Support NeoGAF

[zeldablue]

Which is why I didn't quote you


She got captured because she revealed herself to be Zelda. She still was Zelda during the 7 years she evaded Ganondorf, she just hid it.

The point is that lots of people oversimplify her character to someone who does nothing but get kidnapped, when it's simply not true.
She has been a strong character in most Zeldas since OoT and even fights alongside Link in some final battles, yes she always ends up in trouble, but that doesn't negate what she does before or after that.
Not that it's necessary for her to get kidnapped or in trouble, I wouldn't mind if she didn't of course, they probably do it for tradition's sake and because rescuing a princess helps with the fairy tale vibe.

I don't care if Zelda gets kidnapped or not.

I care if:
1. She is a part of the gameplay or an impactful supportive character.
2. She doesn't take the focus off of Link and his immediate environment.

If Zelda isn't 1...then she better be 2. I think she screwed up SS completely. I could really care less about a character who spends a few minutes in the actual gameplay section of the game. I really don't care about characters who aren't a real part of the game. She was nothing but a moving goalpost. She only exists during cutscenes.

I'm talking about story to gameplay integration. I hate SS's plot progression. There was nothing of worth aside from following Zelda around an obstacle course.

If Zelda wants to get kidnapped and spend 98% of the gameplay portion of the game completely hidden...then don't make her important to the plot. Make someone else important instead. They could've fleshed out Ghirahim and Fi, characters who are actually interactive, but they decided to blow it.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I am fully willing to admit I just remember SS wrong, but I thought it was that chasing after Zelda was meant to be the wrong thing. You discover she hasn't been taken, she's doing things that need to be done, and all Link has really accomplished in this process was slowing down her pursuers and in some cases leading them directly to her.

Like, the point was "She's not an object to be chased after, she has agency."

Then it turns out Link is also important in the end, because otherwise that would be kind of shitty. But chasing after her is a goal they don't necessarily laud in that game.

No, you're right, and it was a big improvement.

The only significant problem I have with Zelda in SS is that at the end, she, once again, needs to be rescued. It wouldn't even be a problem if it didn't happen every single time she's in a game. You can have her need rescue sometimes if you want, just if you do it every single time you have the opportunity, I'm going to give you a little side-eye because it starts to suggest that you're not entirely willing to commit to that agency. Or that you can't think of/can't be bothered to think of a more creative motivation. :/

tl;dr:
Single instance: Whatever, go for it
Unbroken patten: Write better.

 

[SweetDonuts]

Not to mention that she definitely doesn't have any "agency" since her entire role in this game is to become a person who is not herself and fulfill events that were set in stone thousands of years ago.

No it's not. SS Zelda is Hylia reborn mortal, she went around in SS awakening memories of her past life.

 

[zeldablue]

Here's the plot of SS:

- Link and Zelda are childhood friends. Zelda is implied to have a crush on Link.
- Zelda gets sucked down to the surface. Link decides to go down to the surface to find her.
- An old lady tells Link that Zelda went to the temple in the woods. Link goes into the woods to find her.
- Link arrives at the temple in the woods and finds out that Zelda somehow magically teleported out of there to head to another temple at the mountain. Link goes to the mountain to find her.
- Link arrives at the temple at the mountain and finds Zelda with Impa. Zelda then magically teleports out of there to head to the Temple of Time in the desert. Link goes to the desert to find her.
- Zelda enters the Gate of Time, and tells Link to find the other Gate of Time to come after her.
- Link reforges the Master Sword so he can open the other Gate of Time so he can go to the past to find Zelda.
- Link goes to the past to find Zelda, but Zelda says that she has to go to sleep to keep Demise sealed. Link goes to the present to get the Triforce to kill Demise so Zelda no longer has to keep him sealed.
- Link gets the Triforce and kills Demise, allowing Zelda to wake up. Then Ghirahim kidnaps Zelda and takes her to the past again. Link follows Ghirahim into the past to save her.
- In the end of the game, Link has decided to live with Zelda on the surface to help her protect the Triforce.
- That this is the first game in the series only drives home that the Link-Zelda reincarnation cycle is really just the continuation of a long chain of events involving Link having to save Zelda.

Literally everything you do from a broad plot perspective is directly related to going after/awakening/saving/helping Zelda in some capacity. And at literally every moment in the story, you are encouraged (by her or by Fi) to keep following her.

Not to mention that she definitely doesn't have any "agency" since her entire role in this game is to become a person who is not herself and fulfill events that were set in stone thousands of years ago.

Thank you. It was annoying doing a whole bunch of stupid running around for Zelda. Felt like I was running in place for 35 hours straight.

As for Zelda herself...well, it's kind of following a Buddhist's view of women. Which isn't exactly...great. Zelda starts off strong as a mother type character, protecting and babying Link. She is a Mother Goddess type character. Then halfway through Link has to detach himself from his love for her. Then Zelda becomes a pretty useless lump of flesh and Link becomes a real man to rescue her. The whole idea isn't all that great for Zelda, her existence if there to grow an enlightened hero out of a "baby" who needed to stop being coddled. Demise talks about how the Hylians acted like babies to their goddess and Link has moved past that goddess and the super weak, useless mortal she was reborn as. As Link elevates, Zelda turds out. I know feminists find some parts of Buddhism to be really misogynistic...and well...I kind of agree. Zelda was kind of bad.

I'm just really not a fan of this game. It's story. The pacing. Everything. @___@

Spoiler

I will say, Link's Awakening had a similar set up with Link and Marin...trying to detach from the familiar/mother. But it was able to do that without degrading the heck out of Marin. I actually really really like Marin.

 

[Not]

What if Zelda isn't in this game

 

[zeldablue]

What if Zelda isn't in this game

I'm okay with that. She's been getting on my nerves.

 

[Cyd0nia]

What if Zelda isn't in this game

What if she's a myth, or some kind of legend?

 

[MoogleWizard]

Zelda is my favorite franchise and after SS launched, the ridiculously overblown hate and negativity for the game turned me off Zelda threads here on GAF and I basically avoided them since. Seems like three years later the same thing is happening again, nothing has changed. :/

 

[Dimmle]

I definitely did not sense misogyny in Skyward Sword but you guys seem to have dissected the events more than I have.

Although, how does this compare with OoT, in which you are also running around for Zelda?

 

[Not]

Here's what I want:

Fade in, bad dream, bad dream nightmare a go-go. Then:

Young hero.

Awaken.

Are you a boy?

Or a girl?

What is your name?

Etc.

And then have a plot where you don't have to save someone of the opposite sex.

 

[SweetDonuts]

Thank you. It was annoying doing a whole bunch of stupid running around for Zelda. Felt like I was running in place for 35 hours straight.

As for Zelda herself...well, it's kind of following a Buddhist's view of women. Which isn't exactly...great. Zelda starts off strong as a mother type character, protecting and babying Link. She is a Mother Goddess type character. Then halfway through Link has to detach himself from his love for her. Then Zelda becomes a pretty useless lump of flesh and Link becomes a real man to rescue her. The whole idea isn't all that great for Zelda, her existence if there to grow an enlightened hero out of a "baby" who needed to be coddled. Demise talks about how the Hylians acted like babies to their goddess and Link has moved past that goddess and the super weak, useless mortal she was reborn as. As Link elevates, Zelda turds out. I know feminists find some parts of Buddhism to be really misogynistic...and well...I kind of agree. Zelda was kind of bad.

I'm just really not a fan of this game. It's story. The pacing. Everything. @___@

This just doesn't happen at all.
I'm not even sure why you're bringing Buddishm and misogyny into the SS plot..

 

[Dimmle]

This just doesn't happen at all.
I'm not even sure why you're bringing Buddishm and misogyny into the SS plot..

There are actually quite a few Buddhist themes and aesthetics in SS (mostly in Ancient Cistern), but that reading goes a bit deep, Ib think.

 

[Heroman]

Here's what I want:

Fade in, bad dream, bad dream nightmare a go-go. Then:

Young hero.

Awaken.

Are you a boy?

Or a girl?

What is your name?

Etc.

And then have a plot where you don't have to save someone of the opposite sex.

Dude, the dream is dead. There wont be a gender select.
[

 

[zeldablue]

I definitely did not sense misogyny in Skyward Sword but you guys seem to have dissected the events more than I have.

Although, how does this compare with OoT, in which you are also running around for Zelda?

It's actually really interesting to see where the premise of Hylia cames from. But yeah, I guess it is a tiny bit hateful towards women.

OoT revolves more around Link and his aging more so than it does Zelda/Sheik. That's why I like OoT a lot more. You don't learn that Zelda is alive/active until after the Water Temple. I had actually forgotten about her which made her reentry a big shocker. Zelda/Sheik was a big philosophical character...which I also liked. She was poetic and tried to teach Link a thing or two about the ever changing, fleeting world. Almost like a spiritual helper. Zelda was awesome in OoT.

 

[BY2K]

I just want a good Zelda game.

And I've never been disappointed so far. (Maybe a little by the DS games...) So... no fear.

 

[MoogleWizard]

Here's what I want:

Fade in, bad dream, bad dream nightmare a go-go. Then:

Young hero.

Awaken.

Are you a boy?

Or a girl?

What is your name?

Etc.

And then have a plot where you don't have to save someone of the opposite sex.

Oh great, the "Link isn't a character" crap again. Yes, it's really time to go. Ugh, Zelda threads...

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Should just go play dragon age or one of those games where you can create characters instead.

 

[pinkurocket]

Oh great, the "Link isn't a character" crap again. Yes, it's really time to go. Ugh, Zelda threads...

Aaaaahahaha, god I love Wind Waker Link's expressions. I hope this new Link will have as much charm as him.

 

[Kansoku]

Are you a boy?


Or a girl?

So Professor Oak goes to Hyrule?

Will it ask to name your rival as well? =P

Spoiler

(Obviously naming him assface)

 

[zeldablue]

Spirit Tracks asks if you're a boy or girl. (Fortune teller)

I got really confused because Link is a boy but I'm a girl. So I just kind of derp'd out of the discussion.

This just doesn't happen at all.
I'm not even sure why you're bringing Buddishm and misogyny into the SS plot..

Dude...she had her soul sucked out. :S And there's nothing wrong with a little bit of "misogyny."

 

[Dimmle]

It's actually really interesting to see where the premise of Hylia cames from. But yeah, I guess it is a tiny bit hateful towards women.

OoT revolves more around Link and his aging more so than it does Zelda/Sheik. That's why I like OoT a lot more. You don't learn that Zelda is alive/active until after the Water Temple. I had actually forgotten about her which made her reentry a big shocker. Zelda/Sheik was a big philosophical character...which I also liked. She was poetic and tried to teach Link a thing or two about the ever changing, fleeting world.

I'd like to know what specific aspects of Buddhism you are drawing on with your argument. If anything, the Hylia-Demise dichotomy is closer to Tao concepts of yin and yang.

 

[Lunar15]

If we're going to relate elements of SS to mysogeny... I'd go as far to say that just about every game in the series is misogynistic save for like, Majora's Mask.

I don't disagree, and I'm certainly for newer and fresher plot lines in the future, but it seems kind of weird to all of a sudden pick out SS as the one that's pretty rough about it. I mean, in ALTTP you not only rescue Zelda, but six other maidens. While I'm never opposed to openly discussing the topic of mysogeny in games, I feel like there's a weird personal vendetta in this case that extends beyond the mere discussion. A lot of stuff that isn't really there.

But hey, I can never really argue with someone about how they perceived something tonally. If it didn't click, it didn't click. Honestly, SS's story is probably it's weakest point. The whole thing with them going back in time at the very end makes literally zero sense. I could nitpick it all day as well. I think I'm so used to people demolishing SS for other, more nonsensical reasons, that I just get defensive about all aspects of it.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I'd like to know what specific aspects of Buddhism you are drawing on with your argument. If anything, the Hylia-Demise dichotomy is closer to Tao concepts of yin and yang.

This would have fixed my problems with Demise. If they had implied he was an emergent persona of chaos or a natural opposing power to Hylia, I would have happily taken it. Instead he's just kind of there.

 

[BY2K]

The mysogeny talk in Zelda is just as silly as the sexism talk in Captain Toad.

So stop it.

 

[Dimmle]

This would have fixed my problems with Demise. If they had implied he was an emergent persona of chaos or a natural opposing power to Hylia, I would have happily taken it. Instead he's just kind of there.

I was under the impression that that's exactly what he is.

 

[zeldablue]

If we're going to relate elements of SS to mysogeny... I'd go as far to say that just about every game in the series is misogynistic save for like, Majora's Mask.

I don't disagree, and I'm certainly for newer and fresher plot lines in the future, but it seems kind of weird to all of a sudden pick out SS as the one that's pretty rough about it. I mean, in ALTTP you not only rescue Zelda, but six other maidens. While I'm never opposed to openly discussing the topic of mysogeny in games, I feel like there's a weird personal vendetta in this case that extends beyond the mere discussion. A lot of stuff that isn't really there.

But hey, I can never really argue with someone about how they perceived something tonally. If it didn't click, it didn't click. Honestly, SS's story is probably it's weakest point. The whole thing with them going back in time at the very end makes literally zero sense. I could nitpick it all day as well. I think I'm so used to people demolishing SS for other, more nonsensical reasons, that I just get defensive about all aspects of it.

Zelda's my favorite series. I think it's fair to say I don't care about "misogyny."

But when people act like SS Zelda was really great in terms of agency or whatever, I can't help but think...Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Not really.

I'm fine with Zelda getting kidnapped, I'm not okay with that taking over Link's life/adventure/purpose.

EDIT: The only thing I care about is Link and the player. I want the world Link interacts with to take center stage. Not Zelda...if possible.

 

[Lunar15]

The mysogeny talk in Zelda is just as silly as the sexism talk in Captain Toad.

So stop it.

It's not outrageous, I mean, let's be honest: Zelda has always been a largely male focused series. It's a tale of growth about a boy. Usually, saving a woman is the end-goal.

Like most things like this, I personally don't think that the individual existence is the problem, it's that it's so pervasive. There are just too many things like this, and that's what makes it seem oppressive.

But I'm not an expert on this, nor can I really speak out of experience. I want newer and fresher storylines, and Zelda's not a bad place to ask that from.

Zelda's my favorite series. I think it's fair to say I don't care about "misogyny."

But when people act like SS Zelda was really great in terms of agency or whatever, I can't help but think...Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Not really.

I'm fine with Zelda getting kidnapped, I'm not okay with that taking over Link's life/adventure/purpose.

I can understand this viewpoint. You're right in that she doesn't really have much agency. Then again, ST Zelda doesn't have much agency either, but she often feels like she's calling the shots. She'll always be my favorite Zelda.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

The mysogeny talk in Zelda is just as silly as the sexism talk in Captain Toad.

So stop it.

I agree that calling it "misogynistic" seems too far. Problematic yes, but not so far as misogyny.

I was under the impression that that's exactly what he is.

This is what I want to assume, but I don't remember the game actually implying it anywhere.

 

[The Boat]

I don't care if Zelda gets kidnapped or not.

I care if:
1. She is a part of the gameplay or an impactful supportive character.
2. She doesn't take the focus off of Link and his immediate environment.

If Zelda isn't 1...then she better be 2. I think she screwed up SS completely. I could really care less about a character who spends a few minutes in the actual gameplay section of the game. I really don't care about characters who aren't a real part of the game. She was nothing but a moving goalpost. She only exists during cutscenes.

I'm talking about story to gameplay integration. I hate SS's plot progression. There was nothing of worth aside from following Zelda around an obstacle course.

If Zelda wants to get kidnapped and spend 98% of the gameplay portion of the game completely hidden...then don't make her important to the plot. Make someone else important instead. They could've fleshed out Ghirahim and Fi, characters who are actually interactive, but they decided to blow it.

Zelda in SS has a tremendous impact on the story, she is having her own quest parallel to Link's (as shown in the credits video). She's a motivation for our quest in the beginning and end, but everywhere inbetween, she is doing her own thing and is just as important, if not more, than Link.

The problem here, and this has been clear throughout the whole thread, is that you clearly have very specific ideas about what Zelda (the games and the character) should be like and the games need to exactly match your rather arbitrary wishes otherwise you don't like them.
To each one its own of course, and this isn't exactly something only you do, in fact it's very common with the Zelda fan base, but I find that rather narrow minded, no offense intended. I would rather have the dev team set out to do something and then I can judge the games based on what they do, not on whatever wishlist I have, as long as they don't make something that's completely unrecognizable (like the new Castelevanias).

 

[ibyea]

Zelda's my favorite series. I think it's fair to say I don't care about "misogyny."

But when people act like SS Zelda was really great in terms of agency or whatever, I can't help but think...Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Not really.

I'm fine with Zelda getting kidnapped, I'm not okay with that taking over Link's life/adventure/purpose.

EDIT: The only thing I care about is Link and the player. I want the world Link interacts with to take center stage. Not Zelda...if possible.

Yeah, the Zelda story in SS is more like Greek myths. More about being a plaything of fate than having agency.

 

[MrSaturn99]

So I just fought Dark Link in the Water Temple today.

That shit is tough. I'd like to see something like that here.

I think I'm so used to people demolishing SS for other, more nonsensical reasons, that I just get defensive about all aspects of it.

Skyward Sword fans* come across as really defensive about that game for whatever reason. Granted, it was the same deal with Wind Waker but that was at least understandable when regarding the initial negative reception.

*this isn't so much a jab at you as it is testimony from someone who witnessed the Gamefaqs SS board hivemind. And yes, I get the irony in labelling a Zelda fanbase a "hivemind" despite me dismissing the Zelda cycle, go figure

The mysogeny talk in Zelda is just as silly as the sexism talk in Captain Toad.

So stop it.

lmao this is a thing?

 

[The Boat]

This is what I want to assume, but I don't remember the game actually implying it anywhere.

The game clearly states

Spoiler

he's the OG Demon King that originated all monsters, launched an attack on the surface world and drove the few surviving humans to the flee to the sky, Hylia managed to seal him with the help of the remaining surface races, but was gravely wounded and ended up sacrificing her immortality. Not only that, Demise is the precursor to the evil severy subsequent Link and Zelda face.

He's no more "just kind of there" than any other Zelda main villain, which typically is the puppet master behind the scenes or the source of what's going on.

EDIT: About Zelda's agency,

Spoiler

on the surface she appears to have as much independence as Link, they're both doing their part to fulfill the fate that was handed to them, but in reality this fate was set in motion by Hylia, who's reborn as Zelda. So not only does she take on a dangerous quest to save the world while the hero is just playing catch up, she is also in fact, responsible for this chain of events, even if in a past life.

 

[zeldablue]

I'd like to know what specific aspects of Buddhism you are drawing on with your argument. If anything, the Hylia-Demise dichotomy is closer to Tao concepts of yin and yang.

I don't think I'm learned enough to talk about it. But Link's Awakening basically made me realize how that worldview influences the female characters in Zelda.

LA Spoilers:

Spoiler

Even though Marin is basically a Siren who could potentially prevent Link from ever waking up

she's a really nice character who I loved. It was odd to me that they'd make a pleasant character someone who emotionally blocks you from beating the game. So I read up on it and realized that Koholint

Spoiler

represents familiarity/nostalgia and a fake paradise. An illusion.

Link and the player aren't suppose to want to leave...and Marin is a huge factor in that resistance. A big part of Buddhism is about shedding off that attachment in whatever way possible. Seeing the female body as temporary and as an illusion. Fake, base, and material. Useless. Marin is basically this motherly character that you have to let go of...and it's really hard! (I quit the game! Again and again.)

As I learned more about the reason behind it I was just like..."Woah." @___@ You can only awaken once you've let go of that desire. That's the only way you can stop being scared of uncertainty and truly awaken past the illusion. It's one of my favorite plots in the series. And it goes along with some basic ideas about Buddhism...which I assume Koizumi is. (And a lot of others in Japan, no doubt.) Remember...the goal is to get out of the eternal illusion and break out of it...just like in LA.

However the dark side involves...Seeing women as disgusting. The cause for birth and death/reincarnation. Temporary, and tied to nature. Base and 2nd class. Inferior. etc etc etc. Uncapable of enlightenment, morally/spiritually inferior. Temptresses keeping you away from your true power/the truth. It doesn't matter if it's a mother, young girl or adult woman...it's all bad.

Most cultures and religions start with a fertility goddesses. Which is cool...and makes sense for SS (It's an origin story.) The whole story revolves around the end of this mommy clinging and going onto bigger and better things. This unfortunately means destroying mommy just like I guess Buddha did way back when. (Birthing out of his mom's hip, killing her.)

It's interesting. I like it. But it's not exactly empowering for women...who are still not exactly allowed to enlighten along with guys. (Marin can awaken with you if you don't die.) Aside from that, Buddhism has a lot of nice things to say about women. So it doesn't bother me much. I'm just trying to say that the general plot of SS is watching Zelda fall while Link rises. Like a mother and son. A lot of cultures tend to go from Mother Goddess --> Mother and child --> Fatherly God.

 

[HYDE]

Also your age only goes against your argument. You are the old guard whining about the new generation and the changes. That's just you not being comfortable with the idea of things changing, and the Zelda 2/SMB2 thing just bores that in.

What the hell are you talking about? Age solidifies my argument and I suggested change meaning I am embracing it. Where are you gathering your bullshit posts? I just don't like those two games, because they suck not because they were different. And you called me old just stfu ignorant junior.

 

[Ahnez]

When did this thread become an opinion war?

 

[Not]

Oh great, the "Link isn't a character" crap again. Yes, it's really time to go. Ugh, Zelda threads...

It's not Link, it's Linkelle. Link could be your damn rival

 

[Dimmle]

Buddha ran from his palace and witnessed starvation and suffering and decided to shed his material belongings, libido, and later his body. The flesh in general in Buddhism is seen as ultimately extraneous. You might want to conduct more thorough research and decide for yourself whether misogynistic elements of Buddhism are reflected in Zelda. At least have a concrete example to cite.

It stands to reason that most mythologies have aspects of sexism, but Zelda games use myth in way more creative and diverse ways than just reliance on patriarchal religious concepts.

If you know where you read that, I'd like to take a look. I love mythogical readings of Zelda, even if they're problematic ones.

EDIT: The elaborations you added to your post explain things a bit better, thanks. I forgot that the Buddha was birthed from his mom's hip.

 

[ibyea]

When did this thread become an opinion war?

The moment it was a Zelda thread. XD

 

[ibyea]

I don't think I'm learned enough to talk about it. But Link's Awakening basically made me realize how that worldview influences the female characters in Zelda.

LA Spoilers:

Spoiler

Even though Marin is basically a Siren who could potentially prevent Link from ever waking up

she's a really nice character who I loved. It was odd to me that they'd make a pleasant character someone who emotionally blocks you from beating the game. So I read up on it and realized that Koholint

Spoiler

represents familiarity/nostalgia and a fake paradise. An illusion.

Link and the player aren't suppose to want to leave...and Marin is a huge factor in that resistance. A big part of Buddhism is about shedding off that attachment in whatever way possible. Seeing the female body as temporary and as an illusion. Fake, base, and material. Useless. Marin is basically this motherly character that you have to let go of...and it's really hard! (I quit the game! Again and again.)

As I learned more about the reason behind it I was just like..."Woah." @___@ You can only awaken once you've let go of that desire. That's the only way you can stop being scared of uncertainty and truly awaken past the illusion. It's one of my favorite plots in the series. And it goes along with some basic ideas about Buddhism...which I assume Koizumi is. (And a lot of others in Japan, no doubt.) Remember...the goal is to get out of the eternal illusion and break out of it...just like in LA.

However the dark side involves...Seeing women as disgusting. The cause for birth and death/reincarnation. Temporary, and tied to nature. Base and 2nd class. Inferior. etc etc etc. Uncapable of enlightenment, morally/spiritually inferior. Temptresses keeping you away from your true power/the truth. It doesn't matter if it's a mother, young girl or adult woman...it's all bad.

Most cultures and religions start with a fertility goddesses. Which is cool...and makes sense for SS (It's an origin story.) The whole story revolves around the end of this mommy clinging and going onto bigger and better things. This unfortunately means destroying mommy just like I guess Buddha did way back when. (Birthing out of his mom's hip, killing her.)

It's interesting. I like it. But it's not exactly empowering for women...who are still not exactly allowed to enlighten along with guys. (Marin can awaken with you if you don't die.) Aside from that, Buddhism has a lot of nice things to say about women. So it doesn't bother me much. I'm just trying to say that the general plot of SS is watching Zelda fall while Link rises. Like a mother and son. A lot of cultures tend to go from Mother Goddess --> Mother and child --> Fatherly God.

Holy crap, I didn't know about the Buddhist stuff in LA!

And yeah, how many stories is about women being the root of bad things or about temptation? A million of them already. Adam and Eve being one of the more famous ones.

 

[zeldablue]

Buddha ran from his palace and witnessed starvation and suffering and decided to shed his material belongings, libido, and later his body. The flesh in general in Buddhism is seen as ultimately extraneous. You might want to conduct more thorough research and decide for yourself whether misogynistic elements of Buddhism are reflected in Zelda. At least have a concrete example to cite.

It stands to reason that most mythologies have aspects of sexism, but Zelda games use myth in way more creative and diverse ways than just reliance on patriarchal religious concepts.

If you know where you read that, I'd like to take a look. I love mythogical readings of Zelda, even if they're problematic ones.

EDIT: The elaborations you added to your post explain things a bit better, thanks. I forgot that the Buddha was birthed from his mom's hip.

Yarr. I'm a Zelda theorist. So I basically just google stuff to find out if there's mythological/religious/symbolic meaning behind certain things that perk my interest. That's all. I usually find a lot of interesting stuff that's on point though. Feminism and Buddhism have a lot in common, and overlap quite a bit so when I saw where the belief's split I was just interested, is all.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

It's not outrageous, I mean, let's be honest: Zelda has always been a largely male focused series. It's a tale of growth about a boy. Usually, saving a woman is the end-goal.

But that doesn't make it misogynistic, or every coming of age story centered around a boy would be considered as well. Misogyny is dislike or contempt for women.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

So I just fought Dark Link in the Water Temple today.

That shit is tough. I'd like to see something like that here.



Skyward Sword fans* come across as really defensive about that game for whatever reason. Granted, it was the same deal with Wind Waker but that was at least understandable when regarding the initial negative reception.

*this isn't so much a jab at you as it is testimony from someone who witnessed the Gamefaqs SS board hivemind. And yes, I get the irony in labelling a Zelda fanbase a "hivemind" despite me dismissing the Zelda cycle, go figure



lmao this is a thing?

People complained soon as they saw toadette. It was bad

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

The game clearly states

Spoiler

he's the OG Demon King that originated all monsters, launched an attack on the surface world and drove the few surviving humans to the flee to the sky, Hylia managed to seal him with the help of the remaining surface races, but was gravely wounded and ended up sacrificing her immortality. Not only that, Demise is the precursor to the evil severy subsequent Link and Zelda face.

He's no more "just kind of there" than any other Zelda main villain, which typically is the puppet master behind the scenes or the source of what's going on.

This is the part I didn't remember. If he is actually

Spoiler

the origin of all monsters,

that puts him in "god" territory (in terms of "power tiers," so to speak). I'll take it, though I generally prefer a bit more to the motivations of the "evil god" role.

When I said he was "just kind of there," I was talking about his presence and motivations in SS specifically, not in the series at large. All I remember for motivation was him wanting the Triforce, which makes sense, but it's a little bit thin to base

Spoiler

eternal reincarnation

on. Basically I would have liked it more if they had tinted it with something more than "I want power." Yeah people want power, but there are psychological reasons beyond just wanting it. Hinting at something like that, even if in a way that's not terribly original is the difference between a shallow villain and one with substance.

 

[SweetDonuts]

Oh great, the "Link isn't a character" crap again. Yes, it's really time to go. Ugh, Zelda threads...

http://i.imgur.com/4xT69.gif

Seriously. I normally stay out of Zelda threads myself as they usually turn into drivel like this one has. The thread was actually pleasant to read when it was on topic about Zelda U.

I think a lot of people like to project their own feelings onto these games and change the actual portrayal of it.

 

[zeldablue]

Seriously. I normally stay out of Zelda threads myself as they usually turn into drivel like this one has. The thread was actually pleasant to read when it was on topic about Zelda U.

I think a lot of people like to project their own feelings onto these games and change the actual portrayal of it.

D'aww booo.

Miyazaki is quite the left-wing Feminist Buddhist. I wonder if that'll effect Zelda U.



I don't really care either way...I just want Link to be cool and spend more time exploring and less time chasing Zelda.

 

[NathanS]

Zelda was the original sandbox game.

Colossal Cave Adventure. Gaming did not start with the Famicom.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Seriously. I normally stay out of Zelda threads myself as they usually turn into drivel like this one has. The thread was actually pleasant to read when it was on topic about Zelda U.

I think a lot of people like to project their own feelings onto these games and change the actual portrayal of it.

Something i dont understand.. honestly to think like that is of selfishness. Because you end up blocking everyone elses perspectives/wants/opinions/ideals to please only yours.

 

[ibyea]

Seriously. I normally stay out of Zelda threads myself as they usually turn into drivel like this one has. The thread was actually pleasant to read when it was on topic about Zelda U.

I think a lot of people like to project their own feelings onto these games and change the actual portrayal of it.

Hey, this thread wasn't that bad. There were mutual respect for people's opinions. ^_^

 

[zeldablue]

Something i dont understand.. honestly to think like that is of selfishness. Because you end up blocking everyone elses perspectives/wants/opinions/ideals to please only yours.

Well...

There is no right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so. I guess I should say "IMO" to make that clear.

 

[Dimmle]

This is the part I didn't remember. If he is actually

Spoiler

the origin of all monsters,

that puts him in "god" territory (in terms of "power tiers," so to speak). I'll take it, though I generally prefer a bit more to the motivations of the "evil god" role.

When I said he was "just kind of there," I was talking about his presence and motivations in SS specifically, not in the series at large. All I remember for motivation was him wanting the Triforce, which makes sense, but it's a little bit thin to base

Spoiler

eternal reincarnation

on. Basically I would have liked it more if they had tinted it with something more than "I want power." Yeah people want power, but there are psychological reasons beyond just wanting it. Hinting at something like that, even if in a way that's not terribly original is the difference between a shallow villain and one with substance.

Well, as a starting place for the events of the entire series, it makes sense for the villain to be an embodiment of evil. Pretty classic.

But yeah, it's clear to anyone who plays them that Zelda games are not harmfully sexist so much as they are occasionally
over-reliant on old tropes.

The Marin case in particular is really interesting, but I don't believe she's meant to represent femininity in its entirety as much as simply the comfort that Link must leave behind. She's representative of the entire island.