]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that he doesn't want the UK to leave and only allowed this to go to a referendum to help mobilize the right wing to support him and re-elect him last election.

This, plus what Stumpkapow said.

I don't find this surprising at all -- it'd be as if President Obama effectively exhorted large domestic companies to trumpet how much better things would be economically if TTIP and TPP were passed -- although I understand why it might irk Brexiters.

 

[Blackthorn]

With all the bullshit being thrown around by both sides, just remember that staying in the EU gives us another layer of protection against the Conservatives withdrawing the UK from the bill of human rights. I'm voting in because if we leave, everyone but the rich will be considered livestock and it will stress relations with NI and Scotland too.

Yeah with the current state of neoliberal politics in this country, I want to be as much a part of Europe as possible.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

With all the bullshit being thrown around by both sides, just remember that staying in the EU gives us another layer of protection against the Conservatives withdrawing the UK from the bill of human rights. I'm voting in because if we leave, everyone but the rich will be considered livestock and it will stress relations with NI and Scotland too.

You could just vote for the political party who has a human rights policy that you agree with though.

The main problem with the EU rules on human rights at the moment is there's too much in favour of criminals to the point victims are made to suffer which is the specific area the Conservatives are looking at as far as I'm aware.

The story today that Cameron was courting big business to make a case to stay in the EU even before his big EU negotiations should at least raise an eyebrow.

 

[dalin80]

As an American, why exactly do some in the UK want to leave the EU?

The belief that the EU takes more money from the UK then it gives.
The belief that the EU spends that money in areas UK tax payers wouldn't approve of.
The belief that the EU organisation is too bloated and inefficient.
The belief that EU imposed trade rules harm various UK industries.
The belief that EU rule makers can overrule UK laws/courts without oversight.
The belief that unelected MEP's have too much power and are fundamentally undemocratic.
Concerns that the EU's slow wheels of bureaucracy are stopping changes that need to be done.
Concerns that the EU's weak leadership undermines the strength and influence of the separate nations.
The belief that European ideals and the UK's are too separate to truly congregate.
Concerns that individual agendas within the EU are undermining security.
Concerns that the North/South divide will never resolve.
Concerns that the EU's open borders will forever perpetuate immigration.
The fact that we never actually signed up to the EU in it's current form.
The belief that the EU is impeding agreements with other nations such as China, Russia and Commonwealth countries.
Concerns that other EU nations will use legislation to undermine UK areas of strength, particularly French interests in curtailing the financial might of London.

Not saying all of these are true or that this covers everything (it really really doesn't) but fundamentally the divide between the EU and the UK is as wide as the Channel and noone in the UK signed up for what the EU is in it's present state. Also most Brits don't even consider themselves European (from 55% to 75% depending on which poll).


Sorry wait, forgot this was Gaf...

erm, coz we is all racists and homophobes and Trump will make ingerland great again!

 

[RetroDLC]

You could just vote for the political party who has a human rights policy that you agree with though.

The main problem with the EU rules on human rights at the moment is there's too much in favour of criminals to the point victims are made to suffer which is the specific area the Conservatives are looking at as far as I'm aware.

The story today that Cameron was courting big business to make a case to stay in the EU even before his big EU negotiations should at least raise an eyebrow.

The most recent 'reason' I remember was that the Cons didn't want prisoners to have their own books. The law isn't perfect, but I don't trust anyone in the current government to write up a fresh charter with no biases.

 

[Jackpot]

It's creating basic social issues which are beyond a few fiscal percentage points here and there for large swathes of the country.

Can you imagine a public school in America where the majority of kids don't speak English but rather dozens of different languages for instance?

wat.

Little englanders and their xenophobia.

 

[SporeCrawler]

The belief that the EU takes more money from the UK then it gives.
The belief that the EU spends that money in areas UK tax payers wouldn't approve of.
The belief that the EU organisation is too bloated and inefficient.
The belief that EU imposed trade rules harm various UK industries.
The belief that EU rule makers can overrule UK laws/courts without oversight.
The belief that unelected MEP's have too much power and are fundamentally undemocratic.
Concerns that the EU's slow wheels of bureaucracy are stopping changes that need to be done.
Concerns that the EU's weak leadership undermines the strength and influence of the separate nations.
The belief that European ideals and the UK's are too separate to truly congregate.
Concerns that individual agendas within the EU are undermining security.
Concerns that the North/South divide will never resolve.
Concerns that the EU's open borders will forever perpetuate immigration.
The fact that we never actually signed up to the EU in it's current form.
The belief that the EU is impeding agreements with other nations such as China, Russia and Commonwealth countries.
Concerns that other EU nations will use legislation to undermine UK areas of strength, particularly French interests in curtailing the financial might of London.

Not saying all of these are true or that this covers everything (it really really doesn't) but fundamentally the divide between the EU and the UK is as wide as the Channel and noone in the UK signed up for what the EU is in it's present state. Also most Brits don't even consider themselves European (from 55% to 75% depending on which poll).


Sorry wait, forgot this was Gaf...

erm, coz we is all racists and homophobes and Trump will make ingerland great again!

UK should leave and should be treated as a third nation by the EU states meaning that UK goods and services should be taxed heavily and UK peole should be required to get Visas for entering the EU and working permissions for working in the EU (also for any UK people already living in EU and with deportions if they dont get visas and permits in time). Also capital going in and out of UK should be taxed and technology and knowledge going into UK should be restricted. If this happens I am fine with a brexit. In no case should the EU allow a brexit to happen and then treat UK as any other EU member state.

 

[SRG01]

The belief that the EU takes more money from the UK then it gives.
The belief that the EU spends that money in areas UK tax payers wouldn't approve of.
The belief that the EU organisation is too bloated and inefficient.
The belief that EU imposed trade rules harm various UK industries.
The belief that EU rule makers can overrule UK laws/courts without oversight.
The belief that unelected MEP's have too much power and are fundamentally undemocratic.
Concerns that the EU's slow wheels of bureaucracy are stopping changes that need to be done.
Concerns that the EU's weak leadership undermines the strength and influence of the separate nations.
The belief that European ideals and the UK's are too separate to truly congregate.
Concerns that individual agendas within the EU are undermining security.
Concerns that the North/South divide will never resolve.
Concerns that the EU's open borders will forever perpetuate immigration.
The fact that we never actually signed up to the EU in it's current form.
The belief that the EU is impeding agreements with other nations such as China, Russia and Commonwealth countries.
Concerns that other EU nations will use legislation to undermine UK areas of strength, particularly French interests in curtailing the financial might of London.

Not saying all of these are true or that this covers everything (it really really doesn't) but fundamentally the divide between the EU and the UK is as wide as the Channel and noone in the UK signed up for what the EU is in it's present state. Also most Brits don't even consider themselves European (from 55% to 75% depending on which poll).


Sorry wait, forgot this was Gaf...

erm, coz we is all racists and homophobes and Trump will make ingerland great again!

The strange thing is that the UK hasn't been able to negotiate its own trade deals since the 1970s and nothing bad has happened since.

While I personally am a Euroskeptic in some specific areas, international trade and membership in the EU go hand in hand.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Let them leave. Then it will be Germany and France leading the EU... Finally both the Germans and French can stick it to that horrible dodgy empire.

/S

As an American I really view the EU experiment as a great way to make advances in governance... Sadly it has not evolved very well.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

wat.

Little englanders and their xenophobia.

Great debate will read again.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

UK should leave and should be treated as a third nation by the EU states meaning that UK goods and services should be taxed heavily and UK peole should be required to get Visas for entering the EU and working permissions for working in the EU (also for any UK people already living in EU and with deportions if they dont get visas and permits in time). Also capital going in and out of UK should be taxed and technology and knowledge going into UK should be restricted. If this happens I am fine with a brexit. In no case should the EU allow a brexit to happen and then treat UK as any other EU member state.

All those are reasons to leave though as it would prove how Politically inept the EU administration is.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

[SporeCrawler]

All those are reasons to leave though as it would prove how Politically inept the EU administration is.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Wait a second its a scenario where UK would be leaving right? UK would choose isolation over cooperation. Also it would be harmful to treat a leaver in the same way as a member after the leave.. Whats the point of having a partnership in the first place when you get treated the same way even if you are out of the union?

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

As an American, why exactly do some in the UK want to leave the EU?

Some people still haven't come to terms with the fact that the British empire fell long ago

See >

The same reason you're not a colonial right now.

Why doesn't South America and Canada just join the US?

A lot of it (but not as as all) boils down to racism, sadly

Don't think so.

 

[Jasup]

Not saying all of these are true or that this covers everything (it really really doesn't) but fundamentally the divide between the EU and the UK is as wide as the Channel and noone in the UK signed up for what the EU is in it's present state. Also most Brits don't even consider themselves European (from 55% to 75% depending on which poll)

Yeah, the Channel is so wide the train journey from London to Brussels takes 2 hours.

 

[DavidDesu]

Cameron's fucked regardless of what happens in June, right?

Please say yes.

Prime Minister Boris though. Not sure what's worse, Cameron's slimy round face still being in charge, or that fucking eejit. Or Theresa May, or George Osborne... the mind fucking boggles. Who the fuck votes for these pricks..?! Oh sorry, the mass of rich twats in southern England living in Vicar of Dibley land. FML.

 

[Jezbollah]

Prime Minister Boris though. Not sure what's worse, Cameron's slimy round face still being in charge, or that fucking eejit. Or Theresa May, or George Osborne... the mind fucking boggles. Who the fuck votes for these pricks..?! Oh sorry, the mass of rich twats in southern England living in Vicar of Dibley land. FML.

It must feel good to know that Jeremy Corbyn is your new hero.

 

[DavidDesu]

You could just vote for the political party who has a human rights policy that you agree with though.

The main problem with the EU rules on human rights at the moment is there's too much in favour of criminals to the point victims are made to suffer which is the specific area the Conservatives are looking at as far as I'm aware.

Conservatives have changed the system so that effectively the poor have far less resource at hand if taken to court. They're pricing the poor out of fair legal representation. They would love to annihilate worker's rights in favour of big business (no tribunal for you, 70hr work weeks demanded of you, less/no maternity leave and so on). Human Rights should be the one constant we can rely on. The minute we start allowing for them to be altered by the party in power, no matter their intention, is the moment we truly sink into dystopia. Bad enough all the stuff they do that technically should be illegal but somehow isn't... nevermind them actually removing any sort of safety net we feel we have with the current HR act.

 

[DavidDesu]

It must feel good to know that Jeremy Corbyn is your new hero.

Worse, Sturgeon and removing ourselves form the toxic little circle jerk of Westminster's archaic stranglehold on Scotland

 

[kswiston]

That is correct, I would not qualify to vote.

I thought you were from Newfoundland for some reason.

 

[Rubbish King]

The scaremongering title is hilarious.

You wouldn't say "Leaked Letter shows David Cameron plotting against Scottish separation campaign"--because a) it's not a problem that the prime minister of a country has a position on issues of national unity, and b) it's not a problem if during the course of the campaign he feels his role is better behind the scenes rather than in public depending on who they are trying to target.

And it's absolutely not plotting for political groups and invested interest groups to work together on a national plebiscite issue. Companies often can't tell the extent to which they should publicly involve themselves in political issues. It makes sense for the stay campaign, which is based around arguing that the economics of leaving are poor, should ask economic actors to disclose their position on the economics of leaving (their position is that the economics are poor). This is typical of all separation referendums, in fact.

You are of course free to ignore arguments about why leaving is bad because the people making them take the position that leaving is bad. You should ignore my post, as a British citizen not residing in the UK I can't vote but if I could I'd vote to remain.

I'll swap you one IN vote for a red name

 

[Ether_Snake]

How likely is it that the UK will vote out?

 

[Santiako]

How likely is it that the UK will vote out?

Not very likely.

 

[Psychotext]

It's not very likely... but the brexit lot will actually show up to vote, so stranger things have happened.

 

[Beefy]

How likely is it that the UK will vote out?

It's different depending on what poll you look at. I can see it being close.

 

[Garjon]

I don't think Cameron actually ever said he'd campaign for Leave did he? I do remember a LOT of question dodging though.

It's not very likely... but the brexit lot will actually show up to vote, so stranger things have happened.

The Brexiters are about as likely to vote as the Remainers. You've got the die-hards who will obviously show up, the people who always vote and people who vote if they can be bothered. As with every issue, a huge number of people couldn't give a shit, which is sad considering how this could affect people's lives more than any recent election.

 

[Psychotext]

The Brexiters are about as likely to vote as the Remainers.

I'm not convinced about that. There are a lot more people passionate about leaving than there are people passionate about staying.

 

[Madness]

A lot of it (but not as as all) boils down to racism, sadly

I doubt this. It boils down to losing poltical autonomy and being governed by unelected foreign elites who don't have your best interests at heart. The EU governing body is antithesis to the very definition of democracy. It is why right wing governments and ultranationalism is increasing in virtually every European country.

Would Canadians be racist if tomorrow they opposed joining a North American Union doninated by the US? Germany has acted pretty horrendously especially with Greece and the UK will again be the #1 economic power of Western Europe in the coming decades. It makes sense that the people of the UK don't want policymakers in Berlin, Brussels or Paris dictating to them.

 

[Garjon]

I'm not convinced about that. There are a lot more people passionate about leaving than there are people passionate about staying.

The passionate people are the minority and as I say, there are some very passionate people in the Remain camp too.

 

[Dingens]

You could just vote for the political party who has a human rights policy that you agree with though.

The main problem with the EU rules on human rights at the moment is there's too much in favour of criminals to the point victims are made to suffer which is the specific area the Conservatives are looking at as far as I'm aware.

The story today that Cameron was courting big business to make a case to stay in the EU even before his big EU negotiations should at least raise an eyebrow.

what are you even talking about? If you are part of the "justice system means revenge faction, you better move over the pond, you'll feel right at home there.

UK should leave and should be treated as a third nation by the EU states meaning that UK goods and services should be taxed heavily and UK peole should be required to get Visas for entering the EU and working permissions for working in the EU (also for any UK people already living in EU and with deportions if they dont get visas and permits in time). Also capital going in and out of UK should be taxed and technology and knowledge going into UK should be restricted. If this happens I am fine with a brexit. In no case should the EU allow a brexit to happen and then treat UK as any other EU member state.

pretty much... this half-assed approach to EU membership pisses of a lot of people and constantly throws wrenches into the EU's gears - for the wrong reasons. either you are in, or you are out. Cherry picking hurts everyone.

Maybe all the other EU countries should have their own poll about whether they want to keep the UK in the EU or not. That could be a lot of fun.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Conservatives have changed the system so that effectively the poor have far less resource at hand if taken to court. They're pricing the poor out of fair legal representation. They would love to annihilate worker's rights in favour of big business (no tribunal for you, 70hr work weeks demanded of you, less/no maternity leave and so on). Human Rights should be the one constant we can rely on. The minute we start allowing for them to be altered by the party in power, no matter their intention, is the moment we truly sink into dystopia. Bad enough all the stuff they do that technically should be illegal but somehow isn't... nevermind them actually removing any sort of safety net we feel we have with the current HR act.

People would just vote Labour again though. You can be asked work 70 hours weeks legally under current EU rules but the legislation is widely mis-understood.

 

[dalin80]

Yeah, the Channel is so wide the train journey from London to Brussels takes 2 hours.

Sorry, yes traversing the channel is pretty easy. I should have said 'as wide as your mom'.



Damnnnn.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I feel sorry for countries in the Euro zone that aren't Germany and to some extent France.
Diabolical what is being forced upon some countries.

What a load of rubbish. Oh woe us poor opressed plebs living under Brussels tyrannic rule.

Spare me this shit, I hear it enough from the Nazi Party here in Austria.

 

[SporeCrawler]

what are you even talking about? If you are part of the "justice system means revenge faction, you better move over the pond, you'll feel right at home there.



pretty much... this half-assed approach to EU membership pisses of a lot of people and constantly throws wrenches into the EU's gears - for the wrong reasons. either you are in, or you are out. Cherry picking hurts everyone.

Maybe all the other EU countries should have their own poll about whether they want to keep the UK in the EU or not. That could be a lot of fun.

UK would be out in an instance. Remember how UK tried to stop Junker, a guy which party was elected by EU wide elections to be the president of the EU commission? Now they are complaining about lsck of democracy.. Make up your mind UK

 

[Burai]

The belief that the EU takes more money from the UK then it gives.
The belief that the EU spends that money in areas UK tax payers wouldn't approve of.
The belief that the EU organisation is too bloated and inefficient.
The belief that EU imposed trade rules harm various UK industries.
The belief that EU rule makers can overrule UK laws/courts without oversight.
The belief that unelected MEP's have too much power and are fundamentally undemocratic.
Concerns that the EU's slow wheels of bureaucracy are stopping changes that need to be done.
Concerns that the EU's weak leadership undermines the strength and influence of the separate nations.
The belief that European ideals and the UK's are too separate to truly congregate.
Concerns that individual agendas within the EU are undermining security.
Concerns that the North/South divide will never resolve.
Concerns that the EU's open borders will forever perpetuate immigration.
The fact that we never actually signed up to the EU in it's current form.
The belief that the EU is impeding agreements with other nations such as China, Russia and Commonwealth countries.
Concerns that other EU nations will use legislation to undermine UK areas of strength, particularly French interests in curtailing the financial might of London.

Not saying all of these are true or that this covers everything (it really really doesn't) but fundamentally the divide between the EU and the UK is as wide as the Channel and noone in the UK signed up for what the EU is in it's present state. Also most Brits don't even consider themselves European (from 55% to 75% depending on which poll).


Sorry wait, forgot this was Gaf...

erm, coz we is all racists and homophobes and Trump will make ingerland great again!

You mean those unelected MEPs that we elect every five years?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The passionate people are the minority and as I say, there are some very passionate people in the Remain camp too.

True, but when people in polls are asked to rate their own likelihood to vote on the day, more leavers rate themselves "likely to vote" or "definitely voting" than remainers.

 

[pswii60]

Some people still haven't come to terms with the fact that the British empire fell long ago

This statement is so utterly misinformed, so I can only assume you're either trolling or genuinely don't know anything at all about this issue in which case your post looks even more silly.


Edit: to be fair, after reading more of the thread there are far worse ignorant and misinformed posts than yours, so I shouldn't have been so harsh. I don't know where to even start though.

The most common reason people want to leave though is mass immigration and the perceived over-crowding. But in reality, this is because the government isn't increasing services (schools, NHS etc), building new roads, and the country isn't building houses fast enough to meet the demand from the uncontrolled mass immigration predominantly from Eastern EU countries. There are many other reasons behind Brexit but this is the most talked about discussion on the agenda.

But there's no getting around the fact that's the UK is a tiny country which already had a large population, which is now growing further rapidly. But the opposite would cause us a whole bunch of other problems.

I'm in the remain camp but I still feel the EU needs a complete reform in the way it works. Unfortunately that option isn't on the agenda.

 

[HazySaiyan]

This whole referendum has been an absolute shitshow. Both sides pulling backhanded shady shit and lying through their back teeth. I'm voting to remain but it's not because of the Remain campaign, it's in spite of it.

 

[8bit]

I doubt this. It boils down to losing poltical autonomy and being governed by unelected foreign elites who don't have your best interests at heart. The EU governing body is antithesis to the very definition of democracy. It is why right wing governments and ultranationalism is increasing in virtually every European country.

Would Canadians be racist if tomorrow they opposed joining a North American Union doninated by the US? Germany has acted pretty horrendously especially with Greece and the UK will again be the #1 economic power of Western Europe in the coming decades. It makes sense that the people of the UK don't want policymakers in Berlin, Brussels or Paris dictating to them.

What has the UK got to offer Europe and/or the world nowadays that would put it in such a position?

 

[RetroDLC]

They're at it again.

The government is also expected to push ahead with controversial plans to tear up the Human Rights Act and replace it with a British bill of rights, in a move that is likely to face fierce resistance.

If you vote to leave, the country exits the EU and this happens, let this forever cloud your life. Vote to stay so we have a fighting chance against this.

 

[kavanf1]

There's not a chance in hell that any FTSE500 organisation isn't doing significant risk assessments on Brexit as a matter of course. Whether they pay attention to the letter or not is irrelevant, every single one of them will have Brexit as a key risk for consideration regardless.

 

[satriales]

They're at it again.



If you vote to leave, the country exits the EU and this happens, let this forever cloud your life. Vote to stay so we have a fighting chance against this.

This vote is a once in a lifetime chance to leave the EU. Voting to stay just because the conservatives are currently causing damage and will be even more free to do so on their own is a very short-sighted reason.

 

[Jezbollah]

There's not a chance in hell that any FTSE500 organisation isn't doing significant risk assessments on Brexit as a matter of course. Whether they pay attention to the letter or not is irrelevant, every single one of them will have Brexit as a key risk for consideration regardless.

Those companies you speak of did those risk assessments as soon as this referendum was announced in the Conservative party manifesto, and more likely earlier.

 

[RetroDLC]

This vote is a once in a lifetime chance to leave the EU. Voting to stay just because the conservatives are currently causing damage and will be even more free to do so on their own is a very short-sighted reason.

It's the most serious reason. We have nothing if we don't have human rights. I don't trust anyone in current government to write up a replacement bill which doesn't screw the country one way or another, along with putting at risk England's relationships with Northern Ireland (the whole peace process agreement has human rights at its core) and Scotland (who would have reason for a second referendum for going alone).

 

[kavanf1]

Those companies you speak of did those risk assessments as soon as this referendum was announced in the Conservative party manifesto, and more likely earlier.

Indeed, and what's surprising to me is how many of them are willing to nail their flags to the mast on this topic. All the organisations I've worked for, including my current employer, have come out against leaving, primarily because the perceived benefits in no way outweigh the potential for what could go wrong. Many have said that leaving London would be a strong possibility, which, regardless of anyone's feelings on the excessive concentration of employment in the south east, would be disastrous for the whole of the UK, given how many secondary and tertiary businesses rely on supporting London.

I've been on the fence for several years on this, the UK being a major net contributor is a major sticking point for me, given the issues the country has internally. Frankly though with a month to go, the leave campaign simply hasn't done enough to convince me, so I'm inclining towards voting to remain.

 

[amanset]

The fact that we never actually signed up to the EU in it's current form.

This is actually an important point that is often not expressed when someone asks for an explanation. It is one of the main reasons my Parents are voting to leave.

In 1975 there was a referendum in the UK for continued existence in the EEC (aka the Common Market). This was pretty much only a trade agreement. Many people voted for this as they thought trade was a good idea. What then happened was a classic example of the snowball effect with more and more powers being either transferred to the EU or being able to be overruled by the EU.

A lot of people that voted for the Common Market, like my Parents, are very angry about this and I totally get why. Personally, the EU is all I have ever known and so I am not angered by it in the slightest. However, as the UK deems me to be a lower class of British Citizen I will not be getting a vote.

 

[Rubbish King]

This vote is a once in a lifetime chance to leave the EU. Voting to stay just because the conservatives are currently causing damage and will be even more free to do so on their own is a very short-sighted reason.

.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

However, as the UK deems me to be a lower class of British Citizen I will not be getting a vote.

Eh? I'm guessing by this you just mean you're not a British national?

Edit: or, wait, you are a British national but you've been living abroad for 15+ years?

 

[Frozenprince]

It's creating basic social issues which are beyond a few fiscal percentage points here and there for large swathes of the country.

Can you imagine a public school in America where the majority of kids don't speak English but rather dozens of different languages for instance?

Yeah, I went to one.

It's called "Texas".

 

[PdotMichael]

I feel sorry for countries in the Euro zone that aren't Germany and to some extent France.
Diabolical what is being forced upon some countries.

I mean they were economical paradises before the Eurozone.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that he doesn't want the UK to leave and only allowed this to go to a referendum to help mobilize the right wing to support him and re-elect him last election.

This. He had no idea how easily the uneducated could be whipped into a frenzy by these racist groups. Now it's biting him in the ass and could jeapodise the country's future.

Another thing Cameron clearly wasn't ready for was the backstabbing by members of his own party, who are using this soley as way to grab power before a leadership challenge. Johnson especially springs to mind.