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[Dopus]

That's why I think their is a fundamental difference in how the conflict is viewed

Western leftists view it as a white european colonial project vs. the arabic world

in the islamic world, it's viewed as a jewish vs. muslim battle

When you say "Western leftists" you need to be more specific, because prominent leftists don't frame the argument in this manner whatsoever. You've already conceded this point by stating that you agree with Chomsky's stance. What are your thoughts on Finkelstein? Discussions surrounding the inception of the state and discussions surrounding the way Palestinians are treated are separate issues.

Hamas doesn't want peace though, how do you negotiate for peace when one (or perhaps both) have no interest in it?

This is just an reductive argument that you're attempting to put forward. "Hamas don't want peace and therefore Israel have no choice but to protect themeselves from this terrorist organisation." That is in essense what you're trying to say here, correct?

 

[Tubobutts]

Maybe stop stealing Palestinian land with settlements under the scope of a gun?

Here's a good example of something that is pretty antisemitic as the poster is holding random Jews across the world accountable for Israel's actions while also saying any antisemitism they might experience is deserved due to Israel's actions.

 

[Violet_0]

this is the first time I hear about the colonial project conspiracy

to me, it comes down to where you draw the line between criticising Israel and anti-semitism. If you make blanket statements about a whole religious group, that's obviously the latter, but that doesn't have anything to do with Isreal the country/government. My brother still has a huge Palestinesa flag hanging in his flat from back when he thought of himself as some sort of leftist rebel, but I'd never think of calling him an anti-semist. In my experience, many if not most people on the far-left share the same believes as him

European anti-semitism is tricky, because you have all those on the Left that campaign for a "free" Palestina, and then there's the Judaism/Islam conflict that is a global phenomena and also just far beyond my understanding and ability to discuss it

 

[nomis]

Here's a good example of something that is pretty antisemitic as the poster is holding random Jews across the world accountable for Israel's actions while also saying any antisemitism they might experience is deserved due to Israel's actions.

where

 

[rudger]

where

The poster they were responding to wasn't quoting anybody. Therefore it is safe to assume they were responding to the OP. But the OP isn't about Israel. It is about anti-Semitic rhetoric on the left. The poster is claiming the rhetoric is justified because of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Hence the paragraph you're responding to pointing out why the post is in and of itself spreading anti-Semitic rhetoric - saying it's okay to shit on Jews because of Israel's actions.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Pretty much this.

Being against apartheid actions is common in the left as it should be, and should not be mistaken for anti-semitism

It's not a mistake. Conflation of criticism of the modern State of Israel and anti-Semitism is intentionally perpetuated in order to give Israel the cover it needs to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians.

 

[shockthrill]

It's not a mistake. Conflation of criticism of the modern State of Israel and anti-Semitism is intentionally perpetuated in order to give Israel the cover it needs to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians.

and many on the left use the cover of "anti-zionist" rhetoric to justify their anti-semitism

 

[Dopus]

and many on the left use the cover of "anti-zionist" rhetoric to justify their anti-semitism

Some do, I'm sure. But the left is relatively consistent in its criticism of the state. Again, the vast majority of leading intellectuals approach the issues regarding Israel and Palestine in a similar manner.

 

[shockthrill]

Some do, I'm sure. But the left is relatively consistent in its criticism of the state. Again, the vast majority of leading intellectuals approach the issues regarding Israel and Palestine in a similar manner.

how does Chomsky view the conflict?

 

[Dopus]

how does Chomsky view the conflict?

You've already said you agree with his criticism, so you tell us.

 

[SaviourMK2]

I've been seeing a lot of "protest isreal" going on lately within my political community, I don't understand it, can someone explain

 

[shockthrill]

You've already said you agree with his criticism, so you tell us.

I meant to say that academics tend to be better at presenting arguments without falling into the trap of anti-semitism, and used Chomsky as an example, i just threw a name out there I could of used Finklestein as well

 

[Dopus]

I meant to say that academics tend to be better at presenting arguments without falling into the trap of anti-semitism, and used Chomsky as an example, i just threw a name out there I could of used Finklestein as well

Right. You did also state that you agreed with Chomsky. So, do you agree with their arguments and assessment of the situation? What don't you agree with?

And these intellectuals are the ones who help shape the view for leftist communities and organisations and are more often than not quoted in literature or discussions revolving around Israeli policy and the treatment of Palestinians. There are exceptions here for things like BDS, but like I said before - the left is relatively consistent.

 

[shockthrill]

Right. You did also state that you agreed with Chomsky. So, do you agree with their arguments and assessment of the situation? What don't you agree with?

And these intellectuals are the ones who help shape the view for leftist communities and organisations and are more often than not quoted in literature or discussions revolving around Israeli policy and the treatment of Palestinians. There are exceptions here for things like BDS, but like I said before - the left is relatively consistent.

I agree with Chomsky that the biggest stumbling block to resolving this conflict is U.S Policy and that U.S Policy has to change or nothing will be done

 

[Dopus]

I agree with Chomsky that the biggest stumbling block to resolving this conflict is U.S Policy and that U.S Policy has to change or nothing will be done

And what of Chomsky and Finkelstein's direct criticism of Israeli policy? I'll ask again, what don't you agree with?

Also, you seem unwilling to expand on what exactly you mean when you say "Western leftists".

 

[shockthrill]

And what of Chomsky and Finkelstein's direct criticism of Israeli policy? I'll ask again, what don't you agree with?

Also, you seem unwilling to expand on what exactly you mean when you say "Western leftists".

I think Chomsky's claim that Israel is a worst Apartheid nation than South Africa was is laughable and disingenuous

 

[Dopus]

I think Chomsky's claim that Israel is a worst Apartheid nation than South Africa was is laughable and disingenuous

Why?

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I think Chomsky's claim that Israel is a worst Apartheid nation than South Africa was is laughable and disingenuous

This isn't oppression Olympics. We're not going to minimize one people's suffering to further an argument. I want to know whether you agree that Israel is an apartheid state?

 

[shockthrill]

Why?

Israel Arabs have full political, economic and citizenship rights

Black South Africans pre 1994 did not

 

[aeolist]

Israel Arabs have full political, economic and citizenship rights

Black South Africans pre 1994 did not

but palestinians are effectively under the control of the israeli state and have no rights at all

e. there's also shit like this http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.805151

 

[Dopus]

Israel Arabs have full political, economic and citizenship rights

Black South Africans pre 1994 did not

Yeah, they're totally equal and not treated as second-class citizens.

I know you're banned now, but on the off chance you read this then the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa has a report on Apartheid practices in South Africa being applied to Israeli policy. Oh and another thing, the occupied territories absolutely count.

 

[Atenhaus]

Maybe stop stealing Palestinian land with settlements under the scope of a gun?

Nice post, jerkass. Are you going to hold me, a non-Zionist American Jew responsible for the Israel govt/Likud's actions in the Occupied Territories?

 

[Elegant Weapon]

For the sake of discussion, I just remembered how notorious rich white old coot, Donald Sterling, said

Sterling: “It’s the world! You go to Israel, the blacks are just treated like dogs.”

Stiviano: “So you have to treat them like that too?”

Sterling: “The white Jews, there’s white Jews and black Jews, do you understand?”

Stiviano: “Are are the black Jews less than the white Jews?”

Sterling: “A hundred percent, fifty, a hundred percent.”

Stiviano: “And is that right?”

Sterling: “It isn’t a question – we don’t evaluate what’s right and wrong, we live in a society. We live in a culture. We have to live within that culture.”

http://forward.com/news/israel/197191/nbas-donald-sterling-tells-girlfriend-in-israel-bl/


Of course, Sterling is a crazy old white guy but he's rich, meaning he usually gets his way, right? Fucker owned a team in a majority black player league for decades, his multiple illegally racist transgressions had been well documented but he kept his ownership because he's rich until a girlfriend exposed his shit and it went viral. My point is, if this rich dude who undoubtedly gets his way most of the time tells someone in what he thinks is private that black people are treated like dogs in Israel, he probably isn't lying.

so to me, as a black america, what am i supposed to think? I don't remember anyone from the Israeli or Jewish community making it a point to refute Sterlings assertions that black people are treated like dogs in Israel. Considering the only reason he was punished in fucking America for his views was being exposed like this, what makes anyone think he doesn't get his way all over the world most of the time or specifically in Israel where Sterling made it a point to mention the fucked up treatment of black jews?

So yeah, I'm not a anti-semite but I believe that Israel is not really a place for people of color even if they are of the Jewish faith, not to mention the blatant apartheid of mostly brown skinned muslims in the area.

I think the OP had a certain agenda when making this thread and other posts he made here, I didn't want to engage with him because he was full of shit, I just wanted to shed more light on why america liberals are against Israel on principles and as others have stated, that could be taken as anti-semitism.

 

[Jag]

For the sake of discussion, I just remembered how notorious rich white old coot, Donald Sterling, said

http://forward.com/news/israel/197191/nbas-donald-sterling-tells-girlfriend-in-israel-bl/

so to me, as a black america, what am i supposed to think? I don't remember anyone from the Israeli or Jewish community making it a point to refute Sterlings assertions that black people are treated like dogs in Israel. Considering the only reason he was punished in fucking America for his views was being exposed like this, what makes anyone think he doesn't get his way all over the world most of the time or specifically in Israel where Sterling made it a point to mention the fucked up treatment of black jews?

So yeah, I'm not a anti-semite but I believe that Israel is not really a place for people of color even if they are of the Jewish faith, not to mention the blatant apartheid of mostly brown skinned muslims in the area.

Wait. Is every Jewish person responsible for the racism of every other one? Because that's quite a slippery slope if applied to all races and religions. You do know he was going to have the team forcibly sold and banned from the NBA by another Jewish person, Adam Silver. The most severe ban ever imposed on a professional sports owner in history.

"We stand together in condemning Mr. Sterling's views," Silver said. "They simply have no place in the NBA."

I actually read this uplifting piece today from Ray Allen about his visit to Poland and thought it was interesting in light of this thread. It is worth reading. Even more relevant since you brought up the NBA.

When I returned home to America, I got some very disheartening messages directed toward me on social media regarding my trip. Some people didn’t like the fact that I was going to Poland to raise awareness for the issues that happened there and not using that time or energy to support people in the black community.

I was told my ancestors would be ashamed of me.

I know there are trolls online and I shouldn’t even pay attention, but that one sort of got to me. Because I understood where they were coming from. I understand that there are plenty of issues in our own country right now, but they were looking at my trip the wrong way. I didn’t go to Poland as black person, a white person, a Christian person or a Jewish person — I went as a human being.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Wait. Is every Jewish person responsible for the racism of every other one? Because that's quite a slippery slope if applied to all races and religions. You do know he was going to have the team forcibly sold and banned from the NBA by another Jewish person, Adam Silver. The most severe ban ever imposed on a professional sports owner in history.

No. Like I stated, Sterling wouldn't have had the team taken away from him despite his previous racial issues in the locker room and in his other personal business in the United States . He had decades of racial bullshit but was allowed to keep the team. It's not like Adam Silver up and decided to take the team away from Sterling, Silver had very little choice after the recording of Sterling went viral.

Sterling was skating with his racist bullshit for a long time. The guy who skated for a long time until his honest views where blasted publicly and gave the league absolutely no other choice but to remove him, stated candidly his treatment of black jews in Israel and I'm just taken how no one really bothered to refute him, of any color.

It's not that "every jewish person is responsible for the racism of every other one", it's just that no one really disproved Sterling's views, as if to admit that it's true but not a big enough deal to address.

It's not like I or any person of color reasonably expects some sort of apology or even real amendment to Israel policy, I'm just saying how an american liberal probably wouldn't easily ignore Israel's apartheid and that stance can be taken as anti-semitism

 

[M.D]

Swedish-Palestinian Center attacks Israel in anti-Semitic demonstrations

The Helsingborg Police is investigating an anti-Semitic demonstration by a pro-Palestinian organization in which activists said Jews were 'offspring of apes and pigs'; the group frequently posts anti-Semitic videos, pictures and posts online.

In the past, the Swedish-Palestinian Center also posted videos of demonstrations in which its activists called Israelis "murderers" and called for a boycott against Israel.

The Swedish-Palestinian Center, meanwhile, claims the criticism voiced during the demonstrations was not directed against the Jewish people but against the State of Israel.

Just a few days ago, the group posted an anti-Semitic post in which a photograph of Jewish immigrants arriving to the shores of Israel with their trousers folded to avoid getting wet is captioned: "This is how Zionists jews came to palestine, half naked, without anything… this is how they are going to leave too (sic)."

I guess since they said it wasn't directed at Jews but against Israel that makes it okay, right guys?