Epsilon-delta
Banned
Even a declining Wade and Allen can put up double the points Kerr and Harper could.
Yea, I was being silly with Rodman with the points. A great rebounder but he also flopped just as much.
Lebron James' NBA Finals record is now 2-3, fails to 3-peat this year
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Even a declining Wade and Allen can put up double the points Kerr and Harper could.
Yea, I was being silly with Rodman with the points. A great rebounder but he also flopped just as much.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
They were finished after Kahwi hit that 3 to give them their first lead.
benjipwns
Banned
When Ben Wallace was with the Cavs for that short period they were pretty interesting at times doing lineups like Z-Wallace-LeBron or Wallace-Varejao-LeBron even though LeBron needed a five year younger version of Wallace.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I love Skip but I guarantee he'll say something stupid like that tomorrow morning. He's going to point out that possession where LeBron missed a three and walked back up and blow it up into this big huge anti-LeBron spiel.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Prime for prime, I would still pick Wade, Bosh, and Allen. 2006 Wade was ridiculous.
No shit lol. No one wouldn't take them in their primes
benjipwns
Banned
Wade's done that kind of thing win or lose for years.
Synergy should measure how long players spend bitching at the refs instead of getting back on defense.
I hate Lebron and the Heat as much as anyone, but I can't agree with that. I'd imagine they wanted to win as much as they did in 2012. Especially Lebron. SA was just better.
I mean eventually reality needs to set in. They were getting destroyed for the third game in a row, bad body language is bound to happen.
Velcro Fly
Member
2006 Wade with the refs single handedly beat Dallas
I mean I agree, the Bulls don't have the fire power on paper as the current Heat; but I disagree that Pippen wasn't considered great during his first outing with the Bulls. Pippen was on the Dream Team, a perennial all-star, all NBA first teamer, and named a top 50 player ever WHILE he was playing on the Bulls. Not to mention his near MVP season. I grew up a Bulls fan in Chicago and Pip was a BIG deal.
Also- we do this thing all the time in sports where we let the score affect our perception of body language.
Screaming becomes infighting or motivation depending on the score, etc etc.
That's not what we're doing though.
Prime for prime...the Spurs n Lakers teams from the early 2000's would shit all over the league right now.
Man, MJ's teammates have really been over hyped to crazy proportions. Come on, now. We've gotten to the point where Ron Harper is being deemed to be an integral part of MJ's Bulls. What is this? An episode of Kenan & Kel? And Steve Kerr is now on Ray Allen's level. LOL!
Prime for prime Kobe gasol daaawight and Nash doe?
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Then what did I see with my eyes today during game 5 then
Heat come out to a roaring start, show what they truly could be, get some jabs thrown on them, still recover, then the haymaker comes out from the Spurs, Heat take it on the chin and just whimper to a defeat
I watched all the Final game this year
I may not be an avid 82 season long BEST-GAF #irc HOF member, but I enjoy the Finals
The Spurs looked like a team that wanted to win, Heat didn't
The Best Player in the World getting sent to sit with the scrubs at the bench with 6 minutes to go, that was broadcasted out to everyone to see
If your role players can't show up for more than 1 game in the Finals (that you have to rely on a lot), then you got way worse problem that your own fans booing you on your home floor
I'm a Laker fan....you honestly see a team beating the Laker squad that went 15-1 in a seven game series?
BadAss2961
Member
When they did the top 50 thing, I remember there being lots of debate about Pippen deserving that spot.
To say the least, Pippen gets credited more now than he did back then. It wasn't about how stacked the Bulls were, it was about how great Jordan was.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Doesn't matter. Wade, Bosh, and Allen can put up more points and create problems compared to Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc.
He'll be our generation's Wilt. Ridiculous physical specimen that can never live up to the standards put upon him. Not his fault he had no help at all in this series. At this point he could win 4 more titles and people would still say well he is 6-3 in the finals. If Jordan went 9 times he'd be 9-0. It's lose/lose for Bron.
Edit: Wade's body just failed him. They couldn't guard the Spurs at all with this offensive focused lineup. No Battier on the perimeter killed them. No pg contribution was a huge detriment. I truly believe that this lost is going to cause a major shift in this organization. Melo singing seems more imminent. Wade force paycut/retirement seems very possible now.
Edit: Wade's body just failed him. They couldn't guard the Spurs at all with this offensive focused lineup. No Battier on the perimeter killed them. No pg contribution was a huge detriment. I truly believe that this lost is going to cause a major shift in this organization. Melo singing seems more imminent. Wade force paycut/retirement seems very possible now.
Those people just probably weren't there to see it, and are piecing history together second hand from fucking recap 2 hour specials aired on ESPN over the years about Jordan.
Fuck outta here. I was born and raised in Chicago. We had some PAINFUL fucking seasons before the 3 peats that you late comers love to overlook. Those fucking seasons hurt like hell and you guys handwave that shit like it was nothing. Jordan didn't become an amazing player right as he got his first ring. He was incredible fairly early, and our entire city believed in, and wanted a chip those early years we didn't get it.
Goddamn man its infuriating to read this stuff sometimes. Really wish the Lebron/Jordan comparisons would stop so I don't have to keep reading this nonsense.
benjipwns
Banned
Those Bulls teams were offensive monsters and it wasn't just Jordan, Grant, Paxson, Kukoc, Kerr, Rodman, etc. were all super efficient. Even Pippen.
The Bulls offensive ranks (difference from league average):
1991: 1st (+6.7)
1992: 1st (+7.3)
1993: 2nd (+4.9)
1996: 1st (+7.6)
1997: 1st (+7.7)
1998: 9th (+2.7)
The Cavs/Heats' offensive ranks:
2009: 4th (+4.1)
2010: 6th (+3.6)
2011: 3rd (+4.4)
2012: 8th (+2.0)
2013: 2nd (+6.4)
2014: 5th (+4.2)
The Bulls offensive ranks (difference from league average):
1991: 1st (+6.7)
1992: 1st (+7.3)
1993: 2nd (+4.9)
1996: 1st (+7.6)
1997: 1st (+7.7)
1998: 9th (+2.7)
The Cavs/Heats' offensive ranks:
2009: 4th (+4.1)
2010: 6th (+3.6)
2011: 3rd (+4.4)
2012: 8th (+2.0)
2013: 2nd (+6.4)
2014: 5th (+4.2)
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Plus his food poisoning in Game 5 where he made a game-tying 3 and the Bulls went on to win. Or when the Bulls were down by one with Malone in the paint, Jordan stripping him and dribbling down court to shoot the championship winning shot.
The man had ice water in his veins.
What is your fascination with points? The Bulls faced players that could score back then. Wade would get his....Rodman would eat Bosh alive out there. If he can get Karl Malone to make mistakes..Bosh won't stand a chance. Remember Rodman can guard the perimeter so Bosh doesn't have that 3pt advantage.
Pippen and Wade....is damn near a wash. Pippen can average 20-25 points a game. The difference is Pippen would give Wade more problems on the defensive end than Wade would Pip. Allen in his prime is better than Kukoc...but you still get about 16ppg from Kukoc.
Bulls had a better 3 than the Heat, prime for prime.
Very true.
Miami looked disappointed to me. Not sure what else they're supposed to look like when they're about to lose the finals. Could throw exhausted in there too with how much basketball the main guys have played these last few years.
BadAss2961
Member
You're not understanding me. I didn't say Jordan never lost, everyone loses. Jordan never lost when he was clearly supposed to win.
Once he got on top, and he got that first ring, it was pretty much over the rest of the league. Chicago could have 8 championships had he never retired the first time.
He is what he is; a Hall-of-Famer, Six-Time Champion, and Olympic Gold-Medalist.
To be totally accurate, Kukoc never really averaged above 13 ppg when MJ was on the Bulls.
PartlyCloudlike
Member
Nobody thought the Bulls were championship contenders until maybe 89. So if you were already hurting for chips starting 84, then you were fucking crazy. Boston, Detroit? Come on.
You can always tell someone who watches bball and understands what it takes to win instead of going off of stats.
Ron Harper was KEY to the triangle....it's the whole reason Phil wanted him to be there on the Lakers too. He knew how to keep that offense churning the way it was supposed to.
Kerr wasn't better than Allen...but he was exactly what the Bulls needed him to be. When he was on the floor...you were a little more hesitant to double team from anywhere on the court for fear he'd hit that 3.
It's not all about stats.....it's about being what your team needs you to be and doing that role to the best of your abilities. They did exactly that.
You're right...less shots n all.
jordan0386
Member
90 percent chance of an 8peat.
The East barely had any guards on MJs level. Other than Penny and Reggie. Meh.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
We agree to disagree then. If you make Rodman guard the perimeter, you're effectively reducing his role. He's out there to rebound and nothing more.
Prime for prime, Wade, Bosh, and Allen stomp Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc.
It's not even a contest IMO.
benjipwns
Banned
Defense too.
Bulls:
1991: 7th (-2.7)
1992: 4th (-3.7)
1993: 7th (-1.9)
1994: 6th (-3.6)
1995: 2nd (-4.0)
1996: 1st (-5.8)
1997: 4th (-4.3)
1998: 3rd (-5.2)
Cavs/Heat
2007: 4th (-5.2)
2008: 11th (-1.1)
2009: 3rd (-5.9)
2010: 7th (-3.5)
2011: 5th (-3.8)
2012: 4th (-4.4)
2013: 9th (-2.2)
2014: 11th (-0.9)
And since it's the greatest run ever, the Spurs since Tim Duncan's drafting:
1998: 2nd (-5.6)
1999: 1st (-7.2)
2000: 2nd (-5.5)
2001: 1st (-5.0)
2002: 2nd (-4.8)
2003: 3rd (-3.9)
2004: 1st (-8.8)*
2005: 1st (-7.3)
2006: 1st (-6.6)
2007: 2nd (-6.6)
2008: 3rd (-5.7)
2009: 5th (-4.0)
2010: 10th (-3.1)
2011: 11th (-1.7)
2012: 10th (-1.4)
2013: 3rd (-4.3)
2014: 3rd (-4.3)
*One of the absolute greatest defensive seasons by any team in league history. 1960's Celtics, Riley's Knicks and 2008 Celtics level or better.
Bulls:
1991: 7th (-2.7)
1992: 4th (-3.7)
1993: 7th (-1.9)
1994: 6th (-3.6)
1995: 2nd (-4.0)
1996: 1st (-5.8)
1997: 4th (-4.3)
1998: 3rd (-5.2)
Cavs/Heat
2007: 4th (-5.2)
2008: 11th (-1.1)
2009: 3rd (-5.9)
2010: 7th (-3.5)
2011: 5th (-3.8)
2012: 4th (-4.4)
2013: 9th (-2.2)
2014: 11th (-0.9)
And since it's the greatest run ever, the Spurs since Tim Duncan's drafting:
1998: 2nd (-5.6)
1999: 1st (-7.2)
2000: 2nd (-5.5)
2001: 1st (-5.0)
2002: 2nd (-4.8)
2003: 3rd (-3.9)
2004: 1st (-8.8)*
2005: 1st (-7.3)
2006: 1st (-6.6)
2007: 2nd (-6.6)
2008: 3rd (-5.7)
2009: 5th (-4.0)
2010: 10th (-3.1)
2011: 11th (-1.7)
2012: 10th (-1.4)
2013: 3rd (-4.3)
2014: 3rd (-4.3)
*One of the absolute greatest defensive seasons by any team in league history. 1960's Celtics, Riley's Knicks and 2008 Celtics level or better.
jordan0386
Member
Can't put Pippen over someone who avg 37 in the Finals, then avg 30/8 a few seasons later.
IrishNinja
Member
oh
so not only a bad PR move (that, again, went to charity)
but there was smack talk, and an arrogant nickname, too?
shit, in terms of off-season conduct this dude may as well be a rapist i guess
for real. to be fair, it's not on the level of that one weird guy who shows up in every jordan thread though, i forget his name but you'll know him from the tag & crazy content
You need to stop with this "I know bball, and you don't" nonsense and get off your high horse. We're all just fans having a silly debate that means nothing. The triangle makes the point guard expendable for the most part, and yes he ran it, but he was there for the second three peat. He wasn't integral to the team. When he fell off on the Lakers, Fisher took over and they didn't miss a beat. And it's not to say that Kerr didn't matter, but this is a comparison. Allen is much better than Kerr.
He's out there to rebound and play D. Which is key to winning rings. He played the perimeter enough while in Detroit and still got his rebounds.
In your opinion, you're wrong. You're essentially cancelling out one of your players in Bosh while Rodman still does what he does. He's a champion because of those very attributes.
Not a high horse. It's how i debate. If we were in person we'd laugh it off as soon as the discussion was over. I apologize if I offended. Still, it's not saying much since the Lakers had another pg to take his spot once he did fall off. Before that....Phil still played Harper more than Fish. Even when Harper finally retired, Phil still asked him to stay another year.
I know it's a comparison....but it's as a group. I didn't have Kerr in there...it was Pippen. I didn't understand why he was originally excluded.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Remember Jordan wasn't even 1st pick in the draft
He didn't have the Aura built up like how LeBron did, "The Chose One". "King James" w/o even doing jack and shit in the league
Also every top player struggles to reach the mountain top, but boy once Jordan got up there, that shit was locked down
If he didn't go do baseball, he would have had an 8-peat in place
8 years of locking out roughly 7-10+ Top 50 players from ever earning their ring
That's the thing with greats, they get greedy and want to stay atop the mountain at all costs
Will work their ass off and thwart back people to usurp their legacy
LeBron has years in him, lets see how this off season plays out
So far, there's an understanding of why I don't like LeBron, all that talent and a legacy that could've rivaled Jordan or even super-cedes it, but not anymore
I don't give a fuck if the money went to charity, it doesn't erase the fact dude went that selfish and had to broadcast to the world, that he was going to Miami
Just do a presser and be over with it, why try to gas yourself to such heights when you haven't earned those wings
You have to achieve something to be regarded something
Remember the memes of you can't call yourself a King when you don't even have a ring
You can't have both ways
You can't ask for the spotlight when you want it, if you ask for it, it will be there on you, then it's up to you to perform
As I said, talent out of his ass, but for what his career is, dude doesn't feel like the greatest to me how some of you try to prop him up to be
Epsilon-delta
Banned
You hype players to epic proportions, but whatever. The only opinion that's wrong is yours because you're the only one who believes a prime Wade, Bosh, and Allen loses to a prime Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc.
Wade has the highest PER rating in a NBA Finals IIRC.
Stats....ok.
SlackAdjuster
Member
Hyperbole now. Game over. You either just don't get it and never will or refuse to admit the reason he catches so much shit. I guess it's because...people don't like his tattoos or something, I dunno. Maybe it's the headband. It's gotta be the headband.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I like this stat, Jordan never went to a game 7.
jordan0386
Member
In the Finals? Yea, he didn't.
johnny_park
Member
Pippen is a great #2. I don't know if he could have been a #1.
I will only say this. MJ understood desire, understood motivation in an innate way. When he left after his first 3peat it was because "he had nothing left to prove" saw a loss in motivation looming and thought "I should do something else". People were disturbed and made up rumors about why he left which weren't true. His comeback and second rise to the top left people without a doubt about his competitiveness, and all his latter teams took on his identity.
I don't think it's fair to trash Lebron on this, but I also don't think it's entirely dismissable that as a leader he has some part in the teams identity. Suffice to say you can't take any conclusions away from this except that on a competitive nature level they're not the same breed MJ and Lebron. But that was known for some time, in the way Lebron carries himself.
That's where it should stop. Different players. I certainly have never bought into him being this ultimate cocktail of all the previous best player's attributes, but he is one of the most well rounded b-ball players of all-time. He's got a lot of time left, let's see what he does. This year simply was a failure of the Miami Heat. And thank god, I hate that fucking "dynasty".
I don't think it's fair to trash Lebron on this, but I also don't think it's entirely dismissable that as a leader he has some part in the teams identity. Suffice to say you can't take any conclusions away from this except that on a competitive nature level they're not the same breed MJ and Lebron. But that was known for some time, in the way Lebron carries himself.
That's where it should stop. Different players. I certainly have never bought into him being this ultimate cocktail of all the previous best player's attributes, but he is one of the most well rounded b-ball players of all-time. He's got a lot of time left, let's see what he does. This year simply was a failure of the Miami Heat. And thank god, I hate that fucking "dynasty".
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