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[Resilient]

Hi all, this Dec i'm going to try and aim for N4/N3. I recently bought 1 year sub to Wanikani in hope to improve my kanji game, thou i'm not too sure what to do when it comes to grammar.

Is there any recommended grammar books/sites that the gaffers like to use?

Believe it or not the First post is packed with heaps of info whether you are starting fresh or beginner/intermediate. Have a read through all the resources and if you're still stuck post again and I'll help you out. Let me know which parts of the OP interest you.

You're better off doing than that reading a few replies from people saying "genki/tobira/app is the best!" And picking one of those.

 

[Kilrogg]

Kilrogg (or anyone else), do you have any recommended replacement apps? Preferably an all-in-one app with all of the features one would want (being able to tap a word to jump to its definition, being able to look up radicals and individual Kanji, being able to write characters directly, etc.)

I haven't been impressed with the (albeit limited) dictionary apps I have tried on iOS.

Most importantly, it must absolutely not require an active Internet connection to work.

God I wish I had one to recommend. Although, full disclaimer: I know next-to-nothing about smartphone/tablet apps since I *wait for it* own a BlackBerry with BBOS. Yeah.

The closest thing to an actually practical solution I've found for reading is buying one of the more recent Kindles with Japanese ebooks. You get a couple Japanese dictionaries with instant, offline lookup, and you can add some more - although I've only found one so far. It also automatically logs all the words you've looked up, with the sentence you looked it up in for added context. But that's it. You can't write characters or look up kanji, radicals or pitch accents.
For pitch accents and kanji readings I use the Rikaichan plugin for Firefox with the Rikaisama add-on. It's only available for Firefox, but you can use it offline.

For writing? You're screwed I guess :/.

 

[Beckx]

so i am going to share something that's causing me a problem and you all may laugh at how stupid i am (which is fine!)

one of my favorite manga authors posted this on twitter

漫画のお話とかを考えたりするフレンズです。

I understand all the words and before reading this would have said i know all the grammar, but, based on what i know, it turns into a sentence that i'm having trouble with.

its structured as a noun です sentence, with a verb clause modifying the noun, but that literally turns it into something like: "it's thinking about manga stories and such friends."

i assumed that they were talking about discussing story ideas with friends, but the structure of the sentence is completely throwing me, which is frustrating.

what am i missing (other than skill, ability, understanding.....)

 

[Gradivus]

Believe it or not the First post is packed with heaps of info whether you are starting fresh or beginner/intermediate. Have a read through all the resources and if you're still stuck post again and I'll help you out. Let me know which parts of the OP interest you.

You're better off doing than that reading a few replies from people saying "genki/tobira/app is the best!" And picking one of those.

Ok, I'll take a look through the OP and see what what catches my eye.

 

[Alanae]

so i am going to share something that's causing me a problem and you all may laugh at how stupid i am (which is fine!)

one of my favorite manga authors posted this on twitter

漫画のお話とかを考えたりするフレンズです。

I understand all the words and before reading this would have said i know all the grammar, but, based on what i know, it turns into a sentence that i'm having trouble with.

its structured as a noun です sentence, with a verb clause modifying the noun, but that literally turns it into something like: "it's thinking about manga stories and such friends."

i assumed that they were talking about discussing story ideas with friends, but the structure of the sentence is completely throwing me, which is frustrating.

what am i missing (other than skill, ability, understanding.....)

I'm assuming he just left out/implied the subject, like:
(彼ら&#12399漫画のお話とかを考えたりするフレンズです。

 

[Beckx]

I'm assuming he just left out/implied the subject, like:
(彼ら&#12399漫画のお話とかを考えたりするフレンズです。

i feel dumb. this never occurred to me and it just seems so strange to throw the sentence out there without a prior referent (it's the first new tweet in several days). hopefully this is something that gets better as i'm exposed to more ways that people really talk/write and less textbook stuff.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

it just seems so strange to throw the sentence out there without a prior referent (it's the first new tweet in several days).

Welcome to Twitter!

(only sort of joking)

 

[Resilient]

that's an english twitter thing too. people making tweets assuming everybody knows what they're talking about, when really nobody is listening and the tweet is kind of sad..

 

[openrob]

Hi guys, novice here. I last posted in september, and not much has changed! I feel a bit more confident and plan to get back into the swing of things.

I am trying to learn Japanese. I don't have any conctrete goals in mind (e.g. Employment in Japan), but am really interested in Japan and have several friends who live there.

I am currently on my way to JLPT Lv 5. I'm using Wani-Kani, Youtube and Podcasts. I also read a bit of Remembering the Kanji, but then gave that up for Wani Kani. I am also going to try to get to a class once a week if I can find one that meets my geographical and financial means lol. I am confident with kana, pretty much got the sentance structure and can start simple conversations, order food etc.

Basically I would like to post here with updates of my progress every now and then.
If I can work towards my first JLPT cert then that would be a huge milestone for me.

For now I think it would be good to hear from others what the work like getting to, and moving on from, the Lv5?

So I booked onto a local Japanese class starting in two weeks. They use Japanese for Busy People II.

I said I wasn't sure about jumping in at the higher level but we shall see!

Do you recommend that I burn through the first book ahead of starting?

Cheers.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Do you recommend that I burn through the first book ahead of starting?

Are you starting from zero? JfBP is not terribly well-regarded as a self-study text (or in general, but a good teacher/course can make up for a lot). If you need to run through the earlier stuff you're probably better off with something else.

imabi is a decent online textbook of sorts. It looks like JfBP picks up at the start of what's labeled as "Intermediate" on there (though I expect there are a lot of tangential points that imabi touches on which JfBP does not).

If imabi is too long-winded for you, a lot of people like Tae Kim's Grammar Guide, but it's not really structured in such a way that you could only read it to catch up.

 

[openrob]

Are you starting from zero? JfBP is not terribly well-regarded as a self-study text (or in general, but a good teacher/course can make up for a lot). If you need to run through the earlier stuff you're probably better off with something else.

imabi is a decent online textbook of sorts. It looks like JfBP picks up at the start of what's labeled as "Intermediate" on there (though I expect there are a lot of tangential points that imabi touches on which JfBP does not).

If imabi is too long-winded for you, a lot of people like Tae Kim's Grammar Guide, but it's not really structured in such a way that you could only read it to catch up.

Thanks for that. I'm not a total newbie. I can read kana and Basically learnt off YouTube, apps and actually went through a lot of the grammar lessons on http://www.learn-japanese.info/indexgk.html which I found really helpful. Main thing is my speed and vocab might be limited when jumping into a class.

I will have a look at the links later on though!

 

[Gradivus]

Ok, A few questions.

1. What's the difference between しないと and しなきゃ (しなきゃ is the casual form of しなければならない,right?)

I see those two in manga sometimes, and I always translated them into my head as "I've gotta do this/that". Still, i'm unsure if they have two totally different meanings or not.

2. How does てある and である work?
I stole this example from Full metal alchemist

増援を呼びますか？ call for reinforcements?

もう呼んである Already called for them.

Why was もう呼んである used instead of just もう呼んだ？

3. Sometimes I see these particles とは and には.

While I sorta understand には, I'm unsure when I should use that particle. And as for とは, i'm completely at lost, lol.

 

[Beckx]

~てある is used to reflect a preparation already taken. it's the end result of doing something with ～ておく (to take an action to prepare).

Tae Kim has an article on とは: "While you can guess the meaning of most double particles from the sum of it's parts such as 「には」 (a target that's also a topic), 「とは」 really has a meaning of its own. Simply put, it is a somewhat formal and concise way to define something. "

 

[Gradivus]

I see, so it works opposite to ～ておく.
and とは is just for defining things. That's a lot easier to understand now.
Thanks for your help!

 

[Resilient]

Ok, A few questions.

1. What's the difference between しないと and しなきゃ (しなきゃ is the casual form of しなければならない,right?)

I see those two in manga sometimes, and I always translated them into my head as "I've gotta do this/that". Still, i'm unsure if they have two totally different meanings or not.

http://maggiesensei.com/2010/11/20/〜なきゃ＆〜なくちゃ-nakya-nakucha-suffixes/

2. How does てある and である work?
I stole this example from Full metal alchemist

増援を呼びますか？ call for reinforcements?

もう呼んである Already called for them.

Why was もう呼んである used instead of just もう呼んだ？

Using 「~てある」 for resultant states - old mate Tae Kim

Appropriately enough, just like there is an 「ある」 to go with 「いる」, there is a 「~てある」 form that also has a special meaning. By replacing 「いる」 with 「ある」, instead of a continuing action, it becomes a resultant state after the action has already taken place. Usually, this expression is used to explain that something is in a state of completion. The completed action also carries a nuance of being completed in preparation for something else.
Examples

Since this grammar describes the state of a completed action, it is common to see the 「は」 and 「も」 particles instead of the 「を」 particle.

（１）　準備はどうですか。- How are the preparations?
（２）　準備は、もうしてあるよ。 - The preparations are already done.

（１）　旅行の計画は終った？- Are the plans for the trip complete?
（２）　うん、切符を買ったし、ホテルの予約もしてある。- Uh huh, not only did I buy the ticket, I also took care of the hotel reservations.

 

[Beckx]

I am feeling miserable about my ability to speak Japanese at this point.

Trying to construct sentences is a halting, fumbling process. I have to set up something this year to speak with someone regularly.

 

[Resilient]

I am feeling miserable about my ability to speak Japanese at this point.

Trying to construct sentences is a halting, fumbling process. I have to set up something this year to speak with someone regularly.

do it now?

do you watch dramas at all? just watch heaps of dramas and write down everything you don't understand. did wonders for me and made me sound less stiff.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I am feeling miserable about my ability to speak Japanese at this point.

Trying to construct sentences is a halting, fumbling process. I have to set up something this year to speak with someone regularly.

Talk to yourself. In your head is fine, but out loud is better. If you read, read out loud, and repeat phrases that come out poorly.

 

[Gradivus]

I am feeling miserable about my ability to speak Japanese at this point.

Trying to construct sentences is a halting, fumbling process. I have to set up something this year to speak with someone regularly.

Do you have any Japanese friends to talk with? If not, why not try searching to see if there's any language exchange groups within your city. The one I currently go to free, held biweekly and really helps with my talking, even if I do screw up my sentence structure from time to time.

 

[Porcile]

If you're that miserable about your speaking ability then log out of GAF and go all Japanese with your media for three months.

 

[Hypron]

Speaking of speaking, I found that my university has a Japanese conversation club. From what I understand they have a 1-2 hour discussion session every week. I also looked at the club's Facebook page and quite a few of the members have Japanese names, which is promising. They start meetings next month once the school semester start, so I'll make sure to join them. Should be fun!

 

[TheSporkWithin]

If you're that miserable about your speaking ability then log out of GAF and go all Japanese with your media for three months.

Oh shit, shots fired!

(this is very true. Investing time in Japanese that you were previously investing in other hobbies is an excellent way to magically speed up your learning)

Speaking of speaking, I found that my university has a Japanese conversation club. From what I understand they have a 1-2 hour discussion session every week. I also looked at the club's Facebook page and quite a few of the members have Japanese names, which is promising. They start meetings next month once the school semester start, so I'll make sure to join them. Should be fun!

Just to be clear, do you mean they are Japanese people with Japanese names? Or are they people who named themselves あかひこ because they think it sounds cool and they have red hair? Hopefully yours is better, but the only Japanese conversation clubs I've visited were really awful.

 

[Hypron]

Just to be clear, do you mean they are Japanese people with Japanese names? Or are they people who named themselves あかひこ because they think it sounds cool and they have red hair? Hopefully yours is better, but the only Japanese conversation clubs I've visited were really awful.

Well I don't know them personally, but they look East Asian so unless they are Korean/Chinese weeaboos I'm pretty sure they're Japanese.

 

[Jintor]

They could be tho

 

[Porcile]

It's not shots fired. Just common sense. We can't all be in a natural Japanese environment like a school or workplace. So the best thing to do is to just switch off as much English as possible in the world around you.

 

[Hypron]

They could be tho

Well I guess I'll need to go there to check. I can always quietly bail out if people start busting out the waifu pillows

 

[Beckx]

do it now?

do you watch dramas at all? just watch heaps of dramas and write down everything you don't understand. did wonders for me and made me sound less stiff.

Talk to yourself. In your head is fine, but out loud is better. If you read, read out loud, and repeat phrases that come out poorly.

Do you have any Japanese friends to talk with? If not, why not try searching to see if there's any language exchange groups within your city. The one I currently go to free, held biweekly and really helps with my talking, even if I do screw up my sentence structure from time to time.

Thanks. I should probably be a little more clear, my frustration right now isn't so much that I don't feel like I sound "right" speaking, but rather that I feel like I have to pause and put together a jigsaw puzzle before I can say something.

I do shadowing practice and once I know what I'm going to say, it's fine. The problem is knowing. Maybe it's just the level I'm at. Example: I was doing an exercise to say what people have decided to do using ～ことにする. It would take me 30 seconds of stumbling to grammatically construct the sentence. Speaking it again clearly after that was fine.

I think the above suggestions are all things that will help. Dramas to see and hear people speak, trying to do more thinking and speaking out loud other than just canned shadowing, and finding a person to speak with. I met a guy on the train a few months back who hired a college student as a tutor to learn to speak Chinese. I might try that route.

I also wonder, or hope, that part of this is just more frustration with where I am in my studies, about to move to intermediate. Even with outside study I don't have enough knowledge to consume media without stopping every sentence to replay it multiple times and look things up (and that's just kids shows!). I think moving to Tobira will help since at that point I have to work in a fully Japanese language environment.

Apologies for venting or if this kind of post is not what the thread is for.

 

[Resilient]

Thanks. I should probably be a little more clear, my frustration right now isn't so much that I don't feel like I sound "right" speaking, but rather that I feel like I have to pause and put together a jigsaw puzzle before I can say something.

I do shadowing practice and once I know what I'm going to say, it's fine. The problem is knowing. Maybe it's just the level I'm at. Example: I was doing an exercise to say what people have decided to do using ～ことにする. It would take me 30 seconds of stumbling to grammatically construct the sentence. Speaking it again clearly after that was fine.

I think the above suggestions are all things that will help. Dramas to see and hear people speak, trying to do more thinking and speaking out loud other than just canned shadowing, and finding a person to speak with. I met a guy on the train a few months back who hired a college student as a tutor to learn to speak Chinese. I might try that route.

I also wonder, or hope, that part of this is just more frustration with where I am in my studies, about to move to intermediate. Even with outside study I don't have enough knowledge to consume media without stopping every sentence to replay it multiple times and look things up (and that's just kids shows!). I think moving to Tobira will help since at that point I have to work in a fully Japanese language environment.

Apologies for venting or if this kind of post is not what the thread is for.

that's what this thread is for so chillax.

just don't get complacent and practice everything you wrote about. 3 months you'll have turned it around. it's a journey mate.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Thanks. I should probably be a little more clear, my frustration right now isn't so much that I don't feel like I sound "right" speaking, but rather that I feel like I have to pause and put together a jigsaw puzzle before I can say something.

That's what I thought you meant when I wrote that post. Talking to yourself and reading things out loud will help with that. The former is an exercise in organizing your thoughts, and the latter helps you to better pin down the "flow" of the language.

 

[Kilrogg]

resilient is your avatar supposed to be a sontarran or something cuz he looks like a potato head

i know it's completely off-topic but it's been eating at me for months

 

[Beckx]

That's what I thought you meant when I wrote that post. Talking to yourself and reading things out loud will help with that. The former is an exercise in organizing your thoughts, and the latter helps you to better pin down the "flow" of the language.

Got it. I'm bad at doing the former and know I have to start. Maybe I'll give myself a topic note for my morning commute and talk to myself in the car like a crazy person.

 

[Aizo]

I can't take res seriously ever because his avatar. Sorry, man.

 

[Resilient]

resilient is your avatar supposed to be a sontarran or something cuz he looks like a potato head

i know it's completely off-topic but it's been eating at me for months

you already asked me this one. commediue drew it for me and i just kept it. if you ever ask me again this relationship is owari.

I can't take res seriously ever because his avatar. Sorry, man.

どんまいです。

 

[Kilrogg]

you already asked me this one. commediue drew it for me and i just kept it. if you ever ask me again this relationship is owari.

I did? Crap, I must be going senile... What is it supposed to represent, though?

Spoiler

The relationship is in your mind, buddy. Sorry to break your heart.

 

[Resilient]

I did? Crap, I must be going senile... What is it supposed to represent, though?

Spoiler

The relationship is in your mind, buddy. Sorry to break your heart.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/breaking-bad-comics/photos

 

[Gradivus]

Well, I've been using wanikani for about a week now, just reached Level 3 around an hour ago.

While the some radicals are named strangely, the program started off slow for Level 1 & 2, I'm really enjoying this memorising kanji experience. It really does save me time from making flash cards for myself. I guess the bit of the downside is if you already know lots of kanji, you can't skip over them and read directly into the unknown territories.

They say with this site that it usually take 2 years to learn the 2000+ kanji and 6000+vocab thou I'll going to try and master them a bit quicker (or so I hope) then set myself some new Japanese learning goals afterwards.

 

[Hypron]

Well, I've been using wanikani for about a week now, just reached Level 3 around an hour ago.

While the some radicals are named strangely, the program started off slow for Level 1 & 2, I'm really enjoying this memorising kanji experience. It really does save me time from making flash cards for myself. I guess the bit of the downside is if you already know lots of kanji, you can't skip over them and read directly into the unknown territories.

They say with this site that it usually take 2 years to learn the 2000+ kanji and 6000+vocab thou I'll going to try and master them a bit quicker (or so I hope) then set myself some new Japanese learning goals afterwards.

One of the things about Wanikani is that to go faster you need to both do your reviews on time (not too hard) and also get your reviews right; unlike Anki you can't just keep on adding cards since Wanikani won't give then to you until you get 90% of new ones to guru level.

Give this website a go to see an estimate of your completion date based on your current speed:

https://www.idigtech.com/wanikani/#progress

 

[Gradivus]

One of the things about Wanikani is that to go faster you need to both do your reviews on time (not too hard) and also get your reviews right; unlike Anki you can't just keep on adding cards since Wanikani won't give then to you until you get 90% of new ones to guru level.

Give this website a go to see an estimate of your completion date based on your current speed:

https://www.idigtech.com/wanikani/#progress

Oh, wow. Thanks for the link.

Doing reviews shouldn't be too hard, I work at home, So I can review myself throughout the day if needed to be.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Genki seems unusually expensive in Europe vs the US + Japan

Japanese for Busy People seems significantly cheaper, but Genki sounds more my style.

Current Status:
Taking beginner night classes once a night every week, know all hirigana + most katakana. Hoping to do JLPT level 5 in December.

 

[Resilient]

Genki seems unusually expensive in Europe vs the US + Japan

Japanese for Busy People seems significantly cheaper, but Genki sounds more my style.

Current Status:
Taking beginner night classes every week, know all hirigana + most katakana. Hoping to do JLPT level 5 in December.

How many hours do you study a week?

With 10 months of study you should be aiming for N3!

 

[Zeouterlimits]

How many hours do you study a week?

With 10 months of study you should be aiming for N3!

4 including classes? I work late most days and don't really get to share chores etc.

4 x 4 x 10 = 160 hours.

(That's encouraging though, thank you)

 

[KtSlime]

4 including classes? I work late most days and don't really get to share chores etc.

4 x 4 x 10 = 160 hours.

(That's encouraging though, thank you)

It may be hard, but you should try to find a bit more time to study than 4 hours a week. I don't know how good your memory is, or if you are primarily an audio or visual learner, but I recommend at least aiming for an hour a day, every day. N3 isn't particularly hard, and it just scratches the surface of Japanese, but there is a bit of ground that must be covered, especially if you don't have any prior knowledge of the language.

Good on you having hiragana and katakana down, that should help greatly.

がんばって！

 

[Zeouterlimits]

It may be hard, but you should try to find a bit more time to study than 4 hours a week. I don't know how good your memory is, or if you are primarily an audio or visual learner, but I recommend at least aiming for an hour a day, every day. N3 isn't particularly hard, and it just scratches the surface of Japanese, but there is a bit of ground that must be covered, especially if you don't have any prior knowledge of the language.

Good on you having hiragana and katakana down, that should help greatly.

がんばって！

That is why I was aiming for N5, not N3, 😅.

An hour a day, everyday. That sounds quite beyond me, which is a bit embarrassing. I lack that drive.
As part of my new plan I was thinking 15 minutes a day, plus the two hours of classes and two hours of weekend study.

 

[Resilient]

That is why I was aiming for N5, not N3, 😅.

An hour a day, everyday. That sounds quite beyond me, which is a bit embarrassing. I lack that drive.
As part of my new plan I was thinking 15 minutes a day, plus the two hours of classes and two hours of weekend study.

what's your goal for trying to get N5?

 

[Zeouterlimits]

what's your goal for trying to get N5?

That's a good question.
Achievement? A hobby / personal improvement goes more effectively when you have a tangible goal?

I don't have bigger goals than that (because I lack those goals & related motivation in general).

Spoiler

Side note, I'm actually happy ye are challenging me on this, it is nice to be asked this and pushed.

 

[Resilient]

That's a good question.
Achievement? A hobby / personal improvement goes more effectively when you have a tangible goal?

I don't have bigger goals than that (because I lack those goals & related motivation in general).

Spoiler

Side note, I'm actually happy ye are challenging me on this, it is nice to be asked this and pushed.

that's fair enough.

honestly with 15min a day you may find yourself a bit disappointed if you don't end up passing N5, as i don't think it's enough time allotted to study. you might find yourself wanting to study more if you become more interested though. i'd recommend following the advice from KtSlime, but no major loss if you don't as you're doing it for fun at the moment.

don't be afraid to post in the thread no matter how simple the question.

 

[ikuze]

I've been studying Japanese for years now and despite some hype moments that lasted only a few weeks each, I failed N4 last December. People say even a few minutes each day will take you to your goal, shortly but safely. That's bullshit. Believe me. How long do you want to stay at the beginner level only being able to use the most basic things. It's really frustrating. If you want to get somewhere, invest as much time as possible every single day in the Japanese language or you will end up like me
I'm not talking hours and hours, but 15 minutes will bring you nowhere.

 

[Jintor]

Throw yourself in and drown is my advice.

Just remember to come up for air once in a while.

 

[Porcile]

Go so deep that you end up learning Chinese instead.

 

[Kurita]

do it now?

do you watch dramas at all? just watch heaps of dramas and write down everything you don't understand. did wonders for me and made me sound less stiff.

Actually I'd say that watching a reality show like Terrace House is even better if you want to hear natural Japanese, cause they're not reciting lines. The structure of the sentences can be confusing if you're not used to hearing "real life" conversations, but that's how of most people will talk to you in a casual context so I'd say it can help.