I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
zefah dont even live in the holy land, he a poser
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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!
- Thread starter I'm an expert
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I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
i actually dont, live in a rich spot of saitama, but work in toranomon, where all the foreigners who speak pristine japanese work. some make me feel inadequate.
Don' worry Zefi-booh, we made ourselves look bad on our own. We didn't need you for that
.There are different patterns and some exceptions, but many times the intransitive verb will end in ある or う while the transitive verb will end in える, e.g.:
- 止まる vs. 止める: to stop vs. to stop sth
- 絡まる vs. 絡める: to be entwined vs. to entwine sth
- 沈む vs. 沈める: to sink vs. to sink/submerge sth
- as you said, 閉まる vs. 閉める: to close vs. to close/shut sth
Another common pattern is an う/る/える/れる ending for intransitive vs. あす/す for transitive. I suspect that, in many cases, this pattern comes from the way the causative form (i.e. "to make/let sb do") of verbs is constructed, which is by adding あせる/させる at the end. Some causative forms are so common that over time they've become their own verbs, and the causative ending has been shortened to あす or す as a result... e.g.:
- 流れる vs. 流す: to flow vs. to drain/pour/spill sth (literally "to make sth flow")
- 逃げるvs. 逃す (which can be read as のがす or にがす
: to flee/run away vs. to let sb go- 隠れる vs. 隠す: to hide (onesefl) vs. to hide sth
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
kilroggs info is useful and the standard way of thinking when beginning to learn this language. but dont. dont learn ru and u verbs, or i and na adjectives, or these silly rules that are never 100% and always have exceptions. just learn from practical use. these kind of study method are for passing college quizzes, not for learning the language.
no one will ever say door wo shimatte. thats how you learn the difference.
no one will ever say door wo shimatte. thats how you learn the difference.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Yeah, these types of things are usually super obvious through context.
Hey, the man (woman?) wanted tips and patterns, I provided tips and patterns. I believe both the practical and the theoretical approaches are useful and complement each other to let you achieve true mastery of a language in the long run. Having a solid understanding of the mechanics of a language, no matter how many exceptions to its rules there are, is always good, as long as you don't fool yourself into thinking it's enough. Some people need that technical foundation to become aware of some things and/or to solidify their understanding of the language It's just not enough by itself to become really good.
You're obviously right that he'll pick it up from hearing the language, and your advice is very sound, but it's hardly helpful when he's asking the question right now. Let him/her use those rules as a starting point if that can help him.
[EDIT] When it comes down to it, this is very basic stuff though, so I get where you're coming from. No doubt eefara will pick this stuff up in no time if he's serious about it.
OK, i've got one here that i'm sure will mess with most peoples ears. not gonna say what i think it is cause i don't wanna bias it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrVu_v-r-fw [0:42 - 0:50] mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrVu_v-r-fw [0:42 - 0:50] mark.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
???
every word is audible and clear
im assuming not knowing the beginning is mentally blocking the rest for you so ill just help..
kou iu fuu ni desu ne
every word is audible and clear
im assuming not knowing the beginning is mentally blocking the rest for you so ill just help..
kou iu fuu ni desu ne
This hits too close to home as the floor in my apartment has been bending like crazy for the past few weeks due to, I assume, all the rain and floods we've had here in Paris. I deeply resent you for this.
Not sure what the problem is, sorry :lol
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
no one knows what exactly youre asking. you should have just said what you had trouble with rather than throwing out a random pop quiz. wasnt calling you dumb, but even other people agree its hard to find something in those 8 seconds out of the ordinary.
MannyToons
Member
Oh cool! I didn't know there was a thread for this. I've been starting on learning to read Hiragana and Katakana and I almost have them down. I'm excited to move on to actually learning to make, read, and understand words with that knowledge. I'll keep checking on this thread to see how everyone else is faring or if you guys have any suggested sites.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
so what part didnt you get or what did you think it was
from 0:44, i got こういう風ですね、「泥・道路」についていますで、稼働隙なっています。
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Here's his full line:
こういう風にですね、ローラー付いていまして、可動式（かどうしき）になっています
Honestly, Res, I think your listening skills are getting quite good considering the limited amount of time you've been studying. I hope that not being able to easily understand this old guy with less than ideal enunciation isn't demotivating.
こういう風にですね、ローラー付いていまして、可動式（かどうしき）になっています
Honestly, Res, I think your listening skills are getting quite good considering the limited amount of time you've been studying. I hope that not being able to easily understand this old guy with less than ideal enunciation isn't demotivating.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
o_o your listening isnt exactly off i think youre just throwing darts at finding words that fit the sounds. this may be a good time to check out 可. whenever i came across an interesting point id forget what i was initially looking at and follow the path down the interesting point, kind of like falling down a wiki hole. ka can have some interesting usage.
fuck! expert, probably. not making excuses, but it was a combination of: 1. is this really sloppy/broken japanese? 2. is he saying cause of the dirt/crappy style of wheel, it functions with a gap between the road and the wheel (the next shot is of a nice looking wheel, was that a juxtaposition?). this is the kind of stuff that will stump me, but i'm yet to find a good source of that style of conversation - raw, candid stuff from interviews. i need to dig deeper on yahoo.jp because NHK is usually pretty clean so i don't get the exposure.
zefah, thank you. it is demotivating though. i'm yet to make the connection between the words i can read, and the stuff i can hear and process logically. two totally different things for me right now.
zefah, thank you. it is demotivating though. i'm yet to make the connection between the words i can read, and the stuff i can hear and process logically. two totally different things for me right now.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
you cant assume when you dont catch something that its because of sloppy/casual/slang/dialect japanese lol. this guy is speaking as normal as it gets. as for juxtaposition, the lady literally says what the key point of the dumb things are one second before. i think if you had pieced the ka together you would have it.
Hi all,
I'm picked up Heisig again a few weeks ago. I've started and stopped it twice in the past five years, making it up to about 300 kanji or so on my second attempt. I'm frustrated that I didn't stick with it though, because if I had I'd be much farther along in my progress if I had stuck with self-study all this time.
Set a pace of 20 new kanji a day this time instead of being so hasty to learn quickly and burn myself out. It's nice to know there are quite a few members on Gaf that have learned the language as well.
I'm picked up Heisig again a few weeks ago. I've started and stopped it twice in the past five years, making it up to about 300 kanji or so on my second attempt. I'm frustrated that I didn't stick with it though, because if I had I'd be much farther along in my progress if I had stuck with self-study all this time.
Set a pace of 20 new kanji a day this time instead of being so hasty to learn quickly and burn myself out. It's nice to know there are quite a few members on Gaf that have learned the language as well.
marimorimo
Member
Yeah, this is just normal, everyday speech but there's no need to beat yourself up over it. You've never lived in Japan, right? For someone who hasn't been in Japan long, you're getting pretty good at listening so I wouldn't sweat it. And if JLPT 1 is your goal, the listening portion has people speaking much more clearly and much slower than than a random Japanese guy.
Aside from that I notice I don't actually understand every.single.word in every TV show I watch in Japanese. Surprisingly, it hardly affects my comprehension. There are so many other context clues that usually point out what the word means anyway. I guess my mind just glosses over things I don't understand and pieces everything together somehow.
Anyway, back to that clip I initially thought you were asking about what the guy said at 1:07. That's super unclear to me. Another Mach-5 speed speaker.
「オリムピックに来ちゃった方」？？？ 「オリンピックに来た方」？？ Or is it something totally different...
TickleMeElbow
Member
The second one.「オリンピックに来た方」.
There are different patterns and some exceptions, but many times the intransitive verb will end in ある or う while the transitive verb will end in える, e.g.:
- 止まる vs. 止める: to stop vs. to stop sth
- 絡まる vs. 絡める: to be entwined vs. to entwine sth
- 沈む vs. 沈める: to sink vs. to sink/submerge sth
- as you said, 閉まる vs. 閉める: to close vs. to close/shut sth
Another common pattern is an う/る/える/れる ending for intransitive vs. あす/す for transitive. I suspect that, in many cases, this pattern comes from the way the causative form (i.e. "to make/let sb do") of verbs is constructed, which is by adding あせる/させる at the end. Some causative forms are so common that over time they've become their own verbs, and the causative ending has been shortened to あす or す as a result... e.g.:
- 流れる vs. 流す: to flow vs. to drain/pour/spill sth (literally "to make sth flow")
- 逃げるvs. 逃す (which can be read as のがす or にがす
- 隠れる vs. 隠す: to hide (onesefl) vs. to hide sth
I appreciate the help, kilrogg; all I was looking for were some basic tips. No worries, expert, I'm not going to kill myself memorising the pairs. As you (and others) noted, it's usually pretty obvious from context which is which. I like having a technical foundation, as kilrogg said, just as a basis to work things out if needed.
Splash Wave
Member
I have a *highly* limited understanding of Japanese, and I'd like to brush up on some level 1 stuff online. Do you guys know of any websites/quizzes/classes that I could mess around with while killing time at work? I'm looking for hiragana/katakana review, elementary kanji, and some basic grammar stuff. I need to stop refreshing Twitter.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
hey friends, I've only just begun the massive undertaking that is learning Japanese and I have a rather silly question to ask.
I understand that katakana is used to write out loan words from other languages, but are there other instances where you'd use katakana to write out something rather than hiragana or kanji? I'm guessing this is stepping into the world of grammar so I apologize if it can't be summed up in a paragraph. Would it have to do with katakana being easier to write out, or is it based on the audience you are writing to?
I understand that katakana is used to write out loan words from other languages, but are there other instances where you'd use katakana to write out something rather than hiragana or kanji? I'm guessing this is stepping into the world of grammar so I apologize if it can't be summed up in a paragraph. Would it have to do with katakana being easier to write out, or is it based on the audience you are writing to?
Globehopper
Member
I'm doing this right now too, at 20 new characters per day. Coincidentally I hit my 300th character yesterday!
I'm using Anki and the NihongoShark kanji deck, which is amazing. I've never used a flashcard/mnemonic method before and so far it's working incredibly well. I've set up new tags inside Anki which let me review any or all of the previous days' characters and my memorization rate is around 95% right now.
Obviously it gets harder as you amass more and I'm worried that I'll start to forget earlier ones, so to combat that I'm reviewing all of the previous ones each day. I just started doing this; not sure how long that will take per day once I'm up to like 1000+ characters learned but we'll see!
I'm trying to do at least an hour of grammar/vocab/reading each day too. Not easy with a full-time job and even just a few social commitments but I'm serious about learning the language so I'm trying pretty hard to keep to my schedule.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Hi, everyone!
I've been studying Japanese for quite some time now and supposedly I should be between N3 and N2 levels. In fact, I took a course in Japan where almost 70% of my classmates were aiming to take the N2 exam that year. But I have to be very honest: at that time I didn't feel confident enough to take the N2 exam and that was a couple of years ago. I still don't think I'm ready for that exam.
My main problems are remembering kanji and vocabulary words... you know, those words that you don't use often in a conversation like "atmosphere" or "natural phenomena", the stuff that usually appears in the N2 exam. Today I just created an account in WaniKani, but I'm interested in all kinds of techniques and methods of study because I feel kind of desperate to improve my skills.
Any suggestions?
I've been studying Japanese for quite some time now and supposedly I should be between N3 and N2 levels. In fact, I took a course in Japan where almost 70% of my classmates were aiming to take the N2 exam that year. But I have to be very honest: at that time I didn't feel confident enough to take the N2 exam and that was a couple of years ago. I still don't think I'm ready for that exam.
My main problems are remembering kanji and vocabulary words... you know, those words that you don't use often in a conversation like "atmosphere" or "natural phenomena", the stuff that usually appears in the N2 exam. Today I just created an account in WaniKani, but I'm interested in all kinds of techniques and methods of study because I feel kind of desperate to improve my skills.
Any suggestions?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Read books, articles, magazines, hell even manga. Look up the words you don't understand, and write them down if that helps.
Will almost certainly trump any kind of flashcard system or fancy memorization app when it comes to retaining information and making the words your own.
Iva Demilcol
Member
To be honest I've tried this too. It helps you to make your own vocabulary list but what I need is to retain those words that I study in my classes and I keep forgetting.
PreyingShark
Member
Can you please give us some more examples of the kinds of words you're forgetting? The Japanese words I mean, not what they mean in English (for example, there are multiple meanings "atmosphere" can have, each with a different corresponding Japanese word).
Iva Demilcol
Member
I don't want to sound like an ass but that's exactly my problem. I can't remember those words, not even in hiragana. They have no meaning to me. They throw around so many words in my textbooks that I don't care about that I just can't retain them. I gave you two common "examples", now imagine this situation: you reach a lesson where the textbook talks about the Cenozoic era or something similar and suddenly you have to read 50 words related to that. I seriously can't keep up with that.
The worst thing is that when you take the JLPT at N2 level, you'll have to read texts that can get kind of complex because you have to deal with that level of vocabulary.
TheSporkWithin
Member
The only thing for it is to just read more, as Zefah already said. Textbook material is often dry (though I found Tobira to be an exception, with quite interesting and varied selections and topics), so read something else. Look up words you don't know. Write them down - kanji and reading - and just keep pushing ahead. The stuff will stick eventually. You can also incorporate flash cards - either digital, like Anki, or actual handmade paper cards. If you do I suggest copying down the sentences that the words occured in on the cards. Having context for the words, and having gone through the steps of reading, looking them up, and parsing them on your own, will help to forge much stronger connections than spoon-fed vocabulary lists.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Why do you need to worry about n2 if you dont want to learn uninteresting words. Just study what you want and forget about the test.
Iva Demilcol
Member
I have an actual reason related to my career though. I also don't think those words are uninteresting I just can't retain them. Learning Japanese was kind of fun at the beginning, but today I'm struggling to reach the N2 level of Japanese proficiency that I need. I'm not saying I hate it because I certainly don't, I'm just asking for suggestions that I haven't tried yet because that may be the key to get an official certification that will certainly benefit my career.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You said youve been studying for years but dont think youre even n2. If you want it for your career, just get n1..2 is utterly worthless except for checking off some minimum requirements list in which case theyd just prefer n1 anyway.
As for retaining info, just stop reading, writing, watching english. Get off this message board. See if you can even do that for one week. If you cant, then you just need to reevaluate your motivations.
95% is really good I think. I'm in the same boat as you, full time work, married with kids, trying to workout daily and study kanji can be a challenge. It's hard to get that long block of time (even one hour can be hard). Good luck. I'm up to 140 today, and just doing my 20 daily and trying not to sweat it if I miss a day here and there.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I'm still having so much trouble understanding the applications of 一応.
Hey could someone help me translate this sentence from the manga よつばと?
The situation is: yotsubato and another girl talking about the air conditioning in the room and yotsubato is asking the girl why she doesn't use it. The girl answers:
できるだけクーラーは使わないようにしてるの
So while I get what she is saying, the ようにしてるの part is a mystery to me. Theoretically I know how ように modifies what comes after it, but translation like "like" or "so that" don't make sense to me...Is she just asking if Yotsubato knows that you shouldn't use the cooler as much as possible? Or is she just stating that she herself knows that you shouldn't use the cooler all the time?
The situation is: yotsubato and another girl talking about the air conditioning in the room and yotsubato is asking the girl why she doesn't use it. The girl answers:
できるだけクーラーは使わないようにしてるの
So while I get what she is saying, the ようにしてるの part is a mystery to me. Theoretically I know how ように modifies what comes after it, but translation like "like" or "so that" don't make sense to me...Is she just asking if Yotsubato knows that you shouldn't use the cooler as much as possible? Or is she just stating that she herself knows that you shouldn't use the cooler all the time?