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[Nakho]

This is a screen cap of my grammar writing list. You do 10 per day. Study the points beforehand, properly - use JGRAM or the 3 dictionaries, then create a list of English triggers, as Porcile said. Then, write them on the board. You're done for Day 1. Next day, study 10 new points, create a list of triggers. Write Day 1, then Day 2. Rinse, repeat.

Answers:

から・・・まで
で
ながら
たい
たくない
～ることがある
～ないことがある
～てください
～ないでください
～てから
～たことがある
～たことがない
「私」は・が「人・学校・会社・国など」に・から「もの」をもらう
「人」は・が「私・私の家族」に「もの」をくれる

「人１」は・が「人２」に「もの」をあげる
～から
ことになる
ないことになる
かどうか
ようにする
～だす
「私」は・が「人・学校・会社・国など」に・から～てもらう
「人」は・が「私・私の家族」に～てくれる
「人１」は・が「人２」に～てあげる
「人」は・が「動物・植物」にーてやる
～始める
～終わる

Thanks, that clears it up a lot.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

When do I move on to kanji/katakana? I'm currently taking a class as an elective at my college and I'm wondering is it OK to write in plain hiragana or do I need to start the other two asap to start writing? I just want to try my hand at HelloTalk to practice more.
Thanks!

 

[Aizo]

Start them asap! I stopped using Hellotalk a while ago, when they put all the ads in and weird people were talking to me. Enjoy it.

 

[Aubergine]

I'm not sure how anyone doing the whiteboard method and working full time is supposed to make quick progress. After a full month of adding to the Kanji and grammar lists, I can't find time to finish them in my 4 or so hours of study time after work at night before I have to wake up and start the day again. I've already sacked my sleep schedule, I'm down to getting roughly 5-6 hours of sleep a night which is the bare minimum I need to function as a teacher I've found, so there's no wiggle room there.

I've gotten to the point that I just sort of suspend my review upon reaching my limit and continuing it the next day, but that means I'm not adding new Kanji and grammar as often, pushing back the schedule. I suppose I'm not in any particular hurry, but I'd like to be N1 ready by the next test time in the summer. Any pointers from those who are Full-Time work + whiteboard method veterans? I'm neither down, nor out, rather I just need to see if I can optimize my study.

 

[QuantumSquid]

Mi o sutete mo, myōri wa sutezu.

 

[Kilrogg]

I'm not sure how anyone doing the whiteboard method and working full time is supposed to make quick progress. After a full month of adding to the Kanji and grammar lists, I can't find time to finish them in my 4 or so hours of study time after work at night before I have to wake up and start the day again. I've already sacked my sleep schedule, I'm down to getting roughly 5-6 hours of sleep a night which is the bare minimum I need to function as a teacher I've found, so there's no wiggle room there.

I've gotten to the point that I just sort of suspend my review upon reaching my limit and continuing it the next day, but that means I'm not adding new Kanji and grammar as often, pushing back the schedule. I suppose I'm not in any particular hurry, but I'd like to be N1 ready by the next test time in the summer. Any pointers from those who are Full-Time work + whiteboard method veterans? I'm neither down, nor out, rather I just need to see if I can optimize my study.

It's okay. Add pitch accents on top of that and you'll be dead by next week. But I figured I might kill two birds with one stone since I never properly learnt pitch accents with new words before. Should do wonders for my accent.

But yeah, it is grueling for people like us who go to work everyday. I skip a day here and there, mostly because I got a new toy - read: new laptop - and have a few social encounters every now and again, but I still somehow manage to get back into it and catch up.

That said, it might be due to the fact that I already know by heart 95% of what I've been studying so far. My friend and I wanted to do the whole thing from scratch even though we already have the JLPT N2 and N1 respectively.

The one hard part is memorizing the compounds. Most of them we already know, but we tend to focus so much on the writing and reading that we tend to gloss over the few words we don't know already well if at all.

We'll probably start doing rotations after a while. The hardcore method is simply not tenable with a full-time job.

Also... I'm an expert is not coming back, is he? It's been weeks I think. Such a shame for this thread :/.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

Can someone help me with a sentence please? Context is formal business mail/email(keigo). "Please send over the final contract ".


Here are my guesses lol

最後の申し入れを送ってくれてありがとう。

最後の申し入れを送って下さいでいっらしゃいます。



ありがとう

 

[Aizo]

Mi o sutete mo, myōri wa sutezu.

Making my eyes bleed. Whenever I read romaji sentences, I can't help but hear someone reading in the most white, American accent in my head.

 

[cvxfreak]

Can someone help me with a sentence please? Context is formal business mail/email(keigo). "Please send over the final contract ".


Here are my guesses lol

最後の申し入れを送ってくれてありがとう。

最後の申し入れを送って下さいでいっらしゃいます。



ありがとう

You shouldn't rely on direct translations of English in this case.

契約書の最終ドラフトをご送付いただければありがたいです。

^That's my preferred message. 最終ドラフト is optional.

 

[Cirventhor]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but I searched through the thread without finding a definitive answer.

I'm just starting out learning Japanese, and am looking for a good J-E/E-J dictionary app on iOS. I would like to avoid using the myriad EDICT-based apps (Midori etc.), as from what I've gathered they're not the most reliable, or most useful to new learners.

The app I'm using at the moment is based on the Oxford Japanese Mini Dictionary (link). While it seems accurate and decent enough, there is very little support for Kanji-searching.

Any tips for good J-E/E-J apps would be welcome. I'm open to using apps with Japanese interfaces, if that's the best way to go.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but I searched through the thread without finding a definitive answer.

I'm just starting out learning Japanese, and am looking for a good J-E/E-J dictionary app on iOS. I would like to avoid using the myriad EDICT-based apps (Midori etc.), as from what I've gathered they're not the most reliable, or most useful to new learners.

The app I'm using at the moment is based on the Oxford Japanese Mini Dictionary (link). While it seems accurate and decent enough, there is very little support for Kanji-searching.

Any tips for good J-E/E-J apps would be welcome. I'm open to using apps with Japanese interfaces, if that's the best way to go.

The cheapest option, while still being a pretty decent dictionary with a satisfactory app, is probably the ウィズダム英和・和英辞典２, at $24. It's the only app I've bought, and it's usually reliable enough, though the J>E side is a bit lacking compared to the E>J side. As a result I always keep my denshi jisho handy whenever I'm doing anything high-level in terms of reading or writing.

The 新和英大辞典 (AKA the green goddess) is the best J>E dictionary on the market, hands down. It's only J>E though, and it's pricey at $60 (currently on sale from its usual price of $120). There's a counterpart, the 新英和大辞典, which is the same price. I can't vouch for the apps, just the content, but they look decent enough.

If you want something cheaper but a bit better than The Wisdom, try the ジーニアス英和(第5&#29256・和英(第3&#29256辞典 app which is available from the same developer for $41. It's a very good dictionary, and I actually prefer its E>J side to the one above in most cases (it's on my denshi jisho too).

 

[Hypron]

Speaking of dictionaries, do you guys know of any good dictionary for Windows?

The J->J and J->E dictionaries on OSX are great (and really convenient to use) and I wish I had access to something similar on Windows (online dictionaries aren't as good/practical sadly).

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Looks like I'm an Expert is indeed gone for good. He just posted on the learnjapanese subreddit. Let's see if the whiteboard method can catch up with the new Duolingo course! （笑）

EDIT: Man, I don't know if this thing is going to even maintain positive karma. 45% upvotes so far. I'm probably gonna take a beating for posting in it.

 

[leecming]

Why did he get banned?

 

[Beckx]

RIP in politics

Redt of ya'll N1-ers gotta step it up now

Why did he get banned?

I mean his tag read "i am only nice to people so i don't get banned."

 

[marimorimo]

Looks like I'm an Expert is indeed gone for good. He just posted on the learnjapanese subreddit. Let's see if the whiteboard method can catch up with the new Duolingo course! （笑）

LOL, I went to check it out but the post had been deleted. But the comments remain in perpetuity.

If anything it just shows how trustful the people are here on the NeoGAF Japanese thread as evidenced by the many loyal followers of the whiteboard method. Reddit moderators instantly labeled it as snakeoil. Just a year ago I was one of only two or three other people who were vehemently opposed to it (or should I say suggesting saner alternatives before being shot down). I thought it was baffling, but I've since gotten used to the rather, uh, radical study methods proposed by people here. Like a few pages back somebody said they knew someone who learned how to converse in English without having practiced before, therefore you don't necessarily have to practice conversation... It's like there's something about the study of the Japanese language that really cranks up the rebellion and eccentricity factor. Or maybe we're all so desperate to learn Japanese we'll down anything hook, line, and sinker.

But hey, if XYZ method gets you studying (and keeps you progressing), why not do it?

 

[Nachos]

LOL, I went to check it out but the post had been deleted. But the comments remain in perpetuity.

If anything it just shows how trustful the people are here on the NeoGAF Japanese thread as evidenced by the many loyal followers of the whiteboard method. Reddit moderators instantly labeled it as snakeoil. Just a year ago I was one of only two or three other people who were vehemently opposed to it (or should I say suggesting saner alternatives before being shot down). I thought it was baffling, but I've since gotten used to the rather, uh, radical study methods proposed by people here. Like a few pages back somebody said they knew someone who learned how to converse in English without having practiced before, therefore you don't necessarily have to practice conversation... It's like there's something about the study of the Japanese language that really cranks up the rebellion and eccentricity factor. Or maybe we're all so desperate to learn Japanese we'll down anything hook, line, and sinker.

But hey, if XYZ method gets you studying (and keeps you progressing), why not do it?

My problem (which I posted in that thread) is that I don't think Expert thought through how the post was likely to be received before making it. Groups and communities each have different dynamics. You can't just show up out of the blue in a new community, one which has its own history and culture, and act exactly as you did in the old one. He even admitted that he was making his very first Reddit post, which shows that he had no awareness of how the site even works in general. He's just one guy, making claims that are going to seem outlandish or straight-up bullshit to the vast majority of people (and even those who are willing to entertain it are going to approach it with a heavy amount of skepticism). The Subreddit has enough people on it of a fluent enough level contributing material and guides for about the learning process and how it generally, which, as time goes on and as more people follow it, is going to be increasingly taken as gospel. Anything speaking to the contrary, much less without any concrete evidence, is going to be met with resistance. Expert's usual persona only exacerbated that.

He's an unvetted heretic in their eyes, which is 100% understandable. I just hope he does take my suggestion of looking into making a Subreddit. As much shit as I've just talked, I still really like him, and it'd be a shame to lose all contact with him.

 

[marimorimo]

My problem (which I posted in that thread) is that I don't think Expert thought through how the post was likely to be received before making it. Groups and communities each have different dynamics. You can't just show up out of the blue in a new community, one which has its own history and culture, and act exactly as you did in the old one.

I have to admit, back then he ticked me off so much I was just arguing for the sake of arguing. I must have been bored with a lot of time on my hands.

I actually have a slightly better opinion of his intensive 3-month study method after (inadvertently) doing it for another language and seeing concrete results. I exceeded 3 hours a day, more likely 5-6. Most of that was class time, but I was putting more work in review. No, I didn't use a whiteboard and no, I didn't become fluent. Neither did I study all grammar from beginner to advanced level. I only reviewed what had already been taught in class, plus additional vocabulary. But I went from being unable to read a comic book to reading simple novels, and being unable to speak to being able to express myself, although clumsily, in the space of 3 months. So I do think intensive studying works. But I still don't think you should cram everything there in the space of three months. Just studying N4-N3 level, and knowing the lessons by heart, would already allow you to understand and communicate in Japanese. That, I think, could be achievable in 3 months.

 

[Rutger]

LOL, I went to check it out but the post had been deleted. But the comments remain in perpetuity.

If anything it just shows how trustful the people are here on the NeoGAF Japanese thread as evidenced by the many loyal followers of the whiteboard method. Reddit moderators instantly labeled it as snakeoil. Just a year ago I was one of only two or three other people who were vehemently opposed to it (or should I say suggesting saner alternatives before being shot down). I thought it was baffling, but I've since gotten used to the rather, uh, radical study methods proposed by people here. Like a few pages back somebody said they knew someone who learned how to converse in English without having practiced before, therefore you don't necessarily have to practice conversation... It's like there's something about the study of the Japanese language that really cranks up the rebellion and eccentricity factor. Or maybe we're all so desperate to learn Japanese we'll down anything hook, line, and sinker.

But hey, if XYZ method gets you studying (and keeps you progressing), why not do it?

The core idea of Expert's whiteboard method is always going to work, because it is simply just studying every day. It didn't matter if Expert actually pulled off what he said he did to me, I just liked the idea of having a structured reviewing system that he talked about and I worked that into my studies in my own way. It was a good motivator and it worked wonders for my kanji, when I kept up with it anyways. Things got a little busy and my studies dropped greatly, but it happens.

Having played through the most recent Pokemon game in Japanese though has made me want to get back at it though. It was a fun experience, but I had to rely heavily on a dictionary, and play in kana to speed things up. I want to be better than that.

So I looks I'm back to this thread. I didn't post a lot before, but maybe I can change that this time.

 

[RangerBAD]

It all started because I called expert out to give us his method since he always talked like he was, well, an expert. I don't think it's snake oil, but I figure he probably just slept very little. I don't really think it's for everyone either. Really he was probably the only one that's ever done it (in the way that he described). It was what worked for him. And it's totally possible he did have some prior experience going into it. I don't really think he lied or anything. In the case of the reddit thread, it probably went over badly because no one asked for it. I think he sort of helped people. Most people figured out the whiteboard method wouldn't work for them pretty quick, but they ended finding a method in the end. It did actually motivate some people.

 

[Porcile]

The story about my friend is completely true. The first time we met was the first time she'd ever spoken English conversationally. The second time we met, she was even better. Better than 90% of the of the English speaking gaijin I've met who've lived here in Japan for like 10 years and can't speak a word, can't read a sign, can't write their own address and can't understand the most basic shit a shop assistant says (speaking in extremes here but actually plenty of people like this.) The hard truth for a lot of people to stomach is that she didn't spend a penny to achieve it, and simply worked harder to achieve the results she wanted. She did it because she was more motivated and more open to letting the language fill her brain.

I didn't complete the whiteboard method to its full conclusion, but the results from what I studied in 2 months were more than I could of ever achieved if I just farted about with textbooks or farted about playing Dragon Quest pretending like I was achieving something real and not wasting my time. Actually, it worked so well that it de-motivated me to study when I came here because I was able to understand so much around me.

Been back on the study trail recently to try N1 again in July and I just use the idea of the whiteboard method as a set of principles for learning, the main one being work harder than anyone else and you can be better than them in that same period of time. I appreciate there was a vague element of trollish-ness about I'm an expert's post. I even said as much, many times. I'm not going to suddenly become better than someone who has lived and worked in a Japanese environment for 10 years or devoted their entire education to it. I probably wont even pass the N1 but I sure as hell am going to be better than someone who studied in a less motivated, less stricter fashion within the same period as me. That reality hurts a lot of people, especially weebs and 90% of GAF/reddit.

 

[Resilient]

I'm not sure how anyone doing the whiteboard method and working full time is supposed to make quick progress. After a full month of adding to the Kanji and grammar lists, I can't find time to finish them in my 4 or so hours of study time after work at night before I have to wake up and start the day again. I've already sacked my sleep schedule, I'm down to getting roughly 5-6 hours of sleep a night which is the bare minimum I need to function as a teacher I've found, so there's no wiggle room there.

I've gotten to the point that I just sort of suspend my review upon reaching my limit and continuing it the next day, but that means I'm not adding new Kanji and grammar as often, pushing back the schedule. I suppose I'm not in any particular hurry, but I'd like to be N1 ready by the next test time in the summer. Any pointers from those who are Full-Time work + whiteboard method veterans? I'm neither down, nor out, rather I just need to see if I can optimize my study.

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, busy week.

I finished whiteboard and work full time/over time 5 days a week.

To finish whiteboard I think you need a few things.

1. Hunger/a goal. I wanted to prove expert wrong and finish it, and then pass N1 (I didn't)
2. Expectional circumstances. I was in probably in the least busy period of my career when I did it. After that Feb, there was no way I would ever find the proper time for it. But those 3 months, I made it happen.
3. Time commitment. My study looked like this at the peak of it (final grammar revision and 1600 kanji). Once grammar was finished the whole thing toned down and I didn't go further than 7-8 hours peak.

- wake up at 4am, study until 7:30am (3)
- study 30min on commute to work (30)
- study 1 hour at lunch (1)
- study 30min on commute home (30)
- study from 6:30 to 11:30 (5)

4. Most importantly - your own schedule/method. Experts original post that gets linked around is just one piece of the many nuggets of info he gave. The whiteboard post should probably be glued to those as well. I will go through and combine the best bits of it in the next week.

There is a strong emphasis on making the method into your own method. Something that works for you. I had asked about stuff, and the answer I'd get was along the lines of "this worked for me, doesn't mean it has to work for you".

Remember, I didn't pass N1 after doing this. I finished Feb and took the exam in July. I obviously kept studying, but it wasn't enough. Part of it may have had had to do with the short term memory retention (who knows, if I finished wb in June it's a different story?).

However, it worked. I can read mostly anything. A dictionary is still needed (I think you will never stop learning vocab, at least not for a long time). WB will teach you to read but you won't know the meaning for every word. Just around 6000

My handwriting is very good (and fast). Which is great if that's something you're after.

Hope that helps mate! Granted, after it was all said and done I missed a lot with my social life over 3 months and my girlfriend absolutely hated me. But when it was done, my friends were still my friends (and are), and ny GF respects what I'm trying to achieve. So nothing lost.

 

[Resilient]

re: expert. His avatar is still there so I don't think it's perma. He was probably just trying to see if he could light a fire under the ass of that subreddit.

Spork; I peek in there occasionally and see your posts, but that community is a cesspit. I don't know how you keep posting in it. I mean, the reaction to his post (I didn't see it, expert, wtf would you delete it for lol) says it all.

 

[Resilient]

For anybody doing whiteboard , please read this (from experts reddit post):

It's hard to fit everything from years of discussion on our forum into this reddit post but the guide wasn't even meant for people to pass the JLPT, the guide was meant to motivate people to get over the hurdle of kanji. My method isn't revolutionary, it was just a way to get a huge obstacle out of the way in a relatively short period of time so that actual Japanese study could begin. The biggest point of our community was always the fact that passing JLPT 1 meant nothing. It's the most basic requirement of even saying you understand Japanese. It's the foundation, the building block. Real Japanese study begins from that point on. Again, hard to cram all this stuff into a reddit post since I know this forum isn't used to this length of posts.

Hope that can clarify for some people. If you come out expecting to know everything you'll be disappointed. You need to commit once it's done, saturate yourself in text and listening, and absorb.

 

[Kansoku]

resilient calm down

re: expert. His avatar is still there so I don't think it's perma. He was probably just trying to see if he could light a fire under the ass of that subreddit.

I believe that the avatar - perma thing is a myth.

Spork; I peek in there occasionally and see your posts, but that community is a cesspit. I don't know how you keep posting in it. I mean, the reaction to his post (I didn't see it, expert, wtf would you delete it for lol) says it all.

IIRC he didn't, a moderator did it.

 

[ikuze]

I will go through and combine the best bits of it in the next week.

Please do so!
After I failed the N4 exam, I was really down but now I want to get serious, really serious and think this method could work for me. I got a lot of time for the next months.

 

[Porcile]

I swear Resilient sulked off JapanGAF a while ago because of I'm an expert.

 

[Rutger]

There is a strong emphasis on making the method into your own method. Something that works for you. I had asked about stuff, and the answer I'd get was along the lines of "this worked for me, doesn't mean it has to work for you".

This is what I took from Expert's whiteboard method. It's simply just Expert's system of reviewing.

I was never truly happy with how I was working the reviews into my studies, but what I was doing had me learning faster than anything I did before it. I'm going to see if I can rework things to suit me better this weekend. I need to get back to studying after doing very little in the past few months.

 

[Resilient]

Yeah, I got triggered bad no lie. But the community looks alive now, so I'm back. Is that ok?

 

[Porcile]

Are you going to play Zelda in Japanese like a real weeb? If no, then get out.

 

[Resilient]

I don't play video games. I study, bro ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Kilrogg]

Yeah, I got triggered bad no lie. But the community looks alive now, so I'm back. Is that ok?

no

 

[Kansoku]

Yeah, I got triggered bad no lie. But the community looks alive now, so I'm back. Is that ok?

go back to studying

 

[Beckx]

I believe that the avatar - perma thing is a myth.

it is.

the only thing you can tell from a profile next to the post is if someone got shadow-realm'd, because the entire account is nuked and it just says something weird like "guest" instead of banned.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

LOL, I went to check it out but the post had been deleted. But the comments remain in perpetuity.

If anything it just shows how trustful the people are here on the NeoGAF Japanese thread as evidenced by the many loyal followers of the whiteboard method. Reddit moderators instantly labeled it as snakeoil. Just a year ago I was one of only two or three other people who were vehemently opposed to it (or should I say suggesting saner alternatives before being shot down). I thought it was baffling, but I've since gotten used to the rather, uh, radical study methods proposed by people here. Like a few pages back somebody said they knew someone who learned how to converse in English without having practiced before, therefore you don't necessarily have to practice conversation... It's like there's something about the study of the Japanese language that really cranks up the rebellion and eccentricity factor. Or maybe we're all so desperate to learn Japanese we'll down anything hook, line, and sinker.

But hey, if XYZ method gets you studying (and keeps you progressing), why not do it?

"Snake oil?"

That's some bullshit and you know it. I honestly feel like you're attacking the method just because you clearly do not like expert.

He repeatedly it clear that the method will simply *not* be for everyone, but that it is extremely effective. He laid out a very effective and comprehensive method for people who want to make it their top priority to pass JLPT N1. He did it for free, too. There was absolutely nothing resembling snake oil about it.

You may think that people shouldn't approach Japanese studies that way, but there are people who see the value in doing so.

 

[Resilient]

Please do so!
After I failed the N4 exam, I was really down but now I want to get serious, really serious and think this method could work for me. I got a lot of time for the next months.

OK, bear with me and I'll get it done. A week. Don't let it burn you or get you down. I failed n4 just as I started whiteboard and it was eye opening. It will be for you too.

no

go back to studying

A duck with a hat and anime avatar. You don't scare me.

 

[Hypron]

I've been slacking off recently (I'm keeping up with my Anki/Kanji stuff and speaking practice, but I haven't been reading much nor have I made much progress going through Tobira)... I need to get back to studying more. Maybe I should ask for another ban haha.

Nier and Nioh are both coming out this month too, which is pretty annoying. The latter half of last year was great because there was nothing that interested me, so I never felt like splitting my attention from my Japanese studies. Ha well, at least both games have Japanese voice acting so it could be worse.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I've been slacking off recently (I'm keeping up with my Anki/Kanji stuff and speaking practice, but I haven't been reading much nor have I made much progress going through Tobira)... I need to get back to studying more. Maybe I should ask for another ban haha.

Nier and Nioh are both coming out this month too, which is pretty annoying. The latter half of last year was great because there was nothing that interested me, so I never felt like splitting my attention from my Japanese studies. Ha well, at least both games have Japanese voice acting so it could be worse.

If you have the means, I would recommend just playing them completely in Japanese.

 

[Hypron]

If you have the means, I would recommend just playing them completely in Japanese.

I though about it but my Japanese isn't good enough to do that yet sadly. They're both RPGs with real time cutscenes/dialogue so I'd miss a lot of the plot :/

I'll probably replay them in, say, 6 months to a year, except in full Japanese this time.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

They're both RPGs with real time cutscenes/dialogue so I'd miss a lot of the plot :/

Sounds like some damn fine motivation to improve your Japanese quickly!

I'll probably replay them in, say, 6 months to a year, except in full Japanese this time.

Fair enough, but honestly, what's the likelihood you will? Furthermore, what's the likelihood you'll be confident enough in your Japanese skills to do so in 6 months?

I see this way of thinking a lot when it comes to languages and I always feel like people are really wasting opportunities. Waiting until you're a certain skill level before doing something more often than not means you probably won't ever get to that skill level. You can't grow very much if you stay in your comfort zone.

 

[RangerBAD]

Be prepared for the cost! Unless you can get it locally.

 

[Hypron]

Sounds like some damn fine motivation to improve your Japanese quickly!



Fair enough, but honestly, what's the likelihood you will? Furthermore, what's the likelihood you'll be confident enough in your Japanese skills to do so in 6 months?

I see this way of thinking a lot when it comes to languages and I always feel like people are really wasting opportunities. Waiting until you're a certain skill level before doing something more often than not means you probably won't ever get to that skill level. You can't grow very much if you stay in your comfort zone.

I just feel like it's one step too far. Playing through a classic JRPG with turn by turn dialogue, or even reading a simple Manga would already be stepping outside my comfort zone, but I haven't done that yet. Going straight to full real time dialogue while skipping all the intermediate stuff feels like trying to run before I can walk.

I also want to enjoy the games and it's hard to enjoy a RPG while understanding only 20% of what's being said. Replaying is different on the other hand; you already know the story so it doesn't really matter if you don't understand everything, and you can concentrate on the minute-to-minute dialogue.

I said 6 months because by then I'll have finished Tobira, that speaking/listening practice textbook I'm concurrently doing, and I'll be at about ~1700 Kanji learnt. Will it be enough to feel confident? Of course not, but I'll both know more, have more free time on my hands, and I won't have to fear missing out on the story since I'll already know it.

 

[Alanae]

Speaking of dictionaries, do you guys know of any good dictionary for Windows?

The J->J and J->E dictionaries on OSX are great (and really convenient to use) and I wish I had access to something similar on Windows (online dictionaries aren't as good/practical sadly).

the digital epwing format dictionaries are really good.
on the J>J front you have the 明鏡国語 for its grammar explanations and the 大辞泉, 大辞林 and/or 広辞苑 for the occasional words that it doesn't have.
and for J>E there's the 新和英大辞典 which showers you with example sentences and sometimes adds in short explanations in Japanese as well.

 

[Beckx]

I though about it but my Japanese isn't good enough to do that yet sadly. They're both RPGs with real time cutscenes/dialogue so I'd miss a lot of the plot :/

I'll probably replay them in, say, 6 months to a year, except in full Japanese this time.

you can always play them and if you feel you missed too much, play the NA release later

i have really, really enjoyed playing Persona 5 - it's been my long play since it released. i obviously can't understand everything, but it is fun to push myself and see what i can figure out. sometimes it's frustrating and other times it's exhilarating when you can follow the instructions for a puzzle or whatever.

plus tbh none of this is Murakami or Oe so it's not like it's really hard to follow. (though i wouldn't be surprised if Nioh uses a lot of archaic language)

but then again i'm not doing it as a learning thing & i've been enjoying playing import RPGs since forever ago on Genesis.

 

[Resilient]

Sounds like some damn fine motivation to improve your Japanese quickly!



Fair enough, but honestly, what's the likelihood you will? Furthermore, what's the likelihood you'll be confident enough in your Japanese skills to do so in 6 months?

I see this way of thinking a lot when it comes to languages and I always feel like people are really wasting opportunities. Waiting until you're a certain skill level before doing something more often than not means you probably won't ever get to that skill level. You can't grow very much if you stay in your comfort zone.

Agreed, I kept putting off Persona 5 because I wanted to get to a higher level...waste of time. I ended up starting it in Jan and I regret not doing it earlier (Sept).

If you're studying seriously, and you still want to play games...play in Japanese exclusively. Or stop playing altogether. Like Zefah said. What better motivation to get better at Japanese could there be? (Edit: if you a weeb)

 

[marimorimo]

"Snake oil?"

That's some bullshit and you know it. I honestly feel like you're attacking the method just because you clearly do not like expert.

That were the exact words of the moderators in the reddit thread: snake oil. Not mine.

And I did add after my post that I have a slightly better opinion of his method after doing something similar (accidentally) for another language. Of course, it just goes to show that the more intensively you study, the more you learn. My main criticism of his method was that it was cramming all material from N5-N1 (assuming someone starts from zero or near it) in a short span of time, when cramming has been scientifically proven to be be inefficient in retaining material long-term. Why not shoot for a more moderate goal, one that would guarantee you, at the very least, a working conversational level?

Surprising factoid: in my country, the Japan Foundation holds courses for Japanese language teachers and their minimum required level is N4. N4 and you can officially teach the Japanese language.

The story about my friend is completely true. The first time we met was the first time she'd ever spoken English conversationally. The second time we met, she was even better. Better than 90% of the of the English speaking gaijin I've met who've lived here in Japan for like 10 years and can't speak a word, can't read a sign, can't write their own address and can't understand the most basic shit a shop assistant says (speaking in extremes here but actually plenty of people like this.) The hard truth for a lot of people to stomach is that she didn't spend a penny to achieve it, and simply worked harder to achieve the results she wanted. She did it because she was more motivated and more open to letting the language fill her brain.

Actually, I've always believed your story. My husband was the same. When I first met him I thought he had been taking eikaiwa classes because his English was very good. It turned out he had only taken junior high and high school English classes, the same as 99% of his generation. But he had always been passionnate about English so he became very good at it, despite having had bad teachers who couldn't even speak English.

But then, what are the odds of someone learning how to speak without prior practice (like your friend and my husband), no matter how passionnate they are about the language? It's almost like the lottery. So I can't recommend it as a study method.

But anyway I don't want to do a repeat of last year so I'm going to shut up about study methods now. People should try out whatever method works best for them.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That were the exact words of the moderators in the reddit thread: snake oil. Not mine.

And I did add after my post that I have a slightly better opinion of his method after doing something similar (accidentally) for another language. Of course, it just goes to show that the more intensively you study, the more you learn. My main criticism of his method was that it was cramming all material from N5-N1 (assuming someone starts from zero or near it) in a short span of time, when cramming has been scientifically proven to be be inefficient in retaining material long-term. Why not shoot for a more moderate goal, one that would guarantee you, at the very least, a working conversational level?

Surprising factoid: in my country, the Japan Foundation holds courses for Japanese language teachers and their minimum required level is N4. N4 and you can officially teach the Japanese language.

Fair enough about the snake oil language.

I thought expert laid it out pretty clearly that his method is to establish a base that will let you embark on really learning the language and becoming proficient at it. Set a goal for N1, study like mad, and then from there you will have a very strong base, particularly with Kanji, from which to learn. Kanji is such a huge barrier and cramming really is the best way to just put it behind you. You'll be able to reinforce long term memory easily after that by actually being able to read things.

Why not shoot for a more moderate goal? Well, it depends on how motivated you are. If you really want to learn a language to fluency and perhaps leverage it in your career, then there is no reason not to make it a huge priority. If it's just a hobby, then by all means, take it easy. I don't think it could have been more clear that the method is not meant for everyone.

I don't really know what to say about the N4 requirement for teaching. If someone is actually at N4 level (as in, N3 is still too hard for them to pass), then they really have no business teaching Japanese. Then again, I imagine a lot of English teachers in Japan are at a similarly equivalent level of English proficiency.

 

[marimorimo]

Fair enough about the snake oil language.

I thought expert laid it out pretty clearly that his method is to establish a base that will let you embark on really learning the language and becoming proficient at it. Set a goal for N1, study like mad, and then from there you will have a very strong base, particularly with Kanji, from which to learn. Kanji is such a huge barrier and cramming really is the best way to just put it behind you. You'll be able to reinforce long term memory easily after that by actually being able to read things.

Why not shoot for a more moderate goal? Well, it depends on how motivated you are. If you really want to learn a language to fluency and perhaps leverage it in your career, then there is no reason not to make it a huge priority. If it's just a hobby, then by all means, take it easy. I don't think it could have been more clear that the method is not meant for everyone.

I don't really know what to say about the N4 requirement for teaching. If someone is actually at N4 level (as in, N3 is still too hard for them to pass), then they really have no business teaching Japanese. Then again, I imagine a lot of English teachers in Japan are at a similarly equivalent level of English proficiency.

Fair enough, with kanji there's really no other way around it except for rote memorization (cramming or not). My main counter-argument has always been that you need a solid base in a language, but N1 is not the base (for me it's much lower, namely N4- to N3-ish). Apparently the Japan Foundation agrees too (even if you and I have a different opinion about the suitability for teaching).

 

[Resilient]

I gotta say, seeing the comments in that thread expert posted at r/LearnJapanese...that community is run by a bunch of pricks. Like...how the hell do you grow and foster a community when it's like 1 or 2 people just deciding what (going by that thread) is and isn't "motivating". How is that place nothing more than an echo chamber of what a few people think is the "right" way to study the language? That mod deleted the post because it was demotivating, it couldn't be proven, it was pompous..I mean come on, he got butt hurt for some reason and nuked it, that's all it is.

I think the best parts of this thread (and the last) is the fact that people can argue and debate over ideas and concepts freely. Nobody here is afraid to speak their mind, and most of the time, nobody gets truly upset about it. Regardless of the fact that posts might have a bit of personal bite in them at times, at least the arguments and debates can remain. We don't have someone coming in here and saying, you're flat out wrong, piss off. You're free to tell someone they're wrong, but here you get to explain why. And people listen, and opinions change, and over time you find a new way to do something. Case in point - marimorimo, fully against whiteboard when we first started doing it, and she was able to draw inspiration from it and apply it somewhere else.

I don't care how anybody learns Japanese, and I don't think anybody else here does. But if you're going to dictate how people converse and approach it all..well, to me, that's an outright toxic place to be. I know some posters here post there too. Honestly, it's probably a good thing, so that you can help guide new learners in the right direction. So this isn't a dig at you folk, you're cool (I know Spork posts their often and is often very helpful to newcomers).

 

[Jintor]

In all honesty expert really made me less eager to take part in this community at times. But I think he said stuff that was useful if you could figure out how to apply it to your own situation and motivations.