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[ClosingADoor]

Lose me with this garbage. It was during the most bloody part of the conflict. How would you have felt if you saw someone cheering on the troops of one of our enemies in the thick of a war?

This implies that Israel is always the enemy. But the conflict is complicated. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. So... who do you supports in a conflict between the two? There are no clear answers here, otherwise the issue would have been solved already.

Yes, Israel has been guilty of a lot of bad things. But saying you want your fellow Israeli's and soldiers to be save, does not mean you automatically agree with where the generals fire their rockets.

So it's literally always okay? A guy on the radio in 1943 saying "I'm praying for all our boys in the Wehrmacht" isn't a little bit concerning?

Spoiler

PS fuck Godwin and his Law

You are really losing me with the comparison here. Nazi Germany attacked multiple countries unprovoked. The Israeli conflict is not as black and white.

Let me then ask you this: is everyone who voiced support of American troops during the Iraq war a bigot? Because that conflict was also not started with just good intentions and a lot of civilians died.

 

[pigeon]

Or like how the mods don't have a problem with slurs or saying that America is controlled by the Jews because the poster was smart enough to post it in a thread about Israel being extra shitty.

Wow, that's a really unacceptable post. Did you PM it to a mod?

 

[gutter_trash]

That's not an answer. The Carnation Revolution ended Portuguese colonialism, restored human rights and more importantly ended after two years with democratic elections. It was corrupt and violent, like all revolutions, but it's not even close to comparable to the Fascist government.

Anyway that wasn't even my question. Please tell me, in comparing the present-day socialist, anarchist, and fascist movements, how you could possibly see them as equally bad?

History Revisonism.

The Carnation Revolution did not restore Human Rights, it was the subsequent elected governments that did years later.

The Revolutionaries wanted to install their own brand as seen in Venezuela's Chavez-Madurro types.

But over years of instability, the people rejected the Far-Left and decided to elect vanilla Establishment Governments instead. It's those Governments that installed Human Rights democracy and Stability.

Not the Revolutionaries on the Far-Left.

 

[sphagnum]

Marx was Jewish himself, so yes a little bit

Well yeah, but not any more than other self hating Jews.

 

[pigeon]

Well yeah, but not any more than other self hating Jews.

You know who else had Jewish blood and yet advanced some pretty anti-Semitic ideas?

 

[shockthrill]

You know who else had Jewish blood and yet advanced some pretty anti-Semitic ideas?

Kafka?

 

[mlclmtckr]

idk man when a ruling military junta holds free elections and abides by their results in my book they're clearly better than the fascists they overthrew

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Sorry, on the left I see much more legitimate criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians than wacky conspiracy theories or whatever. Being an apartheid state has alienated Israel from a lot of younger progressive Americans. An ethno/theocratic state is just not something that we are ok with.

I'm sure that there's real antisemitism on the left but I don't think it's common. And until the state of Israel cleans its act up it will find less and less support in the American left.

My feelings as well. I'm not angry with Israel for being Jewish, I'm angry at them for stealing land and other abuses.

 

[pigeon]

Kafka?

That was actually a Hitler joke but sure, Kafka not great either.

 

[gutter_trash]

idk man when a ruling military junta holds free elections and abides by their results in my book they're clearly better than the fascists they overthrew

the small window of 2 years were they were in change caused enough damage to last a decades worth of downturn, land grabbing and nationalization

 

[sphagnum]

You know who else had Jewish blood and yet advanced some pretty anti-Semitic ideas?

That's right...

Spoiler

Paul

 

[Jag]

But yeah I've seen firsthand anti-semitism on this particular issue even in my school where a persons opinion was shutdown regarding the Israel Palestine conflict because they were Jewish. Like that was the actual reason they weren't allowed to voice their opinion on the matter.

That's happening in Universities all over the US and Canada. SJP is probably the driving force behind most of it at colleges and their supporters post anti-Semitic stuff all the time.

Here's just one person, I can find a hell of alot more.

“Why did Hitler commit suicide?…….. He saw the gas bill. Pahhahaha.”

— Ala’a Salem, Twitter, October 18, 2012

“If you piss me off, you are automatically counted as a #jew in my book.”

— Ala’a Salem, Twitter, January 10, 2012

“#iAlwaysSay kus im il yahood [F**k the Jews].”

— Ala’a Salem, Twitter, January 7, 2012

“I could be outside enjoying the weather. But instead I have to hear about how millions of jews died #ohgoody.”

— Ala’a Salem, Twitter, February 17, 2012

“I always do it big, likee a jewish nose! Haha.”

— Ala’a Salem, Twitter, January 1, 2012

 

[gfxtwin]

People in this thread have pointed out different origins for it. Care to offer an explanation for why your understanding is correct?

Implying that those things are the origins of it might have been poor wording on my part, but there seems to be at least a throughline consisting of hostility+stereotyping+scapegoating.

 

[Cocaloch]

Implying that those things are the origins of it might have been poor wording on my part, but there seems to be at least a throughline consisting of hostility+stereotyping+scapegoating.

I mean surely that's there to some extent, but it also seems undeniable that a lot of it comes from an understanding of Zionism in particular.

 

[uncelestial]

the main one is the use of "Zionism" in a conspiratory language, is probably what I have heard the most from people

"The Zionist control the media" "The Zionists control this and that"

So, link to some left-wing people saying this! Sounds crackpot for sure but I don't hear a lot of that stuff on the left.

and you have that one poster that just said in here "The Zionists send Jews to the holocaust museum to buy into Zionist propaganda"

That dude went to bat for alt-right Adult Swim shows, I wouldn't call him left-wing either.

I have heard the Khazar thing a few times as well,

Look, I'm not saying this isn't a thing, but all good discussions start with an OP that really frames a phenomenon and puts it in context so it can be talked about fairly and clearly. Even a BuzzFeed article would start with generalizations and dip in to examples. I would really consider beefing up the OP while the thread is relatively young because Zionism and Israel are deeply problematic to the left for obvious reasons and the line you're trying to draw is unclear. I am pretty sure this is going to devolve into potshots pretty quickly and you may have already lost the opportunity to get people to say, "yeah, that thing you pointed out is messed up."

 

[mlclmtckr]

the small window of 2 years were they were in change caused enough damage to last a decades worth of downturn, land grabbing and nationalization

Were there wars of aggression? Race-based policies? Ethnic scapegoating? Suspension of democracy? No? Then how the hell was it as bad as a fascist regime?

Not to mention the murderous racist colonial project that ended when Portugese fascism did. Are we just not counting those millions of people?

 

[kirblar]

The issue with left-wing criticism on Israel is people who really really want to be anti-semitic will use it as a pretext to be shitty awful people in public and get away with it (much like how Trump's MAGA campaign let all sorts of awful people into the daylight of public discourse.)

This isn't to say that you can't criticize Israel (there's plenty of legitimate criticism, J Street is a thing, etc.) but you need to be on alert for this stuff not only because you don't want these people infesting your movements, but because those who do want to deliberately conflate all criticism as anti-semitic will jump on the opportunity to use these people as an example.

 

[pigeon]

I mean surely that's there to some extent, but it also seems undeniable that a lot of it comes from an understanding of Zionism in particular.

Maybe you could unpack a little here what "Zionism" consists of. I'm not always sure people mean the same thing by it.

 

[Tubobutts]

Wow, that's a really unacceptable post. Did you PM it to a mod?

No, partly because I wasn't sure who to pm and also because I wanted to see if anything would be done without it having to be called out. Which on second thought is pretty shitty of me because there's always the possibility that a mod never saw it so it's unfair of me to say that they're ok with it. So I'm going to edit that part out.

 

[sphagnum]

I've always heard the Khazar thing on the far right, usually by racist Christians who claim Jesus was white and the modern Jews are not from the same stock as him because the Khazars replaced the ancient Aryan Jews.

 

[Cocaloch]

Maybe you could unpack a little here what "Zionism" consists of. I'm not always sure people mean the same thing by it.

That's why I used the word understanding here. It's not my understanding of Zionism that's at play here, not to mention I wouldn't say I have a single understanding of Zionism because I think the word ends up describing quite different things at different times.

What is at play is a large number of different somewhat related ideas that people associate generally with championing a specifically Jewish state in the Middle East.

Some of these understanding are analytically useful. Some are not. Some are also probably antisemitic at their core, others are not. What matters is that they are all attached to developments, policies, and political culture instead of nebulous ideas about what Jews are a la the right's antisemitism. That's not to say none of this comes from stereotypes obviously some of it does, instead this is to say what's going on here is both fundamentally different and also connected with other issues. There will not be a neat solution.

Additionally, we aren't going to find one definition of Zionism that fits what everyone thinks here. Both this thread and the one on the Star of David Flag demonstrate that.

 

[shockthrill]

I don't think the Left has a big issue with it, but I do believe that the state of Israel wants everyone to think there is. They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust. They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

But that isn't anything. Zionists will use any tactics, and take advantage of any sympathy to advance their cause. They're mostly atheists, and yet they'll justify the occupation with biblical quotes! They prey on the worst qualities of American conservatives by portraying themselves as a beautiful, white oasis in land of violent brown people.They ought to be criticized and called out at every turn, but there are still people like OP who buy into their well organized propaganda and will continue to do so until Palestine and its people cease to exist.

do you seriously believe what you are writing my friend?

 

[SecretMoblin]

I often see it here (yes, here) and elsewhere as a version of the Jewish/white question, where Israel is conceived as a white European colonial project. Engage with the debate on that premise, and suddenly you've opened a Pandora's Box of issues about Jews as a race, the need for a Jewish homeland, colonialism writ large, and contemporary Israelis as effectively complicit in large-scale oppression (or often, genocide) by birth.

It's weird and annoying but I don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to rush into every. single. thread. on the issue and preemptively tone police regarding "I'm going to criticize Israeli policy and how dare people call me antisemitic".

 

[shockthrill]

I often see it here (yes, here) and elsewhere as a version of the Jewish/white question, where Israel is conceived as a white European colonial project. Engage with the debate on that premise, and suddenly you've opened a Pandora's Box of issues about Jews as a race, the need for a Jewish homeland, colonialism writ large, and contemporary Israelis as effectively complicit in large-scale oppression (or often, genocide) by birth.

It's weird and annoying but I don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to rush into every. single. thread. on the issue and preemptively tone police regarding "I'm going to criticize Israeli policy and how dare people call me antisemitic".

this is a very important part of what i was trying to say as well, you said it much better than I did

 

[Bebpo]

Yeah, I'm not religious at all, but I'm part Jewish descent (grew up going to temple) and although I'm very left-wing anti-Israel/pro-Palestine it occasionally gets awkward when I see stuff from the left about rich Jews running Hollywood or jokes making fun of Jews. Like it's one thing when it's like South Park when it's just silly fun (I'm a lawyer and lawyer jokes don't bother me for this reason), but a lot of the time it feels like people are not entirely joking and actually believe to a degree in "evil Jews are the cause of our problems" thing which is sorta disturbing to see on the left.

That saying, Jews don't have it anywhere as bad as minorities in the US, so it's not a big deal to me, but it does feel like it exists and is more from the left than right which is weird since right is all about that racism.

 

[shockthrill]

Yeah, I'm not religious at all, but I'm part Jewish descent (grew up going to temple) and although I'm very left-wing anti-Israel/pro-Palestine it occasionally gets awkward when I see stuff from the left about rich Jews running Hollywood or jokes making fun of Jews. Like it's one thing when it's like South Park when it's just silly fun (I'm a lawyer and lawyer jokes don't bother me for this reason), but a lot of the time it feels like people are not entirely joking and actually believe to a degree in "evil Jews are the cause of our problems" thing which is sorta disturbing to see on the left.

That saying, Jews don't have it anywhere as bad as minorities in the US, so it's not a big deal to me, but it does feel like it exists and is more from the left than right which is weird since right is all about that racism.

anti-semitism is a bigger problem in Europe than it is in the states

 

[Man God]

When I delved deep into the anti semitism that some of my leftist friends had I found out that what seemed like deep seated concern over Palestine and the middle east in general usually gave way to the same thing that causes anti semitism on the right; parents and friends making anti semetic comments.

One of my aunts during her religious phase was all about it because "The Jews killed Jesus" and now as a super liberal is all about it because of Israel's connection with the republican party and human rights abuses. I know a couple of friends who made remarks in high school that were anti semetic because of the conspiracy theory shit they heard from their folks and now have switched excuses.

 

[verbatimo]

Anti-semitism in Europe has rised following unprecedented migrant crisis.

As Europe receives greater numbers of Muslim migrants, violent antisemitism will continue to rise. And as the philosophy of radical Islam takes hold of more young Muslims, so too will the antisemitism that follows it.

A University of Oslo study published in June is one of the most methodologically sophisticated and comprehensive reports exploring the growth of Europe’s antisemitism problem.

http://www.hlsenteret.no/publikasjo...isk-vold-i-europa_engelsk_endelig-versjon.pdf

 

[AntraxSuicide]

If you're engaging with someone intelligently and you think the conversation has strayed from legitimate criticism of the Israeli government and moved into an anti-Semitic thing, I always ask that person to consider their feelings if Israel did what they're specifically asking for. A lot of people I've put that question to have come back honestly (again this is only with people I talk to often in political circles, not Facebook comments or anything), and they'll find that sometimes their anger isn't entirely justified (or rather, their anger isn't based on the justified criticism).

If Israel stopped with its apartheid programs and became much more democratic, would you still feel a bit negative on them? If so, then you may not be feeling that way because of their policies but instead are using those bad policies to justify your hate/anger/negativity/etc...

Of course, you may also just be talking to a racist who isn't speaking in good faith, but there's not much you can do there other than shun them.

 

[sploatee]

Criticism of Israel is not automatically anti-semitic. For some reason this has morphed into it being impossible for criticism of Israel to be anti-semitic. I think it starts to move into anit-semitism if your criticism consists of the same old anti-semitic conspiracy theories but you've replaced the word "Jew" with "Zionist" or if any time the possibility of anti-semitism is brought up as existing you show up to say "Yeah but Israel" or start talking about how anti-semitism is a Zionist conspiracy like the junior earlier in the thread.


Or posting slurs and saying that America is controlled by the Jews because the poster was smart enough to post it in a thread about Israel being extra shitty.

And maybe it's just something I notice more because I'm half Sephardic/ half Ashkenazi, but there seems to be a tendency to ignore the existence of non-Ashkenazi Jews so that all Jews can be considered as "white" and therefore not considered to be "real" minorities. Like I get that in America the overwhelming majority of Jewish people you meet are going to be Ashkenazim but it's still annoying.

Me too. My dad is Moroccan (going back generations) and the culture is a really vibrant mix of Arabic, Spanish and Jewish traditions. I find it really frustrating that Arabic and Sephardic Jewish people are completely erased in most of the discussion as is their fleeing from many of the countries where they had roots (e.g. Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq, Syria...).

It's not just white Jew colonist against indigenous brown people! It's western governments playing games with political groups and facilitating and feeding a situation that others are paying for now.

All I really care about is peace, but the way the discussion is framed by lots of well meaning westerners is really irritating to me as a lefty. It can't just be reduced to Israel oppressor bad! Palestine oppressed good! And I say that as someone who wants freedom for Palestine and it's people. The British need to be held to account. The European countries who refused to readmit their Jewish refugees after WW2, the middle Eastern countries that expelled their Jewish populations (effectively collectively punishing their Jewish people in the same abhorrent way the Israeli government does in Gaza), the Jordanian government who was complicit in the annexing of Palestine , the one sided support of Israel by the USA etc etc...

This reductive discussion has got us where we are now, with western and Arab governments now fighting proxy wars for domestic political gains, and the far left and far right using the conflict for other aims. I'm so tired of this conflict between people who have so much in common. It's people like me caught in the middle who are the majority of the victims of all of these complex external forces that we are powerless against. You can't just fix it with BDS, "Jew bad!" or "build more settlements!"

Ugh. It's all so sad. People love to hate.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Caring about Palestine over the absolute embarrassment of the US government's positions most the time will eventually be considered antisemitic and 'anti jew'.

When we have a bipartian congress trying to outlaw BDS through the power of the lobby of the right wing israeli goverment in America, i find the victim complex very disgusting.

Calling for israel's destruction = bad

Calling out the absolute unbalanced perspective = good

 

[Cocaloch]

The British need to be held to account.

Who are you talking to that doesn't hold the British to account on this? Everyone I know but the staunchest Zionists who refuse to acknowledge Israel has ever done anything wrong puts blame on the British what's gone on there since the mandate, and those staunch Zionists blame the British for the fact that Zionism took so long to be realized.

 

[rudger]

I have often been more critical of Israel than most of my friends but joining neogaf has made me faaar more defensive of them than I ever expected. The sheer ignorance on the subject and anti-Semitic rhetoric is straight up astounding.

I have been told on this forum that believing that Israel has a right to exist means I believe in genocide.

That a blue Jewish star is a symbol of hate.

That Zionism is a white nationalist movement that believes in ethnic cleansing.

In this thread, multiple posters have jumped in just to say that criticizing Israel isn't anti-Semitic and that people keep making that argument...I have looked at a lot of the Israel threads and haven't noticed one person doing that. So I find this knee jerk reaction fascinating....except I don't. It's obvious that people are trying to justify their harsh rhetoric without thinking critically about what they are saying. And people say it to my posts when pointing out that the rhetoric mentioned above is couched in anti-Semitic rhetoric (cause it is). I have no qualms being critical of Israel. If Netanyahu was kicked out tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear.

But if you find yourself saying you don't believe in Israel because you don't believe in ethno states, you should probably think very deeply about what you do believe in. You sound as ignorant of the world as somebody saying they don't see race. That's a nice concept, but completely devoid of reality.

And a sidenot to whomever said there isn't an issue in American politics cause both sides support Israel - this is not entirely false, but a huuuuuge reason for that is based on strategic military and intelligence gathering reasons. They are a vital ally in the region, so I wouldn't really assume everybody is fine with israels actions. I was a big fan of what Obama had to say on the matter (though it kind of fucked Democrats with the pro-Israel lobby).

 

[Valhelm]

I've always heard the Khazar thing on the far right, usually by racist Christians who claim Jesus was white and the modern Jews are not from the same stock as him because the Khazars replaced the ancient Aryan Jews.

I don't think any leftists believe that BS, just certain Nazis and the Black Israelite guys on Times Square.

 

[Prodigal Son]

i clicked this thread thinking 'oh neogaf' but im pleasantly surprised a distinction is being made here between criticisms of the right-wing israeli government and obvious antisemitism. I've definitely seen some of the latter in some really really far-left groups (marxists)

 

[Cocaloch]

In this thread, multiple posters have jumped in just to say that criticizing Israel isn't anti-Semitic and that people keep making that argument...I have looked at a lot of the Israel threads and haven't noticed one person doing that.

People did that on the Star of David thread. And honestly you did it to some degree in that post.

But if you find yourself saying you don't believe in Israel because you don't believe in ethno states, you should probably think very deeply about what you do believe in. You sound as ignorant of the world as somebody saying they don't see race. That's a nice concept, but completely devoid of reality.

It's not comparable to that at all. One statement is a description of what some people think the world should be like, the other is a declaration used to minimize current race problems that clearly do exist.

I think it's pretty clear historically that the idea of national states has done a massive amount of harm, and that nation-states are not the only possible polities.

 

[Carcetti]

but keep deluding yourself in thinking that anti-israel criticism is purely a criticism of the state and doesn't conflate with anti-semitism in some way

This dumbass line of thought is what keeps this discussion failing and dishonest always. It's pure conspiracy drivel when you can't admit what a shitty state you're propping up.

I can't talk about US but the left European criticism of Israel is (maybe should be 'was', since it's changing thanks to immigration... but not sure I'd count these people leftists) purely based on Israel's actions. Until a few years ago I'd never heard anyone attack on Jewish people as en ethnicity apart from movie nazis, and the idea of people having something against the Jews in here was just crazy. Then it started to appear, and always from the right wing looney conspiracy / neo nazi sites that have been worming their way into mainstream thanks to the whole 'fake news' loonery. Now every time antisemitism rears its head around here it's part of that racist GamerGate type crowd who apparently have to hate on everyone minority.

 

[shockthrill]

This dumbass line of thought is what keeps this discussion failing and dishonest always. It's pure conspiracy drivel when you can't admit what a shitty state you're propping up.

I can't talk about US but the left European criticism of Israel is purely based on Israel's actions. Until a few years ago I'd never heard anyone attack on Jewish people as en ethnicity apart from movie nazis, and the idea of people having something against the Jews in here was just crazy. Then it started to appear, and always from the right wing looney conspiracy / neo nazi sites that have been worming their way into mainstream thanks to the whole 'fake news' loonery. Now every time antisemitism rears its head around here it's part of that racist GamerGate type crowd who apparently have to hate on everyone minority.

I admit I should of used better language

but i do think alot of discourse falls into the anti-semetic trap, the use of zionism in conspiratory language

 

[pigeon]

That's right...

Spoiler

Paul

Winner.

I don't even know what happened to this guy. Like did he have a stroke or something and suddenly become anti-semitic?

 

[rudger]

People did that on the Star of David thread. And honestly you did it to some degree in that post.



It's not comparable to that at all. One statement is a description of what some people think the world should be like, the other is a declaration used to minimize current race problems that clearly do exist.

I think it's pretty clear historically that the idea of national states has done a massive amount of harm, and that nation-states are not the only possible polities.

I was speaking of my experience and I will need a link to comment on that thread as I'm sure you're aware of gaf's search functionality...

I'm not saying ethno states are the only option. I'm saying they are a reality and in this particular subject to be against them is naive as both sides want it. Race is also a harmful social construct. I don't tell people not to identify as one.

 

[Enzom21]

No, partly because I wasn't sure who to pm and also because I wanted to see if anything would be done without it having to be called out. Which on second thought is pretty shitty of me because there's always the possibility that a mod never saw it so it's unfair of me to say that they're ok with it. So I'm going to edit that part out.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showgroups.php
Mods aren't all seeing, you need to PM them for shit like that.
Also, that person's post history is quite something.

 

[Cocaloch]

I was speaking of my experience and I will need a link to comment on that thread

About one second of searching yielded this

This is straight up anti-semitism but it's alright I guess cuz Zionism?

I recall there being more.

I'm sure you're aware of gaf's search functionality...

Okay

I'm not saying ethno states are the only option

I mean you're saying it's ridiculous, in your words ignorant of the world, to suggest that we point out there are problems with them.

I'm saying they are a reality

This is pretty meaningless in suggesting the value of the concept.

Race is also a harmful social construct. I don't tell people not to identify as one.

That's another very poor comparison, people not self-identifying as a certain race won't stop others from identifying them as part of that race. States being organized on ethnic lines is something that the state in question does.

 

[rudger]

About one second of searching yielded this

This is straight up anti-semitism but it's alright I guess cuz Zionism?

I recall there being more.

Wow. The example you are citing is literally the thread I was primarily talking about in the original post you responded to - which is why it never dawned on me that was the one you were talking about.

In that thread I posted this. Which I stand by. Especially since the Dyke March organizers later called Zionism an inherently white-supremacist ideology - which is....fascinating.

Then they got in trouble for this little nugget.

So yeah, my main point in that thread was that people were speaking with anti-semitic rhetoric without necessarily understanding that's what they were doing and I sure as shit stand by that sentiment given how the organizers continued to act afterwards.

EDIT:

I got called Anti-Semitic because I said the Palestine situation is fucked up.. Idk how they stretched that so far.

I just want to be clear that I'm not okay with this.

 

[KillLaCam]

I got called Anti-Semitic because I said the Palestine situation is fucked up.. Idk how they stretched that so far.

 

[sploatee]

Who are you talking to that doesn't hold the British to account on this? Everyone I know but the staunchest Zionists who refuse to acknowledge Israel has ever done anything wrong puts blame on the British what's gone on there since the mandate, and those staunch Zionists blame the British for the fact that Zionism took so long to be realized.

Maybe I am talking to the wrong people.

When you say "held to account" what do you mean? I don't think the British have ever formally or openly acknowledged their part in this mess. Please correct me though if I'm wrong.

 

[travisbickle]

Origins of this idea, can go back to Marx himself, but probably even before. It's interesting once you find out that Marx was an anti-semite and often made disparaging remarks about Jewish people

Marx wasn't anti-semitic, he despised all religions equally and viewed religion as prop to help capitalism. He wanted to rid the world of all the systems of power and hegemony he believed there to be, and he would call out political oppression against religious groups whenever he heard about it. Dude would constantly write letters to people about the wrongs he felt were in the world, and that included anti-semitism.

 

[Jackpot]

The extremist fringe of the Left does trend towards anti-semitism more than any other xenophobia, and that's speaking as a self-declared Liberal with a large anti-Israeli apartheid thread history.

I view it as the result of anti-Israeli and anti-capitalist views gone too far combined with the conspiracy predisposition of any extremist nutjob morphing into this particular brand of hate, bolstered slightly by wanting to counter Islamophobia so much we sometimes welcome in people whose views deserve more scrutiny.

 

[phanphare]

honestly I think a big problem is that for a variety of reasons some on the left don't really consider the Jewish people as oppressed and haven't really had to consider that until recently. in America, at least. in Europe anti-semitism has been rampant for a long while so that thought process likely doesn't play but I'm not too familiar with that stuff other than broad stroke stuff like Germany being great in regards to anti-semitism and France and Italy being awful so much so that Jews who want to travel there are highly encouraged to hide their Judaism for the duration of their stay. as far as America is concerned there are a few reasons why this is and the two that I think are the biggest are that in a post-Holocaust world Jews experienced an unprecedented level of acceptance and also that Jews tend to be disproportionately privileged compared to other minorities. because of the unprecedented acceptance post-Holocaust in America Jews were almost seen as just being white so they sort of got lumped in with a more privileged group. also because of the disproportionate amount of Jews actually being privileged people tend to generalize too much and fall into the usual stereotypes like Jews controlling the media and and being money hungry and whatnot.

it's definitely an issue

the Israel thing is a much more complicated thing because yes anti-Israel sentiment can also border on anti-semitism but honestly every side has fucked up in that regard. Zionism itself intentionally uses a lot of Jewish imagery and tries their damnedest to link all Jews to Zionism. so people who are against Israel have been conditioned to have a negative emotional reaction to certain Jewish things like the Star of David. it's a fucked up mess basically and if any anti-Israel sentiment turns to anti-semitism it's basically playing right into the Zionists' hand. they want that to happen because they want to be able to play that card. it's hard being a Jew who doesn't subscribe to all of the pro-Israel stuff because on the one hand you want to be critical but on the other you get so many cases where people are having negative reactions to certain things that are inherent to your identity and it's hard not to have an emotional reaction to that. I'm guilty of this as well, I made that thread about the Star of David stuff at the pride parade and yeah on a base reaction level that shit makes me feel all types of negative things. in my defense the media wasn't very good at reporting what actually happened and painted it as anti-semitism from the jump which influenced how I viewed that situation and then the facts started trickling out and of course there was more to the story.

I definitely think the left could be better about that kind of stuff though. they're typically good with Islamophobia type stuff and separating the bullshit from the religion and people as a whole. I think a lot of that mentality should be applied to Jews as well. the thing there is that Zionism is basically shoved down liberal Jews' throats and it starts at a young age. Reform Jews and some Conservative Jews (the religious sect, not politically conservative) tend to be quite liberal but they also (in my view) get brainwashed at a young age in regards to Israel. kids are taught to love Israel before they even know that there's a conflict going on. then when they get older they start getting taught about the conflict and of course it's from a very specific point of view which curates facts to shape a certain narrative. so a lot of liberal Jews are pro-Israel which tends to be problematic in regards to their acceptance as a whole on the left.

 

[Kazaam]

I don't think the Left has a big issue with it, but I do believe that the state of Israel wants everyone to think there is. They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust. They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

But that isn't anything. Zionists will use any tactics, and take advantage of any sympathy to advance their cause. They're mostly atheists, and yet they'll justify the occupation with biblical quotes! They prey on the worst qualities of American conservatives by portraying themselves as a beautiful, white oasis in land of violent brown people.They ought to be criticized and called out at every turn, but there are still people like OP who buy into their well organized propaganda and will continue to do so until Palestine and its people cease to exist.

Wow.

Also here's a Labour MP in the UK.

I think the problem is being so aggressively passionate against policies of Israel that it becomes hard differentiating between the government and the people. That plus a mixture of actual antisemitism that is mistaken as an affront to Israel's government and also a lot of reductionism on a lot of complex subjects. As a romanian jew living in UK I've been shut down by many "progressive" leftists simply because I'm a jew. As an example.. in 2014 a lot of people, colleagues and friends that I've thought of as being very liberal and open minded, would reproach things to me about Israel's doing or even refuse to work with me. I've never lived in Israel. Not to mention that the idea of me having an opinion on the conflict was insane, unless I would immediately declare war on Israel and its people.

Also for the poster I just quoted. "Zionist will use any tactics" like sending "their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust." I have lost family during the Holocaust, but even if I didn't.. visiting holocaust memorials and understanding what happened is a very important part for jewish culture. So not only was the statement antisemitic, but it's quite the conspiratorial one as well.

 

[Condom]

I have not ever seen marxists do this (as it is against the theory of materialist history) and have never seen that quote before. So it's more for the non-educated 'leftists' (wouldn't even call that left but ok). Do you have a source for the quote?