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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!
- Thread starter I'm an expert
- Start date
You're welcome. Yeah it's great, in the time it takes me to walk to university I can read 2/3 articles. It's a really enjoyable and time efficient way to practice.
sackboy2197
Member
Good luck guys 
PaulBizkit
Member
Just found this thread. I'm aiming to take December's jlpt exam (level 4), been studying since january at a fast pace (my teacher burns through the 日本語チャレンジ units like crazy)
難しそうでも、頑張ります。
難しそうでも、頑張ります。
I'm honestly not sure I'll pass, the mogi test was easier I think, lol.
Yup! Lol. Though the room was tiny this time, when I took N3 it was at a much larger university (Musashi University, I think).
I currently working through N2 grammar with the Shin Kanzen Master book.
Here's a grammar point I don't really get:
夫は家族にかけまいとして、会社を辞めたことを話してくれなかった。
I'm not certain what the まい is doing here, especially in combination with として. The section deals with proposals and expressing ones volition.
I guess it means something like:
"Because he didn't want to worry his family, my husband didn't say he left the company."
Here's a grammar point I don't really get:
夫は家族にかけまいとして、会社を辞めたことを話してくれなかった。
I'm not certain what the まい is doing here, especially in combination with として. The section deals with proposals and expressing ones volition.
I guess it means something like:
"Because he didn't want to worry his family, my husband didn't say he left the company."
I'm not too familiar with this structure, but the way I understand it, yeah, it basically means "because there's no way [he]..." I'll let others confirm though.
Remember that the まい form of verbs is essentially the same as ないだろう as far as meaning is concerned. そんなわけないだろう, means the same thing as そんなわけはあるまい。
I assume you forgot to type 心配を? The sentence doesn't make much sense otherwise.
Oh yes, forgot 心配を lol
What confused me is that this structure was introduced together with the ~(よ
うか ~まいか structure as in: 難しそうな仕事なので、引き受けようか引き受けまいかだいぶ迷ったが、思い切ってやってみることにした。which I would translate as "whether ~ or ~". I can't see the reason why they lump them together, especially since there are more entries for different usages/meanings of まい. Anyway, thanks for the answer!
まい is basically the negative of よう, which applies not only to the conjectural meaning it can have, but also to the "lets do x" and the ようとする = try to do meaning.
The latter is which its being used for here.
The difference -まいとする has with -ようとしない is that the latter is "to not try to do something" and the former is "to try to not do something"
まい can be attached to the 未然形 form of a verb (basically its the conjugation you add -ない to when you negate) or can simply just be attached after the 終止形 (dictionary form).
the former of these is being used here.
I'm struggling heavily with the usage of の/こと/のだ.
So I have read that to treat verbs as nouns, we have to add の or こと to them. My first thought was "what does that mean?", because it is almost automatic in English for me. I realized that it means that the verb will become "to ___" or "____ - ing". Is that correct? Tae Kim does a very poor job explaining that, and is hard to understand if you are unaware of all the technical words.
If that is the case, do these sentences work?
走るのが好きだ。I like running.
ステーキを食べるのが嫌いだ。I hate eating steak.
It also says we can do the same with adjectives, to create "being ___".
楽しいのは好きだ。 I like being fun.
If yes, could I just substitute こと in when I wanted?
Another thing that confuses me about の, is how it replaces a noun. Or how のだ works... Would anyone have any other websites to read about this information other than Tae Kim? I'm thinking of searching through A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar to maybe solidify my knowledge.
So I have read that to treat verbs as nouns, we have to add の or こと to them. My first thought was "what does that mean?", because it is almost automatic in English for me. I realized that it means that the verb will become "to ___" or "____ - ing". Is that correct? Tae Kim does a very poor job explaining that, and is hard to understand if you are unaware of all the technical words.
If that is the case, do these sentences work?
走るのが好きだ。I like running.
ステーキを食べるのが嫌いだ。I hate eating steak.
It also says we can do the same with adjectives, to create "being ___".
楽しいのは好きだ。 I like being fun.
If yes, could I just substitute こと in when I wanted?
Another thing that confuses me about の, is how it replaces a noun. Or how のだ works... Would anyone have any other websites to read about this information other than Tae Kim? I'm thinking of searching through A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar to maybe solidify my knowledge.
の and こと are interchangeable as far as turning verbs into nouns or nominalizing them ("I like running" etc.) like you've described.
楽しいのは好きだ。would translate to something like "I like the fun one". As in someone asks you which thing you like and you're specifying you like the fun one out of the options presented, as far as I know. The の here would be replacing a noun for whatever this "one' is that was referenced in a previous sentence. Basically, if the topic has already been laid out, Japanese people don't like repeating it over and over again, so の can replace whatever that noun was in subsequent sentences until the subject changes. Sort of how they don't say he/she/the person's name over and over like we do in English when talking about someone and if you translated the Japanese directly in these cases it would go something like "This is my friend Kaneko. Is Japanese. Likes running. Hates eating steak." or whatever. Also the は in your example sounds awkward, so always use が with 好き just to be safe.
If you want to turn an adjective into a noun, drop the final い and add a さ or just add the さ onto a な adjective like しずか ---> しずかさ (quiet ---> quietness). So 楽しさが好きだ。would be "I like fun." I'm not sure if the "begin" in your sentence was a typo or not.
other examples:
長い "long" 長さ "length"
高い "tall" 高さ "height"
You can also use the verb 楽しむ "to enjoy/have fun" and turn it into 楽しみ as another way of turning it into a noun meaning "fun/enjoyment/pleasure/whatever". This doesn't necessarily work with all verbs though, so it's better to look those up.
----------------------------
のだ / んだ / なのだ/ なんだ is a sentence ending construction used for emphasis, clarification or explanation. You use a な if the word before it is a noun or a な adjective. The の turns into ん in casual speech and だ can obviously be substituted with です.
http://forum.koohii.com/thread-6084-post-172890.html#pid172890
The explanation of のだ given in this post might help.
Wow, I am absolutely gutted this morning. My phone - where I do all my anki work - died out of the blue last night. I do regular backups but thanks to being busy and a lot of other stupid excuses, hadn't made one since April. Three months of anki work completely lost. I've been making a custom kanji learning deck where I add 6 kanji + readings + vocab every day. By yesterday I'd done over 1200. So many cards lost. I can't even bear the thought of going back and doing all that over again, but that's the only option. The fact that learning Japanese is more than just anki and the knowledge itself isn't lost is the only thing keeping me going.
Don't be me, back up your anki files regularly.
(._. )
Don't be me, back up your anki files regularly.
(._. )
sackboy2197
Member
Doesn't Anki sync on its own? It's been a while since I used it, but I thought it did (that way you could use the web app for example).
only for smart people who set up accounts, i think. i am one of the stupid ones.
Awesome link, thank you! (^O^)／
Out of boredom and having plenty of free time this summer i finally decided to start learning Japanese by myself!
I am using wanikani, a book for Japanese grammar(in Turkish), Ankii Duolingo and some other flashcard apps on ios.
So far after a week i got Hiragana and 30 kanjis burnt in to my brain.
I spent 2-3 hours each day. Super motivated right now but dont know how long it will last.
Last time i started to learn a new skill i was kinda proud of myself. 2 years ago suddenly i started to work on calligraphy and still going on. So hopefully Japanese will last that long.
My biggest problem is it is difficult to find Turkish resources for Japanese, there are few printed books which i bought one of them which is kinda okeyish but it has too much romanji in it which i am trying to avoid right now.
And English resources are difficult for me. Since Turkish is way waaaay closer to Japanese than English, whenever i use an English source first i try to think in english translate it to Turkish. And they always try to give you the feeling(?) of Japanese which is a waste of time for me it is quite similar in many ways.
My plan is after hiragana start learning katakana and add more kanjis. Meanwhile i practice basic grammar little by little but still not diving in to it. First I just wanna read hiragana and katakana smoothly. (also more kanji lol)
I don't plan to write so i dont study stroke orders. I don't plan to talk too at least for now so i am not practicing pronouncation which is not a big deal tho reading romanji is quite easy for a turkish speaker.
I am using wanikani, a book for Japanese grammar(in Turkish), Ankii Duolingo and some other flashcard apps on ios.
So far after a week i got Hiragana and 30 kanjis burnt in to my brain.
I spent 2-3 hours each day. Super motivated right now but dont know how long it will last.
Last time i started to learn a new skill i was kinda proud of myself. 2 years ago suddenly i started to work on calligraphy and still going on. So hopefully Japanese will last that long.
My biggest problem is it is difficult to find Turkish resources for Japanese, there are few printed books which i bought one of them which is kinda okeyish but it has too much romanji in it which i am trying to avoid right now.
And English resources are difficult for me. Since Turkish is way waaaay closer to Japanese than English, whenever i use an English source first i try to think in english translate it to Turkish. And they always try to give you the feeling(?) of Japanese which is a waste of time for me it is quite similar in many ways.
My plan is after hiragana start learning katakana and add more kanjis. Meanwhile i practice basic grammar little by little but still not diving in to it. First I just wanna read hiragana and katakana smoothly. (also more kanji lol)
I don't plan to write so i dont study stroke orders. I don't plan to talk too at least for now so i am not practicing pronouncation which is not a big deal tho reading romanji is quite easy for a turkish speaker.
I am recovering from my self inflicted disaster. The silver lining is that I'm now creating cards using anki on my laptop rather than the phone, then syncing it to use on my phone, and it's way faster. Live and learn.
500+ cards lost tho
Welcome! Enjoy the journey. I have only two pieces of advice: (1) learn pronunciation from the start (because bad habits are hard to break) & start working from kana rather than romaji (romaji lies), and (2) always back up your anki cards.
500+ cards lost tho
Welcome! Enjoy the journey. I have only two pieces of advice: (1) learn pronunciation from the start (because bad habits are hard to break) & start working from kana rather than romaji (romaji lies), and (2) always back up your anki cards.
Thanks! I am trying to avoid romaji like a plague. Now i can read Hiragana there is practically no need for romaji. I hate how most of the resources still use them in later lessons :/
ATXAlchemy
Member
1 + 1 = Japanese calligraphy. You'd find out why the stroke orders are the way they are.
I find English as one of the 'sturdier' language out there, and if your native language has books on it, you should go with that. The only real advantage english has, is basically the huge amount of resource material. In my country, the only real reason that Japanese is being 'formally' taught in English is because noone has written a book yet.
Once you get enough knowledge, always try to go with Japanese-Japanese.
TheSporkWithin
Member
They're pretty great if you like reading, yeah. If you already have a Kindle from somewhere else there's no difference. Unfortunately the regular Paperwhite is sold out, so you'll have to buy the "manga" model, which costs more (still cheap with the sale, but more than the other ones were) and gains only storage which is really unnecessary (unless you're reading just insane amounts of manga on it and never want to delete anything).
Oh wow, it's already been a year since I started learning Japanese! Time for a recap I guess!
So, 1 year and 2 days ago, I suddenly decided to start learning Japanese from scratch. I had been thinking about it for literally years, so I ordered Genki and started learning Kana:
2 days later, I started using Anki to learn vocabulary, and I've been using practically every day since then:
Over that one year, I spent more than 50% of my study time on Anki, and covered around 13k flashcards, which probably correspond to around 5k vocabulary. It also includes 1230 Kanji from the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, and some recorded audio from Shadowing 日本語を話しそう！.
As you can see from the first graph, I got a bit too excited in a couple of spots (-40w -25w, -15w), which led to a daily workload that became hard to manage. Each time I had to scale back on the number of cards per day and/or change my study methods a bit. People in this thread were very helpful when I was having doubts, so thanks for that!
Apart from Anki, I went through Genki I & II, as well as the vocab and grammar sections of Tobira. I'm currently going through all the reading and listening sections of the book and finding it really enjoyable. I can now read NHK easy pretty easily.
I also passed N5 last December and sat N4 two weeks ago.
On the other hand, my weakest points are my listening and speaking skills. I've been skyping with another gaffer every week or so, who has been super awesome, and I've been going to a Japanese exchange club that takes place at my university, but I still need a lot more practice.
So, all in all, I could have obviously done more in hindsight, but I think I made some pretty consistent progress through the year.
I feel like outside of learning the language, being able to stick with something like this every single day has been a good boost to my self confidence too. Since I know I can keep up something like this, it makes it easier to undertake other endeavours (for example, after a couple of failed tries over the year I started going to the gym seriously a couple of months ago, because I thought "well, if I can study Japanese for 2 hours a day every single day, going to the gym for an hour and a half 3 times a week can't be that bad"). So yeah, I'm really glad I started learning Japanese!
My goals for the next year are to finish learning all 2,300 kanji and ~8k vocab from the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, go through 新完全マスター・文法/読解 N3 and N2, as well as 総まとめ・聴解 N3 and N2, and finally to sit N3 in December and N2 in July next year. I also want to read more (I bought all 14 volumes of 僕のヒーローアカデミア for example haha) and watch more native material. I would be stoked if I were able to read real NHK in a year's time.
If everything goes well I might be able to both finish my PhD and sit N1 at the end of 2018. Getting both these things done would be a huge relief.
So in summary, thank you all for your help/interesting discussions over the past year!
So, 1 year and 2 days ago, I suddenly decided to start learning Japanese from scratch. I had been thinking about it for literally years, so I ordered Genki and started learning Kana:
2 days later, I started using Anki to learn vocabulary, and I've been using practically every day since then:
that missing day of study was the day after I started using the software haha
Over that one year, I spent more than 50% of my study time on Anki, and covered around 13k flashcards, which probably correspond to around 5k vocabulary. It also includes 1230 Kanji from the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, and some recorded audio from Shadowing 日本語を話しそう！.
As you can see from the first graph, I got a bit too excited in a couple of spots (-40w -25w, -15w), which led to a daily workload that became hard to manage. Each time I had to scale back on the number of cards per day and/or change my study methods a bit. People in this thread were very helpful when I was having doubts, so thanks for that!
Apart from Anki, I went through Genki I & II, as well as the vocab and grammar sections of Tobira. I'm currently going through all the reading and listening sections of the book and finding it really enjoyable. I can now read NHK easy pretty easily.
I also passed N5 last December and sat N4 two weeks ago.
On the other hand, my weakest points are my listening and speaking skills. I've been skyping with another gaffer every week or so, who has been super awesome, and I've been going to a Japanese exchange club that takes place at my university, but I still need a lot more practice.
So, all in all, I could have obviously done more in hindsight, but I think I made some pretty consistent progress through the year.
I feel like outside of learning the language, being able to stick with something like this every single day has been a good boost to my self confidence too. Since I know I can keep up something like this, it makes it easier to undertake other endeavours (for example, after a couple of failed tries over the year I started going to the gym seriously a couple of months ago, because I thought "well, if I can study Japanese for 2 hours a day every single day, going to the gym for an hour and a half 3 times a week can't be that bad"). So yeah, I'm really glad I started learning Japanese!
My goals for the next year are to finish learning all 2,300 kanji and ~8k vocab from the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, go through 新完全マスター・文法/読解 N3 and N2, as well as 総まとめ・聴解 N3 and N2, and finally to sit N3 in December and N2 in July next year. I also want to read more (I bought all 14 volumes of 僕のヒーローアカデミア for example haha) and watch more native material. I would be stoked if I were able to read real NHK in a year's time.
If everything goes well I might be able to both finish my PhD and sit N1 at the end of 2018. Getting both these things done would be a huge relief.
So in summary, thank you all for your help/interesting discussions over the past year!
school is for nerds
school is for you then
I was using Duolingo for about two months or so studying every day and while I felt it was helpful in learning some basics I recently got bored of it.
Can anyone give some tips as to what my next step should be? I care more about speaking than reading/writing to be honest.
My wife is Japanese so I have a partner to practice speaking with, I just don't know what material I should be studying to improve my vocabulary.
Can anyone give some tips as to what my next step should be? I care more about speaking than reading/writing to be honest.
My wife is Japanese so I have a partner to practice speaking with, I just don't know what material I should be studying to improve my vocabulary.
Ugh i am confused... I started to use WaniKani. (i am a pro beginner lol)
So it throws me this kanji;
上
and it says onyomi reading is じょう
kunyomi is うえ
and it throws me this verb 上げる　
and 上 read as あ in the verb... and it says it is kunyomi reading...
So i know a kanji can have more than 2 readings but wanikani says it as if teached to read 上 as あ before but it didn't.
Do kanji get totally new reading when it turns in to a verb?
So it throws me this kanji;
上
and it says onyomi reading is じょう
kunyomi is うえ
and it throws me this verb 上げる　
and 上 read as あ in the verb... and it says it is kunyomi reading...
So i know a kanji can have more than 2 readings but wanikani says it as if teached to read 上 as あ before but it didn't.
Do kanji get totally new reading when it turns in to a verb?
sackboy2197
Member
I think WK is just saying that あ is a kun'yomi reading, not that you should know it beforehand. Generally speaking you'll expect his kun'yomi with verbs, while the other one is used when the kanji is on its own or with other kanji (sometimes, generally it will be the on'yomi).
Sakura
Member
It probably should've given you more than two readings.
It also has other readings like 上る (noboru) or 上手 (uwate), and also just as 上 (kami).
I assume they were just giving the most common readings or something, but it seems like a miss on their part to then give you 上げる when they didn't teach you. And it has nothing really to do with it being because it is a verb, as I gave non verb examples that have different readings to what they showed you.
Some kanji just have more readings that you have to remember.
The way wanikani teaches confused me. It gave one onyomi and kunyomi reading then throws a verb with totally a different reading. As usual i was expecting the verb is gonna have one of the onyomi or kunyomi readings but it throws you an unexpected third reading lol
what embassy event were you at?
how do you people get to all these events? youre in Sydney right? I'm scrubbin out over here.
consulate i guess technically oops
i mean i'm in mainly cos i got in through jet so i get the requisite invite once in a while, which means you meet people from the consulate, clair, the various semi-official groups around sydney etc
went to another meet-up yesterday where i ran into a bunch of the japanese people i met at the consulate dinner. i felt more confident, but i also drank more, so perhaps there is some correlation.
I just had an enlightenment about Kanji and it's onyomi kunyumi readings lol.
I was trying to learn a Kanji and trying to memorize its both readings than trying to figure it out in a word and how it is pronounced. Since there are basic rules and many exceptions its just difficult for me.
Now i think it's much easier to see them as like an English letter with different pronouncations. Like "a" is different in Car and Apple. I see kanji especially jukogus as different words and just try to memorize the pronouncation as a whole. Seeing it as a whole instead of trying to decipher each kanji in a word and trying to figure it out if it's kun or on.
That kinda speed up my kanji reading. Now i just learn their raw meaning. And never try to learn its on or yon reading as a single. I just try to learn the vocabulary with that kanji in it.
I was trying to learn a Kanji and trying to memorize its both readings than trying to figure it out in a word and how it is pronounced. Since there are basic rules and many exceptions its just difficult for me.
Now i think it's much easier to see them as like an English letter with different pronouncations. Like "a" is different in Car and Apple. I see kanji especially jukogus as different words and just try to memorize the pronouncation as a whole. Seeing it as a whole instead of trying to decipher each kanji in a word and trying to figure it out if it's kun or on.
That kinda speed up my kanji reading. Now i just learn their raw meaning. And never try to learn its on or yon reading as a single. I just try to learn the vocabulary with that kanji in it.
Just wait till you notice that certain similar shapes have a certain probability of how their onyomi will be read, once you have enough kanji under your belt you will be able to with high confidence (not 100% though) read many words with kanji you have never seen - just like English.
Haha yeah i am playing the guessing game when i see some radicals that i know
But heck there are so many kanjis with readings simple as た or か , it's better to learn the words that contains them.
Geno Breaker
Banned
First of all, I have to say I'm a total huge beginner who's still 17 and in vacation, so I was wondering if it's totally ok for me to start off with Namasensei's videos. I don't have any resources at the library and I'm strapped for cash atm. One of my pals said he learned some good kana from it, but I'd like to know what you guys think.
oh god i checked one of his videos now, he sounds and acts super annoying!
I am a beginner too and i started learning hiragana and katakana. Shouldn't take more than 10 days to read them smoothly.
There are many free resources for learning kana. Check Tofugu for hiragana;
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/
And download duolingo and tinycard apps for your phone for kana flash cards.(they are free) Once i started to read hiragana smoothly i jumped to other resources for kanji and grammar.
I am trying to avoid resources which uses romaji a lot. My suggestion would be dont rely on romaji. Even tho you read slow like a 5 year old kid, read kana not romaji.
You can start using wanikani.com(free for first 3 levels which would take some to complete) for kanji learning, it starts slow but gets better as you level up. And check the first page of this thread for other resources.