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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!
- Thread starter I'm an expert
- Start date
So, after going on holiday for two weeks in Japan a month ago, to visit some friends and travel around a bit by myself, I kind of want giving learning Japanese a go again. Afer coming back there are so many things that I didn't get to see or do that I probably want to go back at some point. I kind of think it would be cool to be able to speak some of the language, especially if I would like to go to some of the less touristy places next time.
Also, I did terrible in high school in second languages. When I was in school, in the Netherlands we had 3 mandatory second languages: English, French and German. Obviously English went ok, but French and German were a huge struggle. I would like to figure out if with more effective learning strategies and modern tools like SRSes I can actually pick up a language. And Japanese, which is completely outside the germanic or latin based language groups I'm familiar with, with different alphabets and grammar than I'm familiar with, seems like a fun challenge.
So far I picked up Hiragana and Katakana in a week, which by using some mnemonic systems was surprisingly easy. Tried to practice a bit with Anki to make it stick, seems like they're in there pretty well. I tried doing the Heisig RTK thing for a day (so not really), but then found Wanikani and been doing that for a couple days. I really like the design of it, even though so far it's suuuuper slow.
Kind of prelimenary plan is to continue wanikani. It recomends to start studying grammar at level 5, so was thinking of picking up the Genki books then. It also says to start reading kids manga around level 10 and other simple japanese text around 20, so might do that.
Would let my pace of learning be dictated a lot by WaniKani this way, so I don't know if that's a good thing? At the same time, I'm really skeptical of my rote memorization skills (see my utter failure of doing well in German and French in high school) so maybe having a system that emphasizes taking things slow but getting things down really, really well is a good thing?
Also, I did terrible in high school in second languages. When I was in school, in the Netherlands we had 3 mandatory second languages: English, French and German. Obviously English went ok, but French and German were a huge struggle. I would like to figure out if with more effective learning strategies and modern tools like SRSes I can actually pick up a language. And Japanese, which is completely outside the germanic or latin based language groups I'm familiar with, with different alphabets and grammar than I'm familiar with, seems like a fun challenge.
So far I picked up Hiragana and Katakana in a week, which by using some mnemonic systems was surprisingly easy. Tried to practice a bit with Anki to make it stick, seems like they're in there pretty well. I tried doing the Heisig RTK thing for a day (so not really), but then found Wanikani and been doing that for a couple days. I really like the design of it, even though so far it's suuuuper slow.
Kind of prelimenary plan is to continue wanikani. It recomends to start studying grammar at level 5, so was thinking of picking up the Genki books then. It also says to start reading kids manga around level 10 and other simple japanese text around 20, so might do that.
Would let my pace of learning be dictated a lot by WaniKani this way, so I don't know if that's a good thing? At the same time, I'm really skeptical of my rote memorization skills (see my utter failure of doing well in German and French in high school) so maybe having a system that emphasizes taking things slow but getting things down really, really well is a good thing?
You probably should start Genki right away. If you do wanikani at a consistent pace right from the beginning, kanji are not what's going to hold you back, it's the other aspects of the language. I think learning kanji is something you should do consistently every day, but I think it shouldn't dictate your progression if that makes sense. Where you are at in your textbook is probably a better indication of your overall level.
After you finish Genki I/II you should know enough grammar to read easy stuff like NHK Easy. Then you can go for a textbook like Tobira which contains a lot of reading material appropriate for an intermediate level.
After you finish Genki I/II you should know enough grammar to read easy stuff like NHK Easy. Then you can go for a textbook like Tobira which contains a lot of reading material appropriate for an intermediate level.
Cheers! Guess I'm off to find a place that sells Genki without breaking the bank ^^
And wanikani does both kanji and vocab, which are both kind of intimidating to me because they both rely primarily on rote memorization to pick up. Having a 'with training wheels' app seems somewhat appealing, with the SRS and mnemonic stories and all that integrated. But using wanikani as a sole source of vocab maybe is a bad idea anyway.
Also, met a Japanese girl in my hostel in Osaka while travelling through Japan. Studied linguistics in the UK, likes learning languages and help others with Japanese through things like language exchange sites. She's willing to help me practice, which should be helpful once I reach the level of being able to chat a bit
Yeah the number of reviews will keep on increase until around about level 10 I think. By that point you'll need to put in a solid hour a day at least.
Unless you can find it second hand, the cheapest place to buy Genki is probably Amazon.co.jp, even after including shipping.
Yeah you probably shouldn't rely exclusively on Wanikani to teach you vocab, since the kanji ordering is not based entirely on frequency, and also depends on how complex the kanji is to write. Some easy and widely used words are written using complex kanji that will only be introduced later on. And that's without even talking about words that are usually written in Hiragana or Katana. I think you should probably find an Anki deck that contains all the vocabulary in Genki and go through that at the same time as you are going through the textbook (what works best for me is to go through all the vocabulary for a chapter first and then read through the chapter - that way you're fully concentrated on the grammar rather than having to keep on flicking between the text and the vocab list). There will be some overlap with Wanikani but when you're starting out it's not such a bad thing. And if you want you can suspend cards that you've already encountered on Wanikani.
Also, met a Japanese girl in my hostel in Osaka while travelling through Japan. Studied linguistics in the UK, likes learning languages and help others with Japanese through things like language exchange sites. She's willing to help me practice, which should be helpful once I reach the level of being able to chat a bit
Definitely do that, talking in Japanese is probably the best way to practice
. You don't need to wait for too long either. I started skyping with another gaffer a month after I started learning. At first it was a real struggle, but it was still very useful. Now... I'm still struggling a lot but it has gotten better hahaCheers! Guess I'm off to find a place that sells Genki without breaking the bank ^^
And wanikani does both kanji and vocab, which are both kind of intimidating to me because they both rely primarily on rote memorization to pick up. Having a 'with training wheels' app seems somewhat appealing, with the SRS and mnemonic stories and all that integrated. But using wanikani as a sole source of vocab maybe is a bad idea anyway.
Also, met a Japanese girl in my hostel in Osaka while travelling through Japan. Studied linguistics in the UK, likes learning languages and help others with Japanese through things like language exchange sites. She's willing to help me practice, which should be helpful once I reach the level of being able to chat a bit
I've never got anything out of language exchange sites. They require money for tutors to get anything out of that. People are flaky on italki otherwise. So you're really lucky you met someone in Osaka.
Porcile
Member
If you wanna become good at Japanese then just learn how to use めっちゃ、じゃん、ちょう、やっぱり/やっぱ、とにかく, ちゃう/ちゃった and say "寒くない？" when you walk into an air-conditioned room.
Done and done. Fuck JLPT. I'm not even joking. You might sound like a teenage girl, but I assume that's the standard most GAFfers aspire to.
Done and done. Fuck JLPT. I'm not even joking. You might sound like a teenage girl, but I assume that's the standard most GAFfers aspire to.
No lies detected. My Japanese friends looked at my JLPT books and it was like hieroglyphs to them
ATXAlchemy
Member
You guys forgot ヤバイ.
Complete Guide on How To Japanese
I sometimes overhear my ハーフ friend on phone, and more than 50% of it is basically one form of やばい or another.
Porcile
Member
wakanai and yabai are the two that everyone picks up within like a week.
The other ones I mentioned would help you understand a ton of stupid conversations.
やべー, あっつ, いってぇ, うるせー,つまんねー etc too
The other ones I mentioned would help you understand a ton of stupid conversations.
やべー, あっつ, いってぇ, うるせー,つまんねー etc too
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
No it wasn't. They were just trying to praise your Japanese abilities and dedication to studying by acting like the material was beyond even their capabilities. In reality, just about anyone in middle school or beyond could more or less ace the N1 without studying for it or even knowing the format of the test in advance.
Geno Breaker
Banned
Yep. It's just a more subtle version of 日本語、上手ですね。Sorry to break it to you.
In fairness to the Japanese, every country does that to some extent. I've heard things like "you speak better English than native speakers" so many times now, and it's just not true. Unless they mean "your grammar is more correct than many native speakers', strictly speaking". Fat lotta good that does me
.Yep. It's just a more subtle version of 日本語、上手ですね。Sorry to break it to you.
In fairness to the Japanese, every country does that to some extent. I've heard things like "you speak better English than native speakers" so many times now, and it's just not true. Unless they mean "your grammar is more correct than many native speakers', strictly speaking". Fat lotta good that does me
Probably what they mean. Your usage not the accent. A compliment is a compliment.
Oh, definitely.
What does "bless his heart" mean/imply? Educate me
It means sympathy or feeling sorry for. 'He's working in 100 degree weather. Bless his heart.' I'm Southern. I'm an expert Mainly women say it. So I wouldn't call it equivalent of what we were talking about.
It can also imply the person is inept/dumb/whatever. Said in a pitying way. "He tries so hard, bless his heart" (said of a person who always fails)
Yep. It's just a more subtle version of 日本語、上手ですね。Sorry to break it to you.
In fairness to the Japanese, every country does that to some extent. I've heard things like "you speak better English than native speakers" so many times now, and it's just not true. Unless they mean "your grammar is more correct than many native speakers', strictly speaking". Fat lotta good that does me
you speak better english. the best english.
This reflects many of the same problems I've had as of late, made only worse by not actually having had anyone to speak with on a regular basis in years. For everything else, maintenance does sound about right in respect to what I've been doing, though I am making preparations to resume proper study again.
Not sure if this makes me feel better or worse about the prospect of going for N1 some day. After the horror stories surrounding the difficulty of being certified N1, I had questioned how feasible it would be, even after having passed the JLPT at a lower level in the past.
Porcile
Member
Same thing applies. Middle school kids learn all joyo kanji before some even turn 15, and even before that they can read newspapers without much problem. Of course they wont understand all the concepts within but they would still run rings around even some of the best Japanese learners.
Hm, interesting. Admittedly, my insight regarding the rate at which native speakers generally advance has been limited up until this point.
This, however, isn't much of surprise to me (I'm already aware of the role that immersion plays at any given level). It's still on me for not having proper perspective on how far along someone would be on average with that taken into account, though.
tell me what you think of this sentence. is it good, is it natural, or should it be thrown off a cliff
17日、敦賀気比は危ない試合がありましたよ。3-4の9回に負けていて、9打点を得点して、12－4のが勝ちました。
I am unsure how to work the scores into the sentence (and whether there should be particles) and a lot of other things really. (Tsuruga Kehi is a school in Fukui that I follow during Koshien, they won in Spring 15 and their ace from that year plays for the Fighters' farm squad, so I enjoy following them.)
Edit: I think I fixed it?
17日、敦賀気比は危ない試合がありましたよ。3-4の9回に負けていて、9打点を得点して、12－4のが勝ちました。
I am unsure how to work the scores into the sentence (and whether there should be particles) and a lot of other things really. (Tsuruga Kehi is a school in Fukui that I follow during Koshien, they won in Spring 15 and their ace from that year plays for the Fighters' farm squad, so I enjoy following them.)
Edit: I think I fixed it?
But whether it has a negative impact on you or not is all up to you. It can have a positive one.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I don't see why it would make you feel worse. The N1 is definitely a good goal to have if you are serious about learning the language. Totally something worth shooting for, but not the end goal. It's really just the beginning of the more advanced aspects of the language.
You edited the sentence? As far as I remember, the original is better. I didn't have time to reply when I saw the original post this morning. The new one doesn't make sense.
ack
i believe the original was
敦賀気比は７－１７試合が危ないですよ。最初の9回に3-4負けていて、9打点を得点して、12－4勝ちました。
I noticed reading Hochi sports that they were using の for scores so tried to work that in to how I used scores, and then decided it needed other changes to make that work, and apparently made a mess of it.
Porcile
Member
Let's make things a little practical here. So for you guys who live in Japan or have lived in Japan, what do you think are some useful survival phrases? I was talking to my friend about this and even though we learn a lot of grammar and shit, there's some really common everyday phrases which just aren't taught in a textbook. Maybe you only pick them up through experience or if you are taught these things specifically. For example, a couple easy ones:
お会計お願いします。 (おかいけい　おねがいします。Could I have the bill, please?) This is something even some crusty old Chinese lady is gonna be able to understand.
お先に失礼します。 (おさきに　しつれいします。I'm leaving now and I feel ashamed about it, forgive me please for my insolence.) Actually, I'm sure anyone who works in a school or company would pick up on this one within the first day.
These are examples. You get the point. Others could be: how to answer a phone call in the correct way, how to say you lost something when you go to a kouban etc etc.
お会計お願いします。 (おかいけい　おねがいします。Could I have the bill, please?) This is something even some crusty old Chinese lady is gonna be able to understand.
お先に失礼します。 (おさきに　しつれいします。I'm leaving now and I feel ashamed about it, forgive me please for my insolence.) Actually, I'm sure anyone who works in a school or company would pick up on this one within the first day.
These are examples. You get the point. Others could be: how to answer a phone call in the correct way, how to say you lost something when you go to a kouban etc etc.
TheSporkWithin
Member
The single best thing you can do is learn to rethink things that you don't know how to say into things that you do know how to say, and one of the most versatile tools for doing so is 〜したいですが
How can I get to the train station? 駅に行きたいですが
Where is the milk? 牛乳買いたいですが
Can I use your computer to print these handouts? これをプリントアウトしたいですが
Would it be possible to use some paid time off next week? 来週年休を使いたいですが
How can I get to the train station? 駅に行きたいですが
Where is the milk? 牛乳買いたいですが
Can I use your computer to print these handouts? これをプリントアウトしたいですが
Would it be possible to use some paid time off next week? 来週年休を使いたいですが
I have access to most Japanese TV stations, but I'm having a really hard time finding recommended TV shows that are genuinely good and useful for language learning.
I watch 日テレ's News Every 4 most days, but I'd love a series that was good. I feel like most variety shows are just insufferably dull and I'm sick of channel/DVR searching
I watch 日テレ's News Every 4 most days, but I'd love a series that was good. I feel like most variety shows are just insufferably dull and I'm sick of channel/DVR searching
i searched on youtube for japanese tv live stream..Found a channel which is all about tele marketing. lol it's kinda usefull cuz they keep repeating same thing over and over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMo3F5IouNs
Left it open whole night while working on something. IT is kinda easy to read the on screen text too.
"で" is the one you should use here. 3-4で負けていたが最終的に12-4で勝った。
の is always followed by 名詞. You can use it like 10-9の接戦で○○○が試合を制した。
Lunarwhale
Member
Got a question for those who used Expert's whiteboard method: how did you choose to decide which common words to study per kanji? Example: I'm using KanjiCards.org. For 日, I can get day, sun, case all out of the reading ひ. Should I be focusing more on other readings, though? Also curious how people set up their master lists. Presently, I have the (kana) readings, associated vocab, and English translation on a sheet of paper for the self-quiz.
Still switching back and forth between whether I want to introduce a new kanji to any of these (i.e when studying 日, whether or not to also get 々 for 日々 or just focus on the 日 part for now). I'm starting to get back into the "don't stress how and just do it" mindset of studying, but I'm interested to see if anyone has any advice for how to approach each individual one so that I don't waste too much time on any one kanji - especially those with multiple readings.
Still switching back and forth between whether I want to introduce a new kanji to any of these (i.e when studying 日, whether or not to also get 々 for 日々 or just focus on the 日 part for now). I'm starting to get back into the "don't stress how and just do it" mindset of studying, but I'm interested to see if anyone has any advice for how to approach each individual one so that I don't waste too much time on any one kanji - especially those with multiple readings.
Here is my advice which I swear I give with good intentions
If you're getting stuck with this concept at 日 just stop now.
Pick 3 words, 5 if there's a few decent looking words for that kanji and move on before you give yourself an anxiety attack.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Does anyone know a website or youtube channel, with listening CDs and tests for training?
For now I want specifically for N4 training and it would be also helpful if the site offered the text of the audio too.
For now I want specifically for N4 training and it would be also helpful if the site offered the text of the audio too.
Lunarwhale
Member
hah yeah I think the (re)starting anxiety got the better of me when I got going last night. I got about 3-5 words each out of the first 25 kanji that I did. Getting more into the "fuck it, still learning" mindset now and feeling good about the process.
Yup. This is key. Remember that it's just vocab. Some kanji have like 10 useful words, mixed with different readings. Fuck it. You're learning.