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[pigeon]

I should of used better language

no I don't think all criticism is, but in this day and age, alot of it is, from what I have seen

from the BDS movement, and many people I have engaged with

Academics at least tend to be more careful when talking about this issue. people like Chomsky post legitimate critiques of Israel which I agree with

But the truth is that on the fringes, there is a huge portion who delve in nWo Illuminati Conspiracy Theories of Bilderberg and Jews Controlling the world which many on the Fringes believe.

I'm in Montreal, I hear this crap form the Far-Left to my ears like face to face whenever we have a Provincial Election

Sure. I should've written my post more clearly because I don't think my meaning came across.

I perceive that there are often situations where people have legitimate criticisms of Israel and end up quietly tolerating or aligning with people who are actually anti-Semitic because they perceive them as "ideological allies" against Israel's apartheid state. It's not necessarily intentional -- people are just really bad at applying critical thinking to people they think are agreeing with them. This is one way that these toxic beliefs tend to infiltrate leftist groups. And it's really bad! It's very important to stop this from happening, to call it out and to push it out.

The Chicago Dyke March thing should be a big wakeup call, because in the main, that group is/was a respected radical movement that fought for progressive causes. So the fact that anti-Semitism seeped in and tainted it should show that even among people who are staunchly leftist, it's easy to accept evil opinions when they sound similar to good ones.

 

[gutter_trash]

lets be clear, it's perfect legitimate to be critical of the Israeli government.

but the truth is that outside the Israel debate, Antisemitism exists among the fringes prone to believe that all capitalism is a conspiracy

Anarchists believe that, Communists believe that, Fringe groups believe that

 

[Dicktatorship]

I don't think the Left has a big issue with it, but I do believe that the state of Israel wants everyone to think there is. They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust. They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

But that isn't anything. Zionists will use any tactics, and take advantage of any sympathy to advance their cause. They're mostly atheists, and yet they'll justify the occupation with biblical quotes! They prey on the worst qualities of American conservatives by portraying themselves as a beautiful, white oasis in land of violent brown people.They ought to be criticized and called out at every turn, but there are still people like OP who buy into their well organized propaganda and will continue to do so until Palestine and its people cease to exist.

 

[mlclmtckr]

No, that is twisting my words. As far as I know, she posted a tweet supporting the troops of her country in time of conflict. You can still support your troops but see that the wider conflict they are part of is messed up.

Then again adding #weareright and #loveidf is kind of ideologically tinged.

Although she also put #freegaza and #coexist so I guess it is ambiguous.

I dunno. She posted it in 2014 when Israel were killing literally thousands of unarmed Palestinians. I personally think it's pretty fucked up.

 

[shockthrill]

Don't get me wrong

Right Wing Anti-semitism is a much bigger threat, and much more disgusting and deadly


but at least we can have a conversation on our side in what we have to do better

 

[Khaz]

I mean it definitely can be, but to imply it is always the case is ridiculous.

Not always, but often enough for it to be a legitimate concern. It's always a good idea to take some extra precautions when discussing Israel. Often, simply poking about "the jews" can elicit a surprising (and disgusting) response.

 

[ApharmdX]

no of course not, I am a critic of the Israel state just as you, but that wasn't my point and I apologize if I didn't make my OP clearer

No, I think I get your original point, I just want some examples, if you would. In Europe and even Canada, there may be lots of actual antisemitism on the left, I don't know. In America, that isn't the case, in my experience. Here we are raised in an environment where traditionally both major political parties are willing to endorse Israel without reservation. I don't think antisemitism has taken hold in the American left aside from a few crackpots, whereas on the American right you can see just brigades of alt-right fascists for whom antisemitism is a core belief, as pigeon pointed out.

Bordering?

I was too generous and you are right. That is a human rights abuse by the state of Israel, full stop.

 

[mlclmtckr]

lets be clear, it's perfect legitimate to be critical of the Israeli government.

but the truth is that outside the Israel debate, Antisemitism exists among the fringes prone to believe that all capitalism is a conspiracy

Anarchists believe that, Communists believe that, Fringe groups believe that

Uh, anarchists and communists are critical of capitalism but they don't think it's a "conspiracy", literally what are you talking about.

 

[CCS]

Specifically, I don't think it's a huge problem with the mainstream left.

Where I think antisemitism is much more of an issue is among the hardcore anti-capitalist left, where you often see the same sort of "Jewish bankers/media and the Rothschild's etc. are controlling the world" that you see among the far right.

 

[pigeon]

Anybody who thinks left-wing anti-semitism isn't a problem should ask a progressive practicing Jewish friend whether they think it's a problem.

When I did this it was a very big wakeup call for me.

 

[Cocaloch]

Anybody who thinks left-wing anti-semitism isn't a problem should ask a progressive practicing Jewish friend whether they think it's a problem.

When I did this it was a very big wakeup call for me.

The problem is left wing antisemitism is bundled up in a really complex series of issues whereas most of right wing antisemitism is pretty much just pure hate.

The former is obviously a problem, but it's both less pressing, for obvious reasons, and far more difficult to deal due to its complexity and relationship to other problems.

 

[Random Human]

Anybody who thinks left-wing anti-semitism isn't a problem should ask a progressive practicing Jewish friend whether they think it's a problem.

When I did this it was a very big wakeup call for me.

Yuppp.

 

[sphagnum]

lets be clear, it's perfect legitimate to be critical of the Israeli government.

but the truth is that outside the Israel debate, Antisemitism exists among the fringes prone to believe that all capitalism is a conspiracy

Anarchists believe that, Communists believe that, Fringe groups believe that

Communists and such do not believe that capitalism is a conspiracy. Nobody believes that capitalists are literally sitting around conspiring about how to keep the proletariat oppressed. It's a system issue, the way that the structure of the capitalist mode of production replicates itself.

Regarding the OP, we're all pretty aware that Marx had dumb opinions. Thankfully they don't form the core of his criticism of capitalism. Antisemites on the left are idiots but I think pigeon already explained where they stem from pretty well. Probably the most shameful it got was the Stalin era "rootless cosmopolitan" shit.

 

[shockthrill]

The problem is left wing antisemitism is bundled up in a really complex series of issues whereas most of right wing antisemitism is pretty much just pure hate.

so Marx, why did Marx buy into that BS then, this quote always perplexed me, there are a few others from him

Himself being Jewish too....seems weird, self hatred?

 

[Cocaloch]

so Marx, why did Marx buy into that BS then, this quote always perplexed me, there are a few others from him

Himself being Jewish too

Do you honestly think modern day antisemitism on the left comes from Marx? Very very few leftists actually read Marx outside of his most vapid work.

 

[gutter_trash]

Uh, anarchists and communists are critical of capitalism but they don't think it's a "conspiracy", literally what are you talking about.

Anarchist and Communist are just as bad as Fascists

they join at the seams

Specifically, I don't think it's a huge problem with the mainstream left.

Where I think antisemitism is much more of an issue is among the hardcore anti-capitalist left, where you often see the same sort of "Jewish bankers/media and the Rothschild's etc. are controlling the world" that you see among the far right.

Mainstream parties and establishment parties who are either vanilla Left or vanilla Right are fairly Level Headed and Normal.

 

[shockthrill]

Do you honestly think modern day antisemitism on the left comes from Marx?

no

I just find it weird that Marx would buy into those ideas

 

[ClosingADoor]

Then again adding #weareright and #loveidf is kind of ideologically tinged.

Although she also put #freegaza and #coexist so I guess it is ambiguous.

I dunno. She posted it in 2014 when Israel were killing literally thousands of unarmed Palestinians. I personally think it's pretty fucked up.

Yes, the conflict is messed up. But a tweet supporting troops who are fighting against Hamas is not being a bigot. It is not supporting the killing of innocents or anything of the sort. I think most people just read into it what they want based on the opinion of the conflict. So I can't say it is fucked up to place such a tweet, because it does not say anything bad in itself.

I don't think the Left has a big issue with it, but I do believe that the state of Israel wants everyone to think there is. They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust. They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

But that isn't anything. Zionists will use any tactics, and take advantage of any sympathy to advance their cause. They're mostly atheists, and yet they'll justify the occupation with biblical quotes! They prey on the worst qualities of American conservatives by portraying themselves as a beautiful, white oasis in land of violent brown people.They ought to be criticized and called out at every turn, but there are still people like OP who buy into their well organized propaganda and will continue to do so until Palestine and its people cease to exist.

How is sending students to Holocaust memorials creating Zionists? That is a really strange opinion. Of course Jews would find it important to remember the Holocaust, as should we all.

 

[DorkLord54]

I most associate leftist anti-Semitism here in the States with the Nation of Islam and other hoteps, to be honest, though I know it exists in other corners as well.

 

[The Greek Freak]

Step 1: Stop calling anyone Nazi's who clearly see the disgusting apartheid as what it actually is so people take other claims of antisemitism from non over the top blatantly racist groups seriously.

 

[Khaz]

I don't think the Left has a big issue with it, but I do believe that the state of Israel wants everyone to think there is. They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust. They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

But that isn't anything. Zionists will use any tactics, and take advantage of any sympathy to advance their cause. They're mostly atheists, and yet they'll justify the occupation with biblical quotes! They prey on the worst qualities of American conservatives by portraying themselves as a beautiful, white oasis in land of violent brown people.They ought to be criticized and called out at every turn, but there are still people like OP who buy into their well organized propaganda and will continue to do so until Palestine and its people cease to exist.

I gather that you stand against the idea of having a Jewish State in the Middle-East?

 

[mlclmtckr]

Anarchist and Communist are just as bad as Fascists

they join at the seams

They're literally not, that is a stupid and uninformed opinion, read some books.

Or failing that explain to me how they're equally bad in terms of actual praxis. Explain how the recent DSA convention was just as bad as a Richard Spencer rally.

 

[Cocaloch]

no

I just find it weird that Marx would buy into those ideas

If you really want the reasons why though its because of historical reasons mixed with problems in his Hegelianism. The later isn't really present in modern leftism since the modern left isn't particularly Hegelian.

They're literally not, that is a stupid and uninformed opinion, read some books.

Or failing that explain to me how they're equally bad in terms of actual praxis. Explain how the recent DSA convention was just as bad as a Richard Spencer rally.

This is that poster's shtick.

 

[bionic77]

I agree 100 percent, but I still think we should have these discussions and try to route this

because we can never have any rational discourse with the far right, but we can at least try to be better on this issue

I agree with you.

If America was still acting normally I would even argue that this should be getting a lot more noise as anti-semitism and the attacks on Jews don't seem to get enough media attention.

But this is not a normal year nor is America acting like a normal country.

I feel that at least for the moment the whole fucking house is on fire and we can't get too caught up in one particular issue or problem. We have to all work together to get things back on track so we can have these discussions again and focus on progress instead of just trying to save what we have now.

 

[Quixzlizx]

To make a more elaborate post, I would say that there are a few main reasons why the left either engages in antisemitism or is indifferent to it.

1. The antisemitic trope (perpetuated by leftist luminaries like Marx, as shown in the OP) that equates Judaism with capitalism. So in this case, right-wing white supremacists find common cause with left-wing anti-capitalists when one of them rants about (((bankers/media/Hollywood/establishment))).

2a) Jews are seen as white (on the left)
2b) Jews have "model minority" status
The combination of these (along with 1) means that Jews are associated with the rich white oppressor class, rather than as a historically oppressed minority.

3) The antisemitic trope that all Jews are Zionists who support the Israeli government, which means Jews are equated with imperialism.

If someone is absorbing all three of these concepts through the media they consume and their political associations, it's going to lead to the conclusion, consciously or subconsciously, that Jews are the enemy.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Yes, the conflict is messed up. But a tweet supporting troops who are fighting against Hamas is not being a bigot. It is not supporting the killing of innocents or anything of the sort. I think most people just read into it what they want based on the opinion of the conflict. So I can't say it is fucked up to place such a tweet, because it does not say anything bad in itself.

But like

If during the most brutal days of the Chinese occupation of Tibet would it not be kind of weird for someone to publicly support the Chinese military?

Or the USSR in Czechoslovakia? Or France in Vietnam?

 

[shockthrill]

modern day communists are not authoritarian outright, but you will often see many so-called communists, especially among the youth who will wear soviet iconography


these are also the people that will say "the Soviet Union wasn't real marxism" but yet they wear the hammer and sickel

 

[gutter_trash]

They're literally not, that is a stupid and uninformed opinion, read some books.

Or failing that explain to me how they're equally bad in terms of actual praxis. Explain how the recent DSA convention was just as bad as a Richard Spencer rally.

I have witnessed both the Far-Right and the Far-Left and they both total shit.
(Portugal pre-1974 under Fascist Dictatorship who curtailed human rights,
Portugal 1974-1976 under Far-Left Commie jerks who stole left and right from hard working business owners then turned to country into an economic dumpster)

both extremes are bad, and I will always support vanilla boring establishment parties to cock-block any extreme

 

[pigeon]

so Marx, why did Marx buy into that BS then, this quote always perplexed me, there are a few others from him

Himself being Jewish too....seems weird, self hatred?

I mean, "On the Jewish Question" is a heavily debated and discussed essay for exactly that reason. Some would argue that it was a sign of the times -- keep in mind that the essay was explicitly written about whether Jews should have to give up Judaism in order to gain citizenship rights in Prussia (and Marx argues they should not, because a secular state should not concern itself with the religious choices of the individual).

 

[shawnbuddy]

I think there's definitely a horseshoe effect. When you go far enough to the left you get far enough to the left you get similar radicalized conspiratorial thinking as the right. The reasons for hating Jews and considering them oppressors are different, but the fanaticism is similar.

 

[sphagnum]

no

I just find it weird that Marx would buy into those ideas

Is it any weirder than Thomas Jefferson being a slave owning rapist?

 

[shockthrill]

Is it any weirder than Thomas Jefferson being a slave owning rapist?

Marx was Jewish himself, so yes a little bit

 

[pigeon]

these are also the people that will say "the Soviet Union wasn't real marxism" but yet they wear the hammer and sickel

That's because those are symbols of the worker and farmer and thus of communism. The Soviet Union used those symbols but they're not necessarily symbols OF the Soviet Union.

This is actually a very similar argument as the one about whether putting the Star of David on a flag makes it Israeli!

 

[Cocaloch]

modern day communists are not authoritarian outright, but you will often see many so-called communists, especially among the youth who will wear soviet iconography


these are also the people that will say "the Soviet Union wasn't real marxism" but yet they wear the hammer and sickel

People are dumb. I think the kinds of people most likely to do this are also the kinds of people least invested in actually thinking about these issues or doing anything politically.

That's because those are symbols of the worker and farmer and thus of communism. The Soviet Union used those symbols but they're not necessarily symbols OF the Soviet Union.

This is actually a very similar argument as the one about whether putting the Star of David on a flag makes it Israeli!

For the same reason I disagreed in that thread, I'm going to disagree here. The hammer and sickle are going to be interpreted as symbols of the Soviet Union. We aren't going to get around that any time soon.

 

[gfxtwin]

I mean, at the core both left and right wing anti-semitism pretty much come down to hate + stereotyping + scapegoating.

 

[shockthrill]

That's because those are symbols of the worker and thus of communism. The Soviet Union used those symbols but they're not necessarily symbols OF the Soviet Union.

This is actually a very similar argument as the one about whether putting the Star of David on a flag makes it Israeli!

but its explicitly linked to the Soviet Union in everyday society..when people see the hammer and sickle it's the symbol of the Soviet Union... and not the workers right

It's a similar argument if people were to use the swastika and justify it by saying "well its actually a Buddhist symbol of peace" well maybe, but its not today

 

[BravesCountry]

I'm Jewish and I ciriticize Israel all the time, in the face of many dogmatic pro-Netanyahu Jewish people. But yeah I've seen firsthand anti-semitism on this particular issue even in my school where a persons opinion was shutdown regarding the Israel Palestine conflict because they were Jewish. Like that was the actual reason they weren't allowed to voice their opinion on the matter.

 

[uncelestial]

Please at least identify some problematic takes and content and examples that you've encountered, OP, or this comes across as tone-policing the legitimate problems that progressives have with Israel.

You have to define the problem before asking for solutions.

 

[ApharmdX]

I most associate leftist anti-Semitism here in the States with the Nation of Islam and other hoteps, to be honest, though I know it exists in other corners as well.

I'd argue that the NOI and (most?) other hoteps are on the right side of the political spectrum rather than the left.

 

[shockthrill]

People are dumb. I think the kinds of people most likely to do this are also the kinds of people least invested in actually thinking about these issues or doing anything politically.

true

It's mostly middle age white kids that do it from what I have seen

 

[ClosingADoor]

But like

If during the most brutal days of the Chinese occupation of Tibet would it not be kind of weird for someone to publicly support the Chinese military?

Or the USSR in Czechoslovakia? Or France in Vietnam?

There is a conflict going on, so that is the logical time to voice your support, because it was about praying to keep Israeli citizens save during this conflict. Next to that she blamed Hamas, which is a terror organisation. Sure, you can read something bad in it, but that is just what you read into it then.

The situation is complicated, so I don't see much of a problem with someone praying for their fellow citizens and soldiers of their country to be save.

 

[Cocaloch]

I mean, at the core both left and right wing anti-semitism pretty much come down to hate + stereotyping + scapegoating.

People in this thread have pointed out different origins for it. Care to offer an explanation for why your understanding is correct?

 

[mlclmtckr]

I have witnessed both the Far-Right and the Far-Left and they both total shit.
(Portugal pre-1974 under Fascist Dictatorship who curtailed human rights,
Portugal 1974-1976 under Far-Left Commie jerks who stole left and right from hard working business owners)

both extremes are bad, and I will always support vanilla boring establishment parties to cock-block any extreme

That's not an answer. The Carnation Revolution ended Portuguese colonialism, restored human rights and more importantly ended after two years with democratic elections. It was corrupt and violent, like all revolutions, but it's not even close to comparable to the Fascist government.

Anyway that wasn't even my question. Please tell me, in comparing the present-day socialist, anarchist, and fascist movements, how you could possibly see them as equally bad?

 

[uncelestial]

Yes, the conflict is messed up. But a tweet supporting troops who are fighting against Hamas is not being a bigot. It is not supporting the killing of innocents or anything of the sort. I think most people just read into it what they want based on the opinion of the conflict. So I can't say it is fucked up to place such a tweet, because it does not say anything bad in itself.

Lose me with this garbage. It was during the most bloody part of the conflict. How would you have felt if you saw a celebrity cheering on the troops of one of our enemies in the thick of a war? Especially if that celebrity was an ex-soldier in their army? Also, the IDF are the enforcers of apartheid, even if that wasn't going on.

 

[sphagnum]

modern day communists are not authoritarian outright, but you will often see many so-called communists, especially among the youth who will wear soviet iconography


these are also the people that will say "the Soviet Union wasn't real marxism" but yet they wear the hammer and sickel

Hello.

It wasn't "real Marxist" because the means of production were not genuinely democratically controlled. The soviets were controlled by an unaccountable party that installed apparatchiks to be voted for. Therefore, while it used propaganda to position itself as the genuine dictatorship of the proletariat, it wasnt. The capitalist west had no reason to point out "hey wait that's not actually socialist" so everyone associates party-dictatorship command economies with socialism now even though it's wrong.

Now, despite the fact that the hammer and sickle was born of the revolution, its meaning has transcended that. You don't have to be a USSR stan to support the meaning it has taken on, which is the communist project in general and not specifically an alliance of proletariat and peasantry in Russia.

 

[shockthrill]

Please at least identify some problematic takes and content and examples that you've encountered, OP, or this comes across as tone-policing the legitimate problems that progressives have with Israel.

You have to define the problem before asking for solutions.

the main one is the use of "Zionism" in a conspiratory language, is probably what I have heard the most from people

"The Zionist control the media" "The Zionists control this and that"

and you have that one poster that just said in here "The Zionists send Jews to the holocaust museum to buy into Zionist propaganda"

I have heard the Khazar thing a few times as well,

 

[pigeon]

The problem is left wing antisemitism is bundled up in a really complex series of issues whereas most of right wing antisemitism is pretty much just pure hate.

The former is obviously a problem, but it's both less pressing, for obvious reasons, and far more difficult to deal due to its complexity and relationship to other problems.

I don't disagree with this, but I think it's important to understand how alienating it is for progressive Jewish people seeking solidarity in "resistance" groups to encounter anti-Semitic ideas there.

It's worth doing our best to make sure they have a safe haven so that we can set the marker that anti-Semitism is not welcome. Otherwise they won't be part of the activist left.

 

[Cocaloch]

That's not an answer. The Carnation Revolution ended Portuguese colonialism, restored human rights and more importantly ended after two years with democratic elections. It was corrupt and violent, like all revolutions, but it's not even close to comparable to the Fascist government.

Anyway that wasn't even my question. Please tell me, in comparing the present-day socialist, anarchist, and fascist movements, how you could possibly see them as equally bad?

You aren't going to get through to that poster. His interpretation of what happened in Portugal is the core of his understanding of literally every political situation.

I don't disagree with this, but I think it's important to understand how alienating it is for progressive Jewish people seeking solidarity in "resistance" groups to encounter anti-Semitic ideas there.

It's worth doing our best to make sure they have a safe haven so that we can set the marker that anti-Semitism is not welcome. Otherwise they won't be part of the activist left.

And I'd agree with this, but we also have to make sure that in combating antisemitism we aren't also erecting a space in which Palestinians oppression is justified. That's the complexity I'm talking about.

 

[mlclmtckr]

There is a conflict going on, so that is the logical time to voice your support, because it was about praying to keep Israeli citizens save during this conflict. Next to that she blamed Hamas, which is a terror organisation. Sure, you can read something bad in it, but that is just what you read into it then.

The situation is complicated, so I don't see much of a problem with someone praying for their fellow citizens and soldiers of their country to be save.

So it's literally always okay? A guy on the radio in 1943 saying "I'm praying for all our boys in the Wehrmacht" isn't a little bit concerning?

Spoiler

PS fuck Godwin and his Law

 

[Tubobutts]

Criticism of Israel is not automatically anti-semitic. For some reason this has morphed into it being impossible for criticism of Israel to be anti-semitic. I think it starts to move into anit-semitism if your criticism consists of the same old anti-semitic conspiracy theories but you've replaced the word "Jew" with "Zionist" or if any time the possibility of anti-semitism is brought up as existing you show up to say "Yeah but Israel" or start talking about how anti-semitism is a Zionist conspiracy like the junior earlier in the thread.


Or posting slurs and saying that America is controlled by the Jews because the poster was smart enough to post it in a thread about Israel being extra shitty.

And maybe it's just something I notice more because I'm half Sephardic/ half Ashkenazi, but there seems to be a tendency to ignore the existence of non-Ashkenazi Jews so that all Jews can be considered as "white" and therefore not considered to be "real" minorities. Like I get that in America the overwhelming majority of Jewish people you meet are going to be Ashkenazim but it's still annoying.