What does the Ottoman empire have to do with anything? The Arabs (of Jewish, Christian and Muslim faith) were oppressed under their empire and aided the British in their ousting.
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Left Wing Anti-Semitism: Origins and how to combat it
- Thread starter shockthrill
- Start date
What does the Ottoman empire have to do with anything? The Arabs (of Jewish, Christian and Muslim faith) were oppressed under their empire and aided the British in their ousting.
The Ottoman empire has been dead for almost 100 years. The settlements are going on at this very moment.
Honestly I don't even see what you're getting at here unless it's just particularly unsubtle whataboutism. Honestly this just reads like a totally off topic apology for European imperialism.
Which is funny, because the Ottomans were generally far better than Europeans at dealing with religious minorities.
shockthrill
Banned
Anti-Jewish sentiment among Arabs is not a recent phenomenon,when you can find blatently anti-semetic phrases in the Quran, the Hadith, the treatment of Jews as dhimmi essentially inferior to muslims etc.
Does Israel play a role in this hatred, yes but its not the main reason. It all goes back to religious doctrine
one of the Hadiths talks about how Jews will hide behind trees and stones and the trees will cry out loud to muslims that a jew is hiding behind me, come and kill him
It gets weird and complicated. Really no matter what side you come down on, even on specific issues, you'll end up allied with some truly hateful groups. It's pretty much unavoidable. With religion being intertwined so much in national and ethnic identity and government in that region I don't know of any good solution. Especially at the moment with multiple people in power with genocidal desires.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but crosses a line into indiscriminate killing and mass murder. This too is the main military tactic of the Palestinian resistance, except they just lack the military might of Israel. They're even willing to kill their own people to make Israel's actions look even worse.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but crosses a line into indiscriminate killing and mass murder. This too is the main military tactic of the Palestinian resistance, except they just lack the military might of Israel. They're even willing to kill their own people to make Israel's actions look even worse.
You can find lots of words in lots of religious texts. It's certainly easy to do that to show that Christianity is antisemetic. But what actually matters is looking at how people act, and the situation has undoubtedly gotten significantly worse since Balfour. I mean Jewish people and Muslims had been living together relatively quite peacefully in the area for quite some time.
This is of course not what that poster was talking about anyway. He was making some weird argument about how Europe's imperialism wasn't that bad, funny coming from a person of Portuguese descent living in a British settler colony, because some Turks had an empire too.
It's difficult to verbally differentiate between Israel and the Jewish people because Israel conflates the criticism of one with the hatred of the other. It's a way to discredit those critical of Israel without having to answer for the invasions, ethnic cleansings and slaughter of non-combatants. At the same time, criticizing Zionism becomes tricky because nationalists have coopted the term "Zionist" and turned it into a pseudo anti-semetic slur.
The language of criticizing Israel is very tricky for those reasons.
DongBeetle
Banned
Now we're getting into some strange Islamaphobia
shockthrill
Banned
not all religions are the same and not all religious texts are the same,so this argument doesn't work
"well what about the Christian old testament and its violence and hatred"
its important to realize that Christians have always interpreted the bible differently. In Christianity the bible was never see as God's complete word,but a divinely inspired text, but it was clearly understood by the early Christians that it was a text by men that was open to interpretation and change
Muslims viewed the Quran differently. The Quran is seem as God's complete literal word that cannot be altered or change.
I don't mean to get into a theological dispute, but I am quite tired of that argument, well what about the violence in the bible? when talking about Islam
This was going on before Islam with European Christian anti-semitism.
Why do today's Arab Christians hate Jews then?
shockthrill
Banned
so pointing out that one of the Hadiths talks about Jews being killed by Muslims is "strange islamaphobia"?
Of course all religions aren't the same. I do see how that says anything about my argument? My argument was that simply finding parts of a text that say something isn't that big of a deal, because religion isn't a collection of old books, it's a lived experience.
I'm sorry man, but this is laughable. Have you never heard of sola scriptura, or this guy named Calvin? Taking the bible to be the be all end all is certainly a talking point for major sects of Christianity. Which again isn't that important when evaluating what religion is as a lived experience. What is important is seeing how these ideas are manifested in practice.
That's not the argument at all, honestly that seems like a willful misinterpretation of my argument. The argument was we don't make sweeping statements about what Christianity is based on a few passages, so why would we make sweeping statements about what Islam is based on a few passages?
Suggesting that means that Islam is inherently antisemitic is.
Sure, but these passages didn't cause large-scale resentment of Jews until the creation of the state of Israel. Jews and Muslims lived generally peacefully alongside one another for centuries. While pogroms did happen, you never saw intergenerational efforts to exclude Jews from public life as existed throughout European history.
This changed because of Zionism. 20th century Arabs resented Israel for expelling their cousins from Palestine, humiliating them in wars, and receiving preferential treatment from the West. While early anti-Zionist rhetoric generally separated Jews from Israelis and secular leaders like Nasser made some efforts to protect and retain their dwindling Jewish populations. After the 1967 defeat by Israel, progressive secular ideals were discredited. Many Arabs fell back on the comfort of Islam. The rise of reactionary Islamic rhetoric gave Arab anti-Zionism a religious character that didn't really exist before, causing Arabs to pay much more attention to those phrases you mentioned.
Exactly.
shockthrill
Banned
You do realize that the La Convinvencia ("The Coexistence") is disputed and challenged among academic circles today. It's not anywhere near a widely agreed idea
You do realize that Moorish Spain was not the only Islamic state right? Moreover you do realize that consensus in history is something that pretty much never actually happens, but that doesn't mean we can't find lots of evidence for a thing and accept that it probably has some degree of truth. Moreover, Nirenburg, one of the major critics that you're talking about, absolutely does accept that the Islamic world was for large stretches of time significantly better in its treatment of Jewish people than the Christian world.
I am only comparing the relationship of Jews and Arab Muslims to the relationship of Jews and European Christians. The latter has been profoundly more antagonistic. But because Israel was founded in Palestine rather than in Poland, there were no geopolitical factors pushing for a resurgence of European antisemitism.
shockthrill
Banned
their is hardly any historical source or information that talks about the inner workings of shared jewish and muslim communities, so its a position that really has no standing
What? There are tons of Ottoman records on this subject. Where are you getting that idea from?
shockthrill
Banned
let's avoid talking about the 1066 Granada massacre then
Lmao do you know nothing about Mizrahi Jews? They coexisted with their Muslim and Christian neighbors in the Middle East before the state of Israel.
Why are we still talking about Spain???
Well since criticizing Israel's apartheid is apparently anti-Semitic... yes.
shockthrill
Banned
Let it be known that my objection is the idea that Muslims and Jews were living in "peaceful coexistence". While its true that Jews were treated better in these lands than Christian lands at the time, it was by no means a "equal existence" with muslims
Bernard Lewis, the world's leading western scholar of Islam has this to say
""The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam.""
Bernard Lewis, the world's leading western scholar of Islam has this to say
""The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam.""
Granada is my favorite part of the Ottoman Empire. I also like cherry picking examples to make my point.
I thought you were interested in honestly engaging on this subject, but this thread has certainly taken a strong turn for the worse.
I'd also recommend actually reading Nirenberg.
No one said things were perfectly fine. Obvious when you have different groups they will come into conflict. What people are saying is that things have gotten worse since Balfour. This is simply true.
Pretty much no field as broad as Islam has a "the world's leading western scholar". Lewis is often accused of having overly negative views of Islam for political reasons. Regardless, he is a historian of the Ottoman empire. What are you talking about here? Islamic Spain or the Ottomans, they aren't the same thing any more than 17th century Scotland and 21st century America are the same thing.
I think I lost the thread of the original topic... now I see it's basically a Jews vs Muslims discussion. Just out of curiosity, was the consensus in the end that yes there is antisemitism with the left but it's justified because Israel or no there isn't antisemitism, only rightful criticism and things like what Naz Shah said and the fact that holocaust organized trips are propaganda machines into creating oppressors (equivalent to ultra nationalist marches) are totally legitimate?
shockthrill
Banned
oh yes the great and peaceful Ottomans
forget about the execution of Jews in Baghdad in 1828 or the execution of Jews in Barfarush in 1867
or about the Jews of Libya that had to experience punitive taxation
lets talk about the Safed Plunder or the killing of Jews in Morocco under Ottoman rule
I've seen some crossover between criticizing Israeli government, Israeli people and Jews. Lots of it straying into hate and conspiracy, even on this forum. So yeah, it definitely can be a problem on the left. In fact, I was surprised to see so much of it here. From just openly spewing conspiracies to even posting blatantly racist cartoons (granted this one was years ago). The worst is watching a marginally related Israeli or Jewish topic eventually devolve into a dumpster fire of off topic Israeli/Palestinian posts when the original OP had nothing to do with conflict at all (ie, little girls love Wonder Woman thread). It's groan worthy, and happens all the time.
I don't think anyone is arguing Jews vs Muslim at all. One poster made some pretty flimsy arguments about how Islam is inherently antisemitic and people are calling him out on it.
There is no consensus. I think most reasonable people have accepted there is some antisemitism on the left, but that some are overly quick to condemn anyone critical of Israel as antisemitic. Part of problem are posts like yours which reduce the answer to having to be one extreme or another.
shockthrill
Banned
I never said it was inherent,whatever that term means, but the brutal fact is alot of Islamic doctrine is anti-semetic, calling that out is not islamophobic
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Can anyone explain to me how BSDM is anti-Semitic? It seems like a valiant thing to do to me, but there are many times Western politicians have called for it to be banned or used other forms of censure, because apparently it's anti-Semitic.
DongBeetle
Banned
There is a lot of heinous shit in biblical text that I would hope you don't enact. It's looking to me that you're implying that all conflict throughout history between the groups is because of Arabs
gutter_trash
Banned
why specifically target the boycott of one country but not demand the boycott of other countries?
it's the targetting one specific country while ignoring dozens others which raises eyebrows and makes it suspect
So you're saying acknowledging there is antisemitism in the left and calling people out on it is an extreme and part of the problem?
shockthrill
Banned
What I was trying to say is that the hatred of Jews by Arabs has its origins way before the establishment of Israel
No I'm not, and I think you're going out of you way to make what I said look bad.
I said there is some antisemitism on the left, but also that people use accusations of antisemitism as a weapon to try and shut down legitimate and not antisemitic criticisms of Israel.
The extreme I was talking about was that suggesting that either there is no antisemitism, or that everything that is accused of being antisemitic actually is.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
That would be done on an individual level wouldn't it? I mean, you don't go up to groups advocating the ban on selling arms to Saudi Arabia and ask them why they aren't advocating to ban selling arms to Israel or China or a myriad of other countries who use arms for malicious intent. There are different movements for different calls to action.
shockthrill
Banned
It's very hard to really separate it though,that has been the point I been trying to make
that second holocaust probably becomes all the more imminent if leftists such as myself stop buying sabra hummus and sodastream machines
chekhonte
Member
I'll forward this to the SCOTUS as evidence that Israel boycotts are thinly veiled hate speech for many people. There's a court case that they're reviewing that will decide if it's a felony to organize Israeli products boycotts.
And_Gignac
Member
Jewish people are amazing. Isarel apartheid-ish politics are not. I am fairly certain most leftists hold this position, despite OP´s experience.
excelsiorlef
Member
Neither
I can't tell if you're being serious here.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
The Left, at least the Millennial interpretation of it, operates on a paradigm of oppressor vs oppressed, distilled from its Marxist origins of class struggle. Jewish people, despite being a minority with a long history of atrocities against them, do not fit cleanly into the narrative of being oppressed in today's society due to their economic success.
Absolutely. The conflation of Jewish people with the policies of the state of Israel is disingenuous and harmful.
Are you a Nazi?
No, I'd actually say the modern left's interpretation of identity politics derives from an explicit rejection of Marxism, or at least the Anglo-American Marxism of the 50's and 60's, Christopher Hill, E.P. Thompson and the like.
I think there's more to it than that, and that its along the lines you were getting at in the first part of your post. A good understanding of identity politics requires identity to be operative, but people like having and dealing with some sort of abstract platonic identity.
So you're right part of this comes from oppressed vs oppressor framework, but there's a clear solution to it, looking at identity as operative, that no one wants because its hard and means both sides are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
Pretty much this.
Being against apartheid actions is common in the left as it should be, and should not be mistaken for anti-semitism
OfficerRaichu15
Member
I think this is one of the examples where both sides sadly have a few(or most in terms of te alt right) that have hatred for a group of people due to events or stereotypes.
I think Israel should be critiqued for some of its actions as they do not bring peace but more separation.
I think Israel should be critiqued for some of its actions as they do not bring peace but more separation.
Fulminator
Member
Pretty much
My tuppence worth...
The zionist movement in Israel loves to tar any and all criticism of the actions of the Israeli state as anti-semitism. The fact they're trying to outlaw the divestment movement just shows that. Israel meant to be treated as a special case and while everything they do is wrapped up in their apparent god given right to the land they take, they immediately use their religious ethnicity as a shield against any and all criticism. Fuck Israel basically. I'm as far from a nazi as you could find. I have no problem with anyone, I don't care where they come from or what they are, but some would cite me as anti-semitic merely for being quite disgusted at the actions of what is a rogue state (with friends in high places, like the US).
I honestly think real anti-semitism coming from the left is massively overblown as most folk who are genuinely left know the distinctions. It's not easy to criticise Israel when Israel and it's allies try so forcefully to make that impossible to do without flinging out the anti-semite slur.
The zionist movement in Israel loves to tar any and all criticism of the actions of the Israeli state as anti-semitism. The fact they're trying to outlaw the divestment movement just shows that. Israel meant to be treated as a special case and while everything they do is wrapped up in their apparent god given right to the land they take, they immediately use their religious ethnicity as a shield against any and all criticism. Fuck Israel basically. I'm as far from a nazi as you could find. I have no problem with anyone, I don't care where they come from or what they are, but some would cite me as anti-semitic merely for being quite disgusted at the actions of what is a rogue state (with friends in high places, like the US).
I honestly think real anti-semitism coming from the left is massively overblown as most folk who are genuinely left know the distinctions. It's not easy to criticise Israel when Israel and it's allies try so forcefully to make that impossible to do without flinging out the anti-semite slur.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Maybe stop stealing Palestinian land with settlements under the scope of a gun?
Fulminator
Member
Hamas doesn't want peace though, how do you negotiate for peace when one (or perhaps both) have no interest in it?