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Leaked Letter shows David Cameron plotting against leave campaign (EU)
- Thread starter Tak3n
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I'm a British Citizen that has lived in another EU country for sixteen years.
As my only citizenship is British I am officially disenfranchised. I am unable to vote in a General Election anywhere.
The only ggod thing that could come from a possible Brexit is I hope the EU will finally see that there's a need for reforms (especially concerning EU-Border control). It'd be a shame for the work of 50 years to go to waste because they wanted to keep the (not well working) status quo.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
If someone is "uneducated," then chances are that they will live in the poorer parts of the UK who will be seeing first hand the problems that can arise on their doorsteps.
The reason they get whipped into a frenzy is because their problems get hand waved away because they are "stupid."
QuicheFontaine
Member
You could apply for citizenship of the country you live in, right?
Uk will stay in, as with all these voting things the press purely focuses on leave so the masses believe that is what will happen. its always the opposite.
Neither side is putting any decent reasons across so I'm just voting stay.
Grass is always greener on the other side. Mainly because its fertilized with bullshit.
Neither side is putting any decent reasons across so I'm just voting stay.
Grass is always greener on the other side. Mainly because its fertilized with bullshit.
Wait. What mental disorder does the EU president have, and how are they fucking with your stamps?
being Spanish?
And have no real power, because the European Council effectively decides everything. That's my main problem with the way the EU works right now.
It has a growing population, Germany has the opposite.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
No, their problems get handwaved away because they are problems with individuals, not a system.
Having a problem with Romanian immigrants literally shitting on your doorstep is not a problem with immigration, it's a problem with nasty fuckers shitting on your doorstep.
And living in the poorer parts of the country is no excuse to fall for racist properganda and rheotoric. The actual facts are out there for anyone who wants to research them.
The fact is, the leave campaign prides itself on providing simplified answers to complex socioeconomic problems that confirm people's own beliefs and prejudices. It's calling back to a state that never existed and giving people false hope things will change for them. It's a dangerous game and it is going to hurt those same poorer people the hardest if it wins.
Immigrants and more control. They just don't realise it means mostly more control for big business, government and private interests to fuck us over. Of course I'm being sensationalist, but that's a loose gist.
Older generation's illusions. Also media brainwash, which seems to be influencing younger people as well, sadly. As an immigrant in the UK, this makes me sad.
Someone needs to make a very realistic overview of what exactly will happen if the UK leaves EU, as most people seem to have the completely wrong idea, thinking nothing will change. Everything will change. What % of the people working in healthcare do you think are British? What about all highly specialized people brought from abroad to work here because of the lack of talent. Everything will crumble.
MilkyJoe
Member
For a laugh, see what happens.
No it won't don't be so daft.
What we need to see is an honest and impartial for and against on each topic.
Then people can make a decision, the problem is that arseholes like Cameron have been making up nonsense.
See this shit? "Brexit could lead to war"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-increase-risk-of-europe-descending-into-war/
Fuck off you twat.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I think it's about 80%.
The idea that we need to be in the EU for the NHS to work is a bit of a red herring - we've got more non-EU nationals than EU nationals working there right now, mainly from India and the Phillipines.
Don't you think this is just a tad sensationalist?
Frankfurter
Member
Osbournes constituency is Tatton, in the North.
it's full of rich folk, footballers and deer.
Which has no bearing at all on my status as a British Citizen.
As I said, I am now a second class of citizen. The UK is not alone in acting this way, but also there are many countries where you do not lose the right to vote.
Rogue Agent
Banned
Anyone else received the Voting Guide from the Electoral Commission? It highlights both sides' arguments.
I'm not sure which one to vote, though. I want to vote to leave for more funds for things like the NHS, etc. but I don't know if that's just an excuse.
I'm not sure which one to vote, though. I want to vote to leave for more funds for things like the NHS, etc. but I don't know if that's just an excuse.
Psychotext
Member
Precisely zero extra money is going to make it into public services if we leave. If anything even more will disappear into the costs of making the changes required.
It's like the argument that immigration is putting stress on the NHS etc. It is, but then if some of that extra £2.5bn in tax revenue these migrants bring in was used for public services... it wouldn't be a particularly big problem.
I have friends who actually thinks that that higher European regulation on many things such as immigration, construction, Law, Privacy, etc.. laws have a detrimental effect on the UK being active on the international scenes.
Agent Gibbs
Member
Think of the EU as American Federal Government,
think of each member state (in this case the UK) as a US State
In such a scenario its like Texas wanting to secede from the union and shun 'Big Government'
On personal levels a lot of people see the amount of money the Uk pays the EU on a regular basis (is it £50million a day/week/year - the figure changes depending on their agenda) and think the savings would be better spend on X Y & Z in the Uk
Others think it will stop all immigration
Others think it will over night make our policing and legal systems amazing
Others simply don't like another tier of government who are less democratically elected
Others don't like how some countries have disproportionate influence over the whole union
Others are just xenophobic
Realistically however;
There are questions over the EU, several facets of the governance are unelected (by the public) and are chosen by EU ministers - The European courts are an example of this.
There are issues with vaguely worded sections of the human rights bills that allow criminals to avoid deportation, people bring up unnecessary legal challenges etc
There are questions over efficient use of public (EU wide) funding within the governance
and There really is an issue with immigration and the desire for open boarders, which is at odds with security of the union and a strange belief that border checks some how infringe on freedoms and prevent immigration, when simple checks are just that and still allow people in.
But all of that is not a reason to leave the union, its a reason to embrace it and seek to move further into it and improve it!
Its a silly stance to want to leave, to me its like owning a car and getting a puncture, then deciding the best course of action is to abandon the car. What you should do is get your fingers dirty and fix it, or bring in something that can fix it
As for Cameron being deceitful to stay in the union as a whole? on this the ends justifies the means to me
Rogue Agent
Banned
Yeah that's a good point. But I'm confused what to vote for then.
Jezbollah
Member
If you have been told not to give opinions on your clients then obviously it makes a difference to your relationship with them. In addition, such corporate representation is best made through your PR department and not through yourselves.
Nicktendo86
Member
What does that even mean? We run a massive trade deficit with the EU, it was £8.1 billion last October. The EU sells far more to us than we sell to the EU.
Kabouter said:
Bingo. It is an allusion of democracy, in effect MEPs are vastly overpaid wastes of space. The EU is a fantastic gravy train fro useless politicians who were voted out in their home countries for being shit.
mangochutney
Member
How has he lied?
You can both begin talks with FTSE companies about including comments in their reports highlighting risks, as they see it, about leaving and also consider leaving yourself if future events dictated you would change your position.
formasymphonic
Member
To be fair, a lot of other EU countries populations don't identify as "European", but rather see themselves as French, German, Italian, Polish, Spanish etc. Europe is potentially a superstate made up of individual countries, and its members merely already identify themselves under those banners.
Its not the same as say, someone from America not identifying as American (despite that also being a continent made up of multiple states)
hans_castorp
Member
Bubbles. Our economy was built on a big bubbly bubble.
Also on hosting all retired people from England and taking care of the 17th Bundesland, Mallorca.
What a lovely country we are :|
Nicktendo86
Member
He was telling EU leaders he would campaign to stay in back in June, before the supposed renegotiation even happened
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-consequences-of-brexit-leaked-10348826.html
We all know British politicans love following Swedish politics so perhaps once again they should follow the Swedish example and just ignore the results of the referendum and just stay in no matter what.
mangochutney
Member
Which is exactly the reason why it was not a lie.
We knew from day dot he wanted to remain in the EU having negotiated a 'better deal'.
Going on to then say you will recommend leaving if you don't get that agreement does not invalidate that.
And by talking with FTSE leaders before any deal is done is just good planning because you're fully expecting to reach an agreement and means you get to them before those wanting to leave do.
He got an agreement, however flimsy it was, meaning we never got to find out if he actually would recommend leaving, so how can he have lied if the scenario never occurred?
Hahahahaha
Think about who is making this argument. Remember how they've treated the NHS up to now.
Then decide with your brain, not your heart.
Rogue Agent
Banned
Yeah, that's the best way to go about it.
You mean the European Council consisting of ministers appointed by elected national parliaments presenting positions agreed by said parliaments?
I'm glad you agree.
Whatever your decision - and I ask this of all of you in this thread - please let it be guided by logic and facts, not feelings and hyperbole. That's what this vitally important decision deserves. Remember: It doesn't just affect you.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I thought your problem was being disenfranchised? You said "I'm not allowed to vote in a GE anywhere". Well, there's a solution - become a citizen of where you live and vote in their elections.
Yes. My main problem with it, and other parts of the structure of the EU (like the way the parliament is elected), is that the whole thing is designed to be a club where people fight for national interests, rather than the good of the whole. The EU will never work as it should (and has to) unless that changes.
No, that's a symptom of my country deciding I am a lower class of citizen.
That's funny, the main myth especially in the British media is that EU just rolls over everyone's national interests with this mysterious "Brussels" dictating laws and justice above the heads of the poor UK Parliament.
EU works exactly the way it's designed to and the Council holds all the power because everyone is deathly afraid to give another inch of it away. Both the Council and the Parliament represent their electorate when that changes so does the spirit of cooperation. The internal market which is managed by the Commission works pretty well.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
What if there's hundreds of people suddenly arrive in a neighbourhood behaving anti socially with no sign of abating?
Also is door step shitting a thing lol? Nasty.
SporeCrawler
Member
Which is not the fault of the EU but the fault of the national states that refuse to give up power. Also its bullshit to say that the european council is undemocratic too as the people in there are all elected officials
Welcome to every parliament ever where political parties and officials fight only for themselves and not for the greater good.
CyclopsRock
Member
This is dismissive of the ways that the EU and, more specifically,i immigration affects different people differently. It's can be simultaneously true that immigration as a whole is beneficial whilst immigration to specific people or areas has negative affects. It's not all just racists and people with bad person experiences of Romanians shitting on their doorstep. There's a whole group of working class British people who have seen the few routes out of poverty available to them (namely trades) massively devalued by an influx of people from other parts of Europe with these skills. This is great for the middle classes and non-trade working classes who now get cheaper services when it comes to plumbing, electricians etc but you can't expect the person training to be a plumber who sees their potential wages and work fall off a cliff to be happy about it, and that dissatisfaction doesn't make them either racist or ignorant.
CyclopsRock
Member
Well you're almost entirely unaffected by the actions of the parliament in Westminster. You *are* a lower class of citizen as long as you're not here, because the coming and goings of the executive and the legislature have so little effect on your life. What MP is supposed to represent your views in parliament?
There are all manner of places where I don't live where I also don't get a vote.
CyclopsRock
Member
A) no they aren't and b) those that are elected were not elected to do *that*. It's like saying I am an elected representative of my work place during contract negotiations because I got voted to organise the Christmas party.
Edit: M-m-m-m-monster killllll
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
I'll preface this by saying I think humanity would be better off under one united government rather than the 200 so nation-states we have now.
That said, either the EU needs to federalize into its own nation or the NATO nations need to join in a perpetual union with the United States of America in sort of a United States of the West. At the very least the Anglosphere should unite as one nation.
That said, either the EU needs to federalize into its own nation or the NATO nations need to join in a perpetual union with the United States of America in sort of a United States of the West. At the very least the Anglosphere should unite as one nation.
ultratruman
Banned
I have more respect for this man as every day goes by. Not a Conservative voter.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Self employed trades are not part of the national wages calculation. They got hammered in the last decade.
All of them? It's quite possible many or indeed all of them view this as a sincere risk, irrespective of urgings from either campaign. If there were bribes going on its a different matter but there's nothing in the leak to back that.
I'm sure the leave campaign has been lobbying companies too - if they've been less effective, then all else being equal it may be a reflection of where the weight of sincere concern lies.
CyclopsRock
Member
OK? I'm not sure that this has anything to do with what I said though.
I don't disagree with that. That said, I think when it comes to European policy, Europeans should be voting for a parliament that determines European policy, not have it be determined indirectly by the heads of government of individual states which people will generally vote for principally for national policies rather than European ones.
I think that's overly cynical, and also, not nearly every parliament suffers from the degree of regionalism that the EU's governing structure does, and that really shouldn't be the case.
Please no. And I mean, if the UK leaves the EU, isn't the Anglosphere pretty much just one nation governed from Washington?
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