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[shockthrill]

There is a line in the Hamas charter

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors"

this line proves that the crisis in the middle east is not viewed as the Arabic World vs. a European colonizer framework

but a Jewish vs.Islam framework....I think western leftists view the conflict differently than the middle east

 

[Jag]

They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust.

Do you even understand how ignorant, anti-Semitic and horrible your statement is Junior? GAF may not be the best place for you.

They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

It is dangerous to be openly Jewish in Europe. The Israeli football team was just physically attacked by a mob in Poland. What's your point here?

 

[Mahonay]

I don't think the Left has a big issue with it, but I do believe that the state of Israel wants everyone to think there is. They send their students to holocaust memorials every year to create more Zionists out of the horror of the Holocaust. They even send them with bodyguards too, because apparently it's so dangerous to be Jewish in Europe.

But that isn't anything. Zionists will use any tactics, and take advantage of any sympathy to advance their cause. They're mostly atheists, and yet they'll justify the occupation with biblical quotes! They prey on the worst qualities of American conservatives by portraying themselves as a beautiful, white oasis in land of violent brown people.They ought to be criticized and called out at every turn, but there are still people like OP who buy into their well organized propaganda and will continue to do so until Palestine and its people cease to exist.

Whoaaaaaaa

I'm all for denouncing Israel for being a blatantly apartheid state, but WHAT THE FUCK

 

[Dr.Phibes]

Interestingly enough, the German political left is very pro-Israel.

 

[Cromat]

The amount of blatant anti-Semitism in this very thread tells it all.

 

[Fulminator]

There is a line in the Hamas charter

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors"

this line proves that the crisis in the middle east is not viewed as the Arabic World vs. a European colonizer framework

but a Jewish vs.Islam framework....I think western leftists view the conflict differently than the middle east

They do

The idea of a Jewish state to them is insufferable, they don't care about the west they care about eliminating the Jew. I was there, in Israel, recently and learned much more about the inner workings of this conflict that I ever could reading about it online, especially from people viewing and commenting and writing about it halfway around the world. I am a young Jewish American, and while I do not agree with all of Israel policies, many of them are in place because so many of the countries and people around them want to eradicate the state simply because it is a Jewish state. now I may have been fed some pro israel propaganda for sure, but the trip completely changed my views on zionism and the like.

Idk, I will not support everything they do, but it is far more complex than you could imagine.

 

[shockthrill]

They do

The idea of a Jewish state to them is insufferable, they don't care about the west they care about eliminating the Jew. I was there, in Israel, recently and learned much more about the inner workings of this conflict that I ever could reading about it online, especially from people viewing and commenting and writing about it halfway around the world. I am a young Jewish American, and while I do not agree with all of Israel policies, many of them are in place because so many of the countries and people around them want to eradicate the state simply because it is a Jewish state. now I may have been fed some pro israel propaganda for sure, but the trip completely changed my views on zionism and the like.

Idk, I will not support everything they do, but it is far more complex than you could imagine.

That's why I think their is a fundamental difference in how the conflict is viewed

Western leftists view it as a white european colonial project vs. the arabic world

in the islamic world, it's viewed as a jewish vs. muslim battle

 

[Dopus]

There is a line in the Hamas charter

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors"

this line proves that the crisis in the middle east is not viewed as the Arabic World vs. a European colonizer framework

but a Jewish vs.Islam framework....I think western leftists view the conflict differently than the middle east

You can't use the 1988 charter as a framework for your argument because it is no longer viewed as policy from Hamas. You also need to look at it in the context of the First Intifada. Subsequent revisions and comments on it along with comments from Khaled Meshaal will tell you that. It's an organisation born out of despair that was helped by Israel itself.

 

[shockthrill]

You can't use the 1988 charter as a framework for your argument because it is no longer viewed as policy from Hamas. You also need to look at it in the context of the First Intifada. Subsequent revisions and comments on it along with comments from Khaled Meshaal will tell you that. It's an organisation born out of despair that was helped by Israel itself.

they still use the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a foundation text, so now Hamas has not had a "change of heart"


and regardless of the change in their charter, which I can see eliminates much of the "eliminate the jews" rhetoric,is simply a diplomatic tactic, it doesn't change how they actually feel about Jewish people or what they teach their children etc.

 

[mlclmtckr]

What that guy said about holocaust museums is fucked up and wrong

Birthright on the other hand is a shameless right wing indoctrination program

 

[Father_Brain]

What that guy said about holocaust museums is fucked up and wrong

Birthright on the other hand is a shameless right wing indoctrination program

It's not really wrong when that's literally the point of programs like March of the Living.

 

[shockthrill]

It's not really wrong when that's literally the point of programs like March of the Living.

no it's an anti-semetic statement

 

[Father_Brain]

no it's an anti-semetic statement

Hi, non-Zionist Jew here. It's not. Holocaust memorials obviously serve a crucial purpose, but they absolutely are exploited by Zionist organizations like MotL to advance a narrative that Jews are still under real, existential threat, and that Israel is all that stands between the Jewish people and a second Holocaust. Which is bullshit, because while anti-Semitism is very much real and must be combated, there is no such threat in 2017. No one who might possess the intent has the capability to kill millions of Jews, no one with the capability has the intent, and no one with the intent is in any danger of acquiring the capability.

 

[DongBeetle]

Never lived in of even been to Israel so I admit to not seeing it from the perspective of someone who does or has but it's not unreasonable for American liberals to be deeply unsettled by what goes on

That being said, the left has an overwhelming tendency to tie Jews with Israel as one and the same. All minorities should band together through these trying times

 

[shockthrill]

Hi, non-Zionist Jew here. It's not. Holocaust memorials obviously serve a crucial purpose, but they absolutely are exploited by Zionist organizations like MotL to advance a narrative that Jews are still under real, existential threat, and that Israel is all that stands between the Jewish people and a second Holocaust. Which is bullshit, because while anti-Semitism is very much real and must be combated, there is no such threat in 2017. No one who might possess the intent has the capability to kill millions of Jews, no one with the capability has the intent, and no one with the intent is in any danger of acquiring the capability.

the Arabic World is not against Israel because it is a "western colonial project" it is against Israel because of the fact that it's a Jewish State.... Hamas and other groups want the total elimination of Israel, that's how its always been.

 

[gutter_trash]

Interestingly enough, the German political left is very pro-Israel.

there is a big difference between vanilla establishment parties like the SPD who are very level headed compared to Fringe parties who have no chance of forming government,
it's in the smaller fringer parties where the nutters are at.

 

[Kazaam]

Hi, non-Zionist Jew here. It's not. Holocaust memorials obviously serve a crucial purpose, but they absolutely are exploited by Zionist organizations like MotL to advance a narrative that Jews are still under real, existential threat, and that Israel is all that stands between the Jewish people and a second Holocaust. Which is bullshit, because while anti-Semitism is very much real and must be combated, there is no such threat in 2017. No one who might possess the intent has the capability to kill millions of Jews, no one with the capability has the intent, and no one with the intent is in any danger of acquiring the capability.

Let me guess... you live in the US? I also assume you've been to programs like this?

 

[shockthrill]

Let me guess... you live in the US? I also assume you've been to programs like this?

take straight from wikipedia

"The March of the Living is mainly aimed at Jewish high school students and its goals are both universal (fighting indifference, racism and injustice) and particular (opposing anti-semitism, and strengthening their sense of Jewish identity).[3]

A key element of the program is the participation of Holocaust survivors who share the memory of their war-time experiences with the students, while they are still well enough to participate in this challenging two week trip of the young.

Though the vast majority of participants in the March of the Living are Jewish high school students from different countries including Israel, there are many non-Jewish groups in attendance, along with adult groups such as the Polish Friends of Israel, Japan's Bridges for Peace and others."

nothing about creating future zionists,that claim is simply anti-semetic propaganda

 

[Dopus]

the Arabic World is not against Israel because it is a "western colonial project" it is against Israel because of the fact that it's a Jewish State.... Hamas and other groups want the total elimination of Israel, that's how its always been.

They've changed their stance and are willing to recognize the 1967 borders. It's an organisation that we can understand in a historical sense and why Israel allowed it to flourish. All this is to say that it has nothing to do with the original topic on hand.

With the exception of BDS, most of the prominent leftist thinkers agree with Finkelstein and Chomsky's stance on matters relating to Israel and Palestine. And this is reflected in leftist communities.

 

[shockthrill]

They've changed their stance and are willing to recognize the 1967 borders. It's an organisation that we can understand in a historical sense and why Israel allowed it to flourish. All this is to say that it has nothing to do with the original topic on hand.

With the exception of BDS, most of the prominent leftist thinkers agree with Finkelstein and Chomsky's stance on matters relating to Israel and Palestine. And this is reflected in leftist communities.

you are trying to claim Hamas is something more than it's not....if you read Hamas new charter, it is simply window dressing and language manipulation

it is still an anti-jewish orginization

 

[DongBeetle]

Now I am a huge critic of the Israel government and Zionism of today, but often many on the left will apply Zionism to conspiracy theories that often match old age anti-semitism which is why I have distanced my self from many other critics that use that type of language, cause I often thing it's wrong to do so

Are you actually a huge critic my friend? I'm not seeing it too well in this thread.

 

[Dopus]

you are trying to claim Hamas is something more than it's not....if you read Hamas new charter, it is simply window dressing and language manipulation

it is still an anti-jewish orginization

And Israel is an anti-Palestinian state that has zero desire to come to a solution.

 

[shockthrill]

Are you actually a huge critic my friend? I'm not seeing it too well in this thread.

yes I am, I have criticized many times the Israeli government and the settlements, not in this thread in particular but in the past

but I am not going to pretend that Hamas is actually a "misunderstood" orginization, or that anti-semitism doesn't fuel the Israel-Palestinian conflict, or that the left doesn't conflate anti-israel and anti-jewish rhetoric all the time

 

[Dr.Phibes]

there is a big difference between vanilla establishment parties like the SPD who are very level headed compared to Fringe parties who have no chance of forming government,
it's in the smaller fringer parties where the nutters are at.

Lol, the SPD stopped being left a long time ago. I'm talking about DIE LINKE.
Parties like the MLPD that support the ideologies of genocidal maniacs have far bigger issues.

 

[Father_Brain]

The notion that it's anti-Semitic to call MotL a Zionist organization is hilarious. Read their website, dude.

Also, love the Israel Apologist Logic that Hamas' supposed intent to annihilate the Jewish state (which is a rightly contested assertion, but I'll go with it for the sake of argument) makes them an existential threat to Israel regardless of their actual offensive capabilities. I guess if their charter threatened to summon Cthulhu or acquire superpowers, Israel would also have to take it seriously.

 

[Dopus]

yes I am, I have criticized many times the Israeli government and the settlements, not in this thread in particular but in the past

but I am not going to pretend that Hamas is actually a "misunderstood" orginization, or that anti-semitism doesn't fuel the Israel-Palestinian conflict, or that the left doesn't conflate anti-israel and anti-jewish rhetoric all the time

Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but that organisation is the direct result and consequence of the policies the state of Israel has put forward and practiced. Anti-semitism does fuel the conflict, but that is going to happen when that state is apartheid. That doesn't provide any justification for it, but it provides context and understanding.

If leftist organisations today feel that anti-semitism is okay and acceptable, then they are misguided and deluded.

 

[shockthrill]

The notion that it's anti-Semitic to call MotL a Zionist organization is hilarious. Read their website, dude.

Also, love the Israel Apologist Logic that Hamas' supposed intent to annihilate the Jewish state (which is a rightly contested assertion, but I'll go with it for the sake of argument) makes them an existential threat to Israel regardless of their actual offensive capabilities. I guess if their charter threatened to summon Cthulhu or acquire superpowers, Israel would also have to take it seriously.

it is by no means a "contested" debate seeing as it was in their charter that Islam will destroy Israel like it did its precursors

even with the so-called revision which is nothing but window dressing and a diplomatic tactic

 

[gutter_trash]

back to OP's original question:
the best way to combat Far-Left antisemtism is with vanilla establishment Left wing parties and Center-Left parties.

staying away from the fringes and rejecting "conspiracy theories"

 

[wordballoons]

Sorry, on the left I see much more legitimate criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians than wacky conspiracy theories or whatever. Being an apartheid state has alienated Israel from a lot of younger progressive Americans. An ethno/theocratic state is just not something that we are ok with.

I'm sure that there's real antisemitism on the left but I don't think it's common. And until the state of Israel cleans its act up it will find less and less support in the American left.

this right here

 

[shockthrill]

Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but that organisation is the direct result and consequence of the policies the state of Israel has put forward and practiced. Anti-semitism does fuel the conflict, but that is going to happen when that state is apartheid. That doesn't provide any justification for it, but it provides context and understanding.

If leftist organisations today feel that anti-semitism is okay and acceptable, then they are misguided and deluded.

I agree that their is a context surrounding the creation of Hamas

but what i disagree with is saying Hamas is not "anti-jewish" but simply "Anti-Israel" when they straight up are holocaust deniers

there was a dispute in 2009 about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas–UNRWA_Holocaust_dispute

 

[Acerac]

Don't get me wrong

Right Wing Anti-semitism is a much bigger threat, and much more disgusting and deadly


but at least we can have a conversation on our side in what we have to do better

Any criticism of the Israeli government's actions is seen as anti-semitism by a certain subset of the population. What we need to do better is learn to ignore these bullshit cries that are attempting to distract from legitimate issues.

 

[fushi]

but I am not going to pretend ... that the left doesn't conflate anti-israel and anti-jewish rhetoric all the time

I am sorry, but you are not helping your case at all by making such outlandish claims with nary a source or citation.

 

[DongBeetle]

Any criticism of the Israeli government's actions is seen as anti-semitism by a certain subset of the population.

Hell, I'm seeing it a lot in this thread. We are tying race and nation together on both sides

 

[Kisaya]

European Zionists have done an excellent job turning Arabs against Jews and white-washing what is now the state of Israel. I'm not going to deny there isn't an hatred of Jewish people in the Arab world (having witnessed it in Yemen as well as Arab enclaves in America), but we should recognize why Arabs see Jews as their enemy. You say that the Arab world has the intent to eliminate Jews, but do you not see that elimination and mistreatment of Arabs (which include Mizrahi Jews) along with the POC living in Israel that they refuse to protect?

 

[shockthrill]

I am sorry, but you are not helping your case at all by making such outlandish claims with nary a source or citation.

you can read this whole thread my friend, there are many instances of using zionist in a conspiratory manner, about how Israel funds trips to Holocaust memorials to create "future zionists" its all nonsense and anti-semetic

 

[Father_Brain]

It is absolutely anti-Semitic to negatively conflate Israel and Judaism, and this should be called out and condemned whenever it happens.

It would also be easier to do this if Israel and its apologists hadn't spent decades engaging in the exact same conflation from the opposite ideological direction. If you keep hammering in for many years the idea that Jewish identity is inextricably tied to support for Israel, you shouldn't be so shocked when people who don't like Israel take you at your word.

This is not to say that anti-Semitism is solely Israel's fault, just that Israel and its apologists have very definitely exacerbated it.

 

[shockthrill]

European Zionists have done an excellent job turning Arabs against Jews and white-washing what is now the state of Israel. I'm not going to deny there isn't an hatred of Jewish people in the Arab world (having witnessed it in Yemen as well as Arab enclaves in America), but we should recognize why Arabs see Jews as their enemy. You say that the Arab world has the intent to eliminate Jews, but do you not see that elimination and mistreatment of Arabs (which include Mizrahi Jews) along with the POC living in Israel that they refuse to protect?

this statement here makes no sense.

If the opposition against Israel was simply about Israel, then there would be no reason why many Arabs would hate Jews, such a conflation wouldn't be necessary

 

[gutter_trash]

European Zionists have done an excellent job turning Arabs against Jews and white-washing what is now the state of Israel. I'm not going to deny there isn't an hatred of Jewish people in the Arab world (having witnessed it in Yemen as well as Arab enclaves in America), but we should recognize why Arabs see Jews as their enemy. You say that the Arab world has the intent to eliminate Jews, but do you not see that elimination and mistreatment of Arabs (which include Mizrahi Jews) along with the POC living in Israel that they refuse to protect?

see when I meantionned Conspriacy Theories, we got one

 

[chekhonte]

This thread is giving me flashbacks to gamergate when people would vehemently deny it being a facade for acceptable public sexism.

 

[Kazaam]

I've seen a lot of use of the word "zionist"/"zionism" here. What does it mean for people in this thread?

I also agree that it's bullshit to attribute any criticism/boycott/etc. of Israel's policies to antisemitism. But a lot of people can't differentiate between Israel the country, Israel the government, Israelis and Jews... which I think it's something that the left fails to do as well in it's passionate campaign against Israel's policies (if people want examples.. I gave one on the previous page).

European Zionists have done an excellent job turning Arabs against Jews and white-washing what is now the state of Israel. I'm not going to deny there isn't an hatred of Jewish people in the Arab world (having witnessed it in Yemen as well as Arab enclaves in America), but we should recognize why Arabs see Jews as their enemy. You say that the Arab world has the intent to eliminate Jews, but do you not see that elimination and mistreatment of Arabs (which include Mizrahi Jews) along with the POC living in Israel that they refuse to protect?

Now if you would read a sentence like "I'm not going to deny there isn't a hatred of muslims in US/EU, but we should recognize why americans and europeans see muslims as their enemy." would you find that statement islamophobic?

 

[Kisaya]

this statement here makes no sense.

If the opposition against Israel was simply about Israel, then there would be no reason why many Arabs would hate Jews, such a conflation wouldn't be necessary

Arabs hating Jewish people because of their spirituality makes less sense than hating Jewish people because they are projecting the violence of Arabs by Israel (who have tied the Jewish identity to their founding). It's not right, but that's what's happening.

see when I meantionned Conspriacy Theories, we got one

Cool comeback! Trust me, I've heard actual anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that deserve your call outs than my account as an Arab who is seeing the elimination and appropriation of my culture by European colonists.

 

[shockthrill]

Arabs hating Jewish people because of their spirituality makes less sense than hating Jewish people because they are projecting the violence of Arabs by Israel (who have tied the Jewish identity to their founding). It's not right, but that's what's happening.



Cool comeback! Trust me, I've heard actual Semitic conspiracy theories that deserve your call outs than my account as an Arab who is seeing the elimination and appropriation of my culture by European colonists.

but not all Jews are zionists, so again this tells me that the hatred is beyond Israel

 

[Kisaya]

but not all Jews are zionists, so again this tells me that the hatred is beyond Israel

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I absolutely recognize that. The majority of the Arab world is definitely anti-Semitic, and it's wrong, but you have to not be blind to the fact that Zionists are the cause of it.

 

[shockthrill]

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I absolutely recognize that. The majority of the Arab world is definitely anti-Semitic, and it's wrong, but you have to not be blind to the fact that Zionists are the cause of it.

it's not the main cause

 

[gutter_trash]

Arabs hating Jewish people because of their spirituality makes less sense than hating Jewish people because they are projecting the violence of Arabs by Israel (who have tied the Jewish identity to their founding). It's not right, but that's what's happening.



Cool comeback! Trust me, I've heard actual anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that deserve your call outs than my account as an Arab who is seeing the elimination and appropriation of my culture by European colonists.

the argument can be turned around using the Ottoman Empire and the ousting of Jews and Christians overtime out of the Middle-East.

see, you go there about Europeans but the truth is that the other side of the Sea did the same throughout history.

you can on with the tuf-of-war if "Europeans are more bad" on and on. But historically, the Ottoman spread its reach into Europe, Western Asia, North Africa and Arabia

 

[Goon]

There is a line in the Hamas charter

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors"

this line proves that the crisis in the middle east is not viewed as the Arabic World vs. a European colonizer framework

but a Jewish vs.Islam framework....I think western leftists view the conflict differently than the middle east

This line doesn't prove shit. How are you seriously equating Hamas's views to the views of people in the middle east.

the argument can be turned around using the Ottoman Empire and the ousting of Jews and Christians overtime out of the Middle-East.

see, you go there about Europeans but the truth is that the other side of the Sea did the same throughout history.

you can on with the tuf-of-war if "Europeans are more bad" on and on. But historically, the Ottoman spread its reach into Europe, Western Asia, North Africa and Arabia

What does the Ottoman Empire have to do with anything? They were a colonist force in the middle east and the poster you replied to is an arab

 

[Cocaloch]

see when I meantionned Conspriacy Theories, we got one

Is this a conspiracy? Hardline Zionists have a lot to gain by making the situation appear as unsolvable as possible. It's fairly similar to part of the thesis of Avi Shlaim's Iron Wall.

When people mentioned handwaving away all criticisms with claims of antisemitism, we got one.

This thread is giving me flashbacks to gamergate when people would vehemently deny it being a facade for acceptable public sexism.

Yes criticizing Israel and Gamergate are the same thing. You did it. No single person in the world actually cares about the many very well documented things that Israel is doing and has done.

Now if you would read a sentence like "I'm not going to deny there isn't a hatred of muslims in US/EU, but we should recognize why americans and europeans see muslims as their enemy." would you find that statement islamophobic?

It wouldn't be because that poster wasn't making a value claim. In fact in order to understand anti-islamic sentiments in the west we have to understand the place of Islamophobia in taking the isolated actions of individuals and arguing that they are typical of an entire religion.

It's important to understand things.

 

[Kisaya]

Now if you would read a sentence like "I'm not going to deny there isn't a hatred of muslims in US/EU, but we should recognize why americans and europeans see muslims as their enemy." would you find that statement islamophobic?

It is Islamophobic. It's also anti-Semitic for Arabs for hate Jews because of Zionism (because they're assuming all Jewish people are Zionists). I wasn't denying that, I was just explaining why.

 

[shockthrill]

This line doesn't prove shit. How are you seriously equating Hamas's views to the views of people in the middle east.



What does the Ottoman Empire have to do with anything? They were a colonist force in the middle east and the poster you replied to is an arab

do you think Hamas is widely rejected in the Islamic world? countries like Jordan and Lebanon are highly favorable to Hamas

 

[Kickz]

Sorry, on the left I see much more legitimate criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians than wacky conspiracy theories or whatever. Being an apartheid state has alienated Israel from a lot of younger progressive Americans. An ethno/theocratic state is just not something that we are ok with.

I'm sure that there's real antisemitism on the left but I don't think it's common. And until the state of Israel cleans its act up it will find less and less support in the American left.

Bingo