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[shockthrill]

If we are to classify Right Wing Anti-Semitism it is often:


- eliminationist (Hitler/Nazi Germany)
- Conspiratory (Jews control the world, want to destroy Western Civilization etc.)
- racialized

Right Wing Anti-antisemitism is simply grotesque and disgusting, it's born of pure hatred. There's almost no reason to have a discussion of it, because its totally illogical and awful, that

Left Wing antisemitism is a more interesting topic, it's something that is more recent, but also has its explicit origins, and in its complexity it arises many questions. Much of anti-semitism among the left is explicitly linked to Israel, and also the stereotype of the "Capitalist Jew" is also prevalent

Origins of this idea, can go back to Marx himself, but probably even before. It's interesting once you find out that Marx was an anti-semite and often made disparaging remarks about Jewish people

"What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. ... Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man—and turns them into commodities. ... The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. ... The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general."

Another reason on the left. is the idea that Jews of today are in proximity to whiteness or "European-ness". many see Ashkenazi Jews as not the "true jews" but simply Khazars or converts. The idea that White European Jews are not the "True Jews"and simply European colonists.

Now I am a huge critic of the Israel government and Zionism of today, but often many on the left will apply Zionism to conspiracy theories that often match old age anti-semitism which is why I have distanced my self from many other critics that use that type of language, cause I often thing it's wrong to do so

"The Zionists control the media". Often conflating those things. Hopefully we can learn what the reasons are and start to combat them

 

[bionic77]

The left can always be better in dealing with everything.

But the fact is that if you are minority these days the left is your only option.

I hope and want the left to improve in its handling of all forms of bigotry, including anti-semitism, but I don't see us having any other choices in 2017.

 

[shockthrill]

The left can always be better in dealing with everything.

But the fact is that if you are minority these days the left is your only option.

I hope and want the left to improve in its handling of all forms of bigotry, including anti-semitism, but I don't see us having any other choices in 2017.

I agree 100 percent, but I still think we should have these discussions and try to route this

because we can never have any rational discourse with the far right, but we can at least try to be better on this issue

 

[ApharmdX]

Sorry, on the left I see much more legitimate criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians than wacky conspiracy theories or whatever. Being an apartheid state has alienated Israel from a lot of younger progressive Americans. An ethno/theocratic state is just not something that we are ok with.

I'm sure that there's real antisemitism on the left but I don't think it's common. And until the state of Israel cleans its act up it will find less and less support in the American left.

 

[shockthrill]

Sorry, on the left I see much more legitimate criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians than wacky conspiracy theories or whatever. Being an apartheid state has alienated Israel from a lot of younger progressive Americans. An ethno/theocratic state is just not something that we are ok with.

I'm sure that there's real antisemitism on the left but I don't think it's common. And until the state of Israel cleans its act up it will find less and less support in the American left.

Much of the criticism I have seen of Zionism often falls into the trap that I mentioned earlier. Is their purely legitimate criticisms of Zionism that are not anti-semetic yes, but they are rare from what I have seen

 

[Krauser Kat]

How does one of the left walk the line of anti-israel and pro-Palestinian arguments when some people of jewish faith see fighting for that argument as anti-Semitic?

 

[ClosingADoor]

The left can always be better in dealing with everything.

But the fact is that if you are minority these days the left is your only option.

I hope and want the left to improve in its handling of all forms of bigotry, including anti-semitism, but I don't see us having any other choices in 2017.

Depends on the country and the right wing parties really. Holland here has a far right party that is very pro-Israel for example. Not that it excuses their other bullshit, but this is a case of a minority (Jews) where the right wing does not give them much to fear.

How does one of the left walk the line of anti-israel and pro-Palestinian arguments when some people of jewish faith see fighting for that argument as anti-Semitic?

Like you said, some people will see it that way, but not all. As long as the discussion is about Israel and not the Jewish people themselves, most criticism is not antisemitic. But a lot of people go over that line and start blaming Jews as a group for the treatment of Palestinians, where that is not the case.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Much of the criticism I have seen of Zionism often falls into the trap that I mentioned earlier. Is their purely legitimate criticisms of Zionism that are not anti-semetic yes, but they are rare from what I have seen

I think that's incorrect. There are a lot of very legitimate criticisms of Israel that aren't rooted in anti-Semitism at all.

In fact it's a common and very disingenuous tactic to try and conflate the two.

 

[Quixzlizx]

On GAF, I see more posters claiming that any discussion of antisemitism is the work of Zionists trying to shut down criticism of Israel than I do people actually trying to shut down criticism of Israel.

And equating all Jews with Israel is antisemitism.

Israel being an apartheid state doesnt help.

Case in point.

 

[ApharmdX]

Much of the criticism I have seen of Zionism often falls into the trap that I mentioned earlier. Is their purely legitimate criticisms of Zionism that are not anti-semetic yes, but they are rare from what I have seen

I feel like you are conflating criticism of the nation of Israel and of Zionism with antisemitism. Where is the line? Because I don't see a lot on the left that isn't speaking directly to Israel's human rights abuses/etc.

Look, overt antisemitism has definitely risen in the American right. Do you have some examples of overt antisemitism on the left that are similar? I don't doubt that there are some far-left crackpots who believe in Jewish conspiracies but that's a tiny minority of people.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Israel being an apartheid state doesnt help.

 

[shockthrill]

I feel like you are conflating criticism of the nation of Israel and of Zionism with antisemitism. Where is the line? Because I don't see a lot on the left that isn't speaking directly to Israel's human rights abuses/etc.

Look, overt antisemitism has definitely risen in the American right. Do you have some examples of overt antisemitism on the left that are similar? I don't doubt that there are some far-left crackpots who believe in Jewish conspiracies but that's a tiny minority of people.

The idea that Ashkenazi Jews are not the "true jews" but white converts from Europe is an idea i hear more from the left than the right, its an anti-semitic tactic

 

[-MB-]

Depends on the country and the right wing parties really. Holland here has a far right party that is very pro-Israel for example. Not that it excuses their other bullshit, but this is a case of a minority (Jews) where the right wing does not give them much to fear.

That is mostly because a) their leader is funded by the Israelis. and b) It is purely a convenient stance for them considering their anti muslim positions. The enemy of your enemy is your friend basically.

 

[mlclmtckr]

The idea that Ashkenazi Jews are not the "true jews" but white converts from Europe is an idea i hear more from the left than the right, its an anti-semitic tactic

You mean the white European people that weren't Jewish until they were offered Israeli citizenship and converted so that the Israeli government could try and out-breed the Arabs? Or actual Ashkenazi Jews?

 

[tearsintherain]

How does one of the left walk the line of anti-israel and pro-Palestinian arguments when some people of jewish faith see fighting for that argument as anti-Semitic?

I'd say be against the policies of Israel as it concerns settlements, be for a seperate independent Palestinian state, support the right of Israel to exist as a country and have a rooted Jewish identity (unique because of WW2 and the holocaust and Jewish physical history dating back thousands of years), be against Hamas and other Palestinian organizations that advocate for terrorism as a political tool, and in general follow the thinking "hey man... don't be a dick towards other people".

What doesn't help is saying nothing Palestine or Palestinians can do is ever wrong and everything Israel or Jewish people do is always wrong, that Gal Gadot is a bigot for supporting her countries military forces, or shutting down debate with someone because they may support Israel.

 

[shockthrill]

You mean the white European people that weren't Jewish until they were offered Israeli citizenship and converted so that the Israeli government could try and out-breed the Arabs? Or actual Ashkenazi Jews?

actual Ashkenazi Jews

 

[Shadowhelper]

Sorry, on the left I see much more legitimate criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians than wacky conspiracy theories or whatever. Being an apartheid state has alienated Israel from a lot of younger progressive Americans. An ethno/theocratic state is just not something that we are ok with.

I'm sure that there's real antisemitism on the left but I don't think it's common. And until the state of Israel cleans its act up it will find less and less support in the American left.

Yeah, exactly.

I don't really see much anti semetism on the left. Mostly just calling out the racism, culture of racial pureness, and oppression of indigenous Palestinians who continue to have land stolen from them by the ultra right governments of Israel. Valid criticism against war crimes and racism.

I mean, the left believes in human rights, and the rights of indigenous people. So obviously it is going to be opposed to racist regimes and the stealing of land and resources. The prime minister of Israel said they cannot allow African refugees into the country due to a ' demographic threat.' He's openly saying they don't want the population to ever shift to being black in anyway.

Open and legitimate criticism of Israel by the left if anything is way too tame and tepid. It needs to start in earnest. And people need to start reading Israeli newspapers to see what is going on .Most people dont understand the torture and oppression the indigenous Palestinians go through. As brutal and racist as anything that goes on.

 

[pigeon]

The OP of this thread is totally bonkers.

Anti-Semitism on the left that I've observed almost always grows out of either opposition to Israel for engaging in apartheid, or toleration of crazy conspiracy theorists who somehow always get back to the Jews. There's also an aspect of not recognizing the intersectional nature of anti-Semitism because it's easy to assume Jews can pass as white. Obviously this is typically not the case.

In a world in which overt white supremacy, an ideology which is always explicitly focused on persecuting Jews as part of its overarching mythology, is becoming more prevalent, it's very important for leftists, especially people of color, to recognize the importance of including Jewish people as oppressed people. Anti-Semitic hate crimes are by far the most common type of hate crime reported. As we remember to rally in support of American Muslims, we should equally rally in support of American Jews.

This does not mean we can't criticize Israel for its apartheid policies and urge policy changes to pressure them to allow all people in Israel freedom and democratic self-determination.

 

[gutter_trash]

The left can always be better in dealing with everything.

But the fact is that if you are minority these days the left is your only option.

I hope and want the left to improve in its handling of all forms of bigotry, including anti-semitism, but I don't see us having any other choices in 2017.

I'm from Montreal and we at the Provincial level have many parties,
There is one Party on the Far-Far-Left (QS) which is vocally anti-Israel,
we have a loser university (UQAM) whose Political Science professors teach fringe Far-left Anarchist garbage to their students and they come out spewing Anti-Capitalist crap off the far fringes of the Fringe Left with Antisemitism driven conspiracy theory about Jewish people resurfaces time and time again.

 

[mlclmtckr]

actual Ashkenazi Jews

Well then yeah that's definitely very anti Semitic and totally unacceptable, I agree.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

How does one of the left walk the line of anti-israel and pro-Palestinian arguments when some people of jewish faith see fighting for that argument as anti-Semitic?

There's no simple answer to this, but I would say the pro-palestinian part carries with it dangers of dipping into anti-semitic territory. Not in concept, but in association.

 

[shockthrill]

The OP of this thread is totally bonkers.

Anti-Semitism on the left that I've observed almost always grows out of either opposition to Israel for engaging in apartheid, or toleration of crazy conspiracy theorists who somehow always get back to the Jews. There's also an aspect of not recognizing the intersectional nature of anti-Semitism because it's easy to assume Jews can pass as white. Obviously this is typically not the case.

In a world in which overt white supremacy, an ideology which is always explicitly focused on persecuting Jews as part of its overarching mythology, is becoming more prevalent, it's very important for leftists, especially people of color, to recognize the importance of including Jewish people as oppressed people. Anti-Semitic hate crimes are by far the most common type of hate crime reported. As we remember to rally in support of American Muslims, we should equally rally in support of American Jews.

This does not mean we can't criticize Israel for its apartheid policies and urge policy changes to pressure them to allow all people in Israel freedom and democratic self-determination.

yeah totally...

which is why many pro-palestinians support Hamas, an orginization that uses the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a foundational text, a russian anti-semetic forgery

but keep deluding yourself in thinking that anti-israel criticism is purely a criticism of the state and doesn't conflate with anti-semitism in some way

 

[CCS]

Anti-semitism on the left is definitely a thing, and I kind of wonder if those who say they haven't seen it just choose not to.

As an example, the Labour society at my old uni got quite a lot of publicity after Jewish students were told to be silent because they were "filthy Zios". They weren't even defending or discussing Israel, but many felt that was an appropriate way to behave towards them. This was around the time the National Union of Students had a President who had a history of anti-semitic remarks.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That is mostly because a) their leader is funded by the Israelis. and b) It is purely a convenient stance for them considering their anti muslim positions. The enemy of your enemy is your friend basically.

True to some extend. Just interesting to see how this is in contrast to the far right parties of Germany and France for example.

 

[Conciliator]

yeah I feel like anti-semitism is strongly the domain of the right and their ever-increasing love affair with racist conspiracy theories. Just based on personal experience. But I think this is a totally fair thing to discuss and consider.

EDIT: and there is definitely some history there.

 

[freeofgreed]

On GAF, I see more posters claiming that any discussion of antisemitism is the work of Zionists trying to shut down criticism of Israel than I do people actually trying to shut down criticism of Israel.

And equating all Jews with Israel is antisemitism.



Case in point.

How? That quote has nothing to do with what you describe in your first paragraph?

 

[mlclmtckr]

What doesn't help is saying nothing Palestine or Palestinians can do is ever wrong and everything Israel or Jewish people do is always wrong, that Gal Gadot is a bigot for supporting her countries military forces, or shutting down debate with someone because they may support Israel.

How is supporting a military that is actively enforcing an apartheid regime okay?

 

[ApharmdX]

The idea that Ashkenazi Jews are not the "true jews" but white converts from Europe is an idea i hear more from the left than the right, its an anti-semitic tactic

I haven't heard that one. But I have heard many on the left talking about the treatment of Jewish African immigrants being mistreated despite being of the same faith as Ashkenazim, and how racism is a problem in Israel as it is throughout the world.

Israel has a lot of ideological attack surface and it has nothing to do with antsemitism (speaking for myself at least). Being an ethnostate is, again, just incompatible with our liberal values. It's a real shame, because that nation could be a shining example of open democracy to the Middle East, and because, here in the US, Jewish Americans have been some of our staunchest liberal allies.

 

[Quixzlizx]

How? That quote has nothing to do with what you describe in your first paragraph?

If only you had continued to the second paragraph.

 

[pigeon]

How does one of the left walk the line of anti-israel and pro-Palestinian arguments when some people of jewish faith see fighting for that argument as anti-Semitic?

I think you just have to be willing to engage that and identify what they find anti-semitic about your argument.

If you say "is any criticism of Israel anti-semitic" and they say "yes" then you're just going to have to let that be, while still making an effort to avoid and call out anti-semitism elsewhere. But they're probably not likely to do that because it would be kind of bonkers.

It is important to recognize that the people of Israel have the right to safety and security. The issue is achieving that right without stripping others of their right to safety, security, and self-determination.

yeah totally...

which is why many pro-palestinians support Hamas, an orginization that uses the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a foundational text, a russian anti-semetic forgery

but keep deluding yourself in thinking that anti-israel criticism is purely a criticism of the state and doesn't conflate with anti-semitism in some way

Uh...

Are you saying that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

 

[5taquitos]

but keep deluding yourself in thinking that anti-israel criticism is purely a criticism of the state and doesn't conflate with anti-semitism in some way

🤔🤔🤔

 

[freeofgreed]

yeah totally...

which is why many pro-palestinians support Hamas, an orginization that uses the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a foundational text, a russian anti-semetic forgery

but keep deluding yourself in thinking that anti-israel criticism is purely a criticism of the state and doesn't conflate with anti-semitism in some way

I mean it definitely can be, but to imply it is always the case is ridiculous.

 

[shockthrill]

I haven't heard that one. But I have heard many on the left talking about the treatment of Jewish African immigrants being mistreated despite being of the same faith as Ashkenazim, and how racism is a problem in Israel as it is throughout the world.

Israel has a lot of ideological attack surface and it has nothing to do with antsemitism (speaking for myself at least). Being an ethnostate is, again, just incompatible with our liberal values. It's a real shame, because that nation could be a shining example of open democracy to the Middle East, and because, here in the US, Jewish Americans have been some of our staunchest liberal allies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

here is the origin of it

 

[ClosingADoor]

How is supporting a military that is actively enforcing an apartheid regime okay?

Because the issue is not that simple. So an Israeli supporting her troops in a time of war is not automatically a bad person.

 

[freeofgreed]

If only you had continued to the second paragraph.

What second paragraph? This sentence?

And equating all Jews with Israel is antisemitism.

Again. How did that poster do this?

 

[shockthrill]

I think you just have to be willing to engage that and identify what they find anti-semitic about your argument.

If you say "is any criticism of Israel anti-semitic" and they say "yes" then you're just going to have to let that be, while still making an effort to avoid and call out anti-semitism elsewhere. But they're probably not likely to do that because it would be kind of bonkers.

It is important to recognize that the people of Israel have the right to safety and security. The issue is achieving that right without stripping others of their right to safety, security, and self-determination.



Uh...

Are you saying that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

I should of used better language

no I don't think all criticism is, but in this day and age, alot of it is, from what I have seen

from the BDS movement, and many people I have engaged with

Academics at least tend to be more careful when talking about this issue. people like Chomsky post legitimate critiques of Israel which I agree with

 

[gutter_trash]

The OP of this thread is totally bonkers.

Anti-Semitism on the left that I've observed almost always grows out of either opposition to Israel for engaging in apartheid, or toleration of crazy conspiracy theorists who somehow always get back to the Jews. There's also an aspect of not recognizing the intersectional nature of anti-Semitism because it's easy to assume Jews can pass as white. Obviously this is typically not the case.
.

But the truth is that on the fringes, there is a huge portion who delve in nWo Illuminati Conspiracy Theories of Bilderberg and Jews Controlling the world which many on the Fringes believe.

I'm in Montreal, I hear this crap form the Far-Left to my ears like face to face whenever we have a Provincial Election

 

[Quixzlizx]

What second paragraph? This sentence?



Again. How did that poster do this?

By implying that there is (justified?) antisemitism on the left because of the Israeli government's actions.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Also I just want to say -

Anti Semitism on the left is ABSOLUTELY a real thing, especially in Europe. There uk labour party has had several examples in the past decades. And of course the Marx quote upthread is worth remembering for sure. So I don't really like seeing leftists (or at least liberals who consider themselves leftists) saying that it's not a thing.

But at the same time I have no patience for people implying that criticising Israel is somehow bigotry. It's not.

 

[freeofgreed]

By implying that there is (justified?) antisemitism on the left because of the Israeli government's actions.

Ah I see. Fair enough.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Because the issue is not that simple. So an Israeli supporting her troops in a time of war is not automatically a bad person.

So no matter how bad the regime is, it's okay to support its armed forces because of, what, patriotism?

 

[shockthrill]

I mean we literally had this a few months ago where they expelled Jews wearing the Star of David, calling them "Zios" and that they felt "unsafe"


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1397502&page=4

 

[pigeon]

How is supporting a military that is actively enforcing an apartheid regime okay?

I mean, militaries can do more than one thing at a time?

Israelis perceive themselves as being under imminent threat of attack and destruction from various Islamic states that surround them. This is not a crazy, out there perception -- those states often say they want to destroy Israel, and in the past have in fact repeatedly gone to war with Israel!

So naturally they are likely to support their military since their military is full of young Israeli conscripts who are working to defend their country from potential (and occasionally actual) attack. That's a big part of what militaries do.

That said, obviously I agree that their work to enforce an apartheid state in Israel and deny the people in the occupied territories their right to democratic representation and security is worthy of condemnation. But I don't know that it helps to attempt to assign a unitary good/bad value to everybody involved. Some things are good, some things are bad, some people are doing both kinds of things.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

There aren't factions of antisemitic groups on the left. There may be antisemitic people but not groups with a shared identity that unite over their hatred For the jews.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Calling them out should be most efficient.
Antisemitism is so stupid, I don't know how anyone could defend it.

 

[ApharmdX]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

here is the origin of it

Thanks for that link. Here is a link for you:

Israel has admitted for the first time that it has been giving Ethiopian Jewish immigrants birth-control injections, often without their knowledge or consent.

Nearly 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel under the Law of Return since the 1980s, but their Jewishness has been questioned by some rabbis. Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”.

Is it antisemitic for me to point out that this is despicable? Because it is despicable and bordering on a human rights abuse.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So no matter how bad the regime is, it's okay to support its armed forces because of, what, patriotism?

No, that is twisting my words. As far as I know, she posted a tweet supporting the troops of her country in time of conflict. You can still support your troops but see that the wider conflict their government is part of is messed up.

 

[shockthrill]

Thanks for that link. Here is a link for you:





Is it antisemitic for me to point out that this is despicable? Because it is despicable and bordering on a human rights abuse.

no of course not, I am a critic of the Israel state just as you, but that wasn't my point and I apologize if I didn't make my OP clearer

 

[Random Human]

If you don't think anti-Semitism on the left is a thing, you've either got your head in the sand or you've lucked out and found a cool social circle of progressives. There is a LOT of anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists on the left.

 

[Cocaloch]

I mean we literally had this a few months ago where they expelled Jews wearing the Star of David, calling them "Zios" and that they felt "unsafe"


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1397502&page=4

I think this is a large part of the problem with every discussion about this issue on GAF. You're reducing both what happened and the conversation around it to an absurd level in order to justify your argument.

Both sides here are doing it, so it doesn't seem like a productive conversation is possible without some cultural changes. I'd say all of this derives from some problems with the political culture of the left throughout the West.

There's some antisemitism on the left undoubtedly, but there's also a number of people using accusations of antisemitism to dismiss legitimate concerns about Israel.

Because it is despicable and bordering on a human rights abuse.

Bordering?