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[MHWilliams]

Michael Bay shoots action and spectacle well. He also shoots locations better than anyone else outside of maybe Justin Lin. One of the best in the business. And as our box office shrank, the international take got bigger.

Assuming you're wondering about BvS, the spectacle just wasn't there to make that money. You have four major action scenes in the film, two of which are small scale person vs. person fights. One is a chase scene that Bay has already destroyed in previous films. And the final fight... really isn't all that exciting. Snyder has amazing shot composition, but what he's doing in those scenes is just okay. Add in a significant amount of talking and exposition in the first half of the film and you see why BvS probably didn't perform well for audiences craving a pure action flick.

 

[xaosslug]

It was a huge event, it just wasn't the type of event people expected. BvS was like an epic 3 hour funeral procession.

exactly. It was hyped as an event, and even expected as such, but it didn't inspire that type of feeling in the audience (at least not until WW came on the scene, but by then it was too late).

 

[brandonh83]

Second half of Transformers 3 is the only material in the series I like because it had awesomely staged and executed action and few lines were spoken.

The rest of the series is total shit.

 

[Anth0ny]

Michael Bay shoots action and spectacle well. He also shoots locations better than anyone else outside of maybe Justin Lin. One of the best in the business. And as our box office shrank, the international take got bigger.

Assuming you're wondering about BvS, the spectacle just wasn't there to make that money. You have four major action scenes in the film, two of which are small scale person vs. person fights. One is a chase scene that Bay has already destroyed in previous films. And the final fight... really isn't all that exciting. Snyder has amazing shot composition, but what he's doing in those scenes is just okay. Add in a significant amount of talking and exposition in the first half of the film and you see why BvS probably didn't perform well for audiences craving a pure action flick.

So you think the word of mouth is actually positive coming out of a Transformers movie? Is it as simple as one bro telling their other bro "THE ACTION WAS SICK BRO MEGAN FOX IS SOOOOOOOOOOOO SEXY YOU GOTTA WATCH IT"

Because I can see the "Bay shoots action and spectacle well" argument, but it certainly doesn't count for shit when it comes to critical reception or online word of mouth.

 

[MikeyB]

Hollywood has the money, but overseas has the audience. So they crank out movies devoid of complexity or nuance, with a story like single-ply used TP, and tons of spectacle because it will translate well. You need at least some cultural context to tell compelling stories. International audiences won't get all of that.

It seems to be a good business decision that makes our blockbusters' storylines and acting objectively worse (to western audiences).

 

[Pilgrimzero]

They appeal to 6-year-old me who spent his afternoons smashing his G1 Prime, Megatron, Shockwave and Ultra Magnus together in pretend, epic battles.

The first one was great, the introduction of the TFs is one of the best scenes in the franchise, with them crashing to Earth and the completely bad ass score (seriously, Steve Jablonsky did a hell of a job with the scores for these movies).

Two...well, it was written in two weeks because of the writer's strike at the time, and most of the dialogue from the twins was completely improvised by their voice actors. Hell, most of the shoot was improvised because of the lack of time spent on the script due to the strike.

I fucking loved three for how dark it got. Plus, Prime has his trailer, Shockwave shows up, and the last 45 minutes or so were pure insanity.

Four...Prime rides a fucking dinosaur wielding a sword and shield. He's also in his G1 form when he's in hiding. The fan service was off the charts, and shit I've wanted to see in a movie since I was a kid.

I dunno, they're not "good" movies in any sense of the word, but as experiences and for me, personally, who has had a love of the franchise since its inception, the downsides were overcome by the sheer joy seeing these things on screen brought out in me. It took me back to a simpler time, which not too many things do these days.

Except they completely messed up the transforming and their robot form IMO. I went in expecting a G1 transformation and got a bunch of metal bits coming apart and reforming.

 

[neorej]

1) they're fun to watch, with the exception of 4, which makes me wonder how well 5 will perform
2) unlike Batman v Superman there's a clear narrative , the stories move clearly from point a to z, with an occasional bump or twist along the way. BvS goes all over the place 30 minutes in, the movie goes from a to f in decent order, then decides to do kngipwrvsqumljhto, followed by xyz.
3) as dumb as they are, they're stupid fun like a bad rollercoaster, you know it sucks, and you know it's not the best thing ever, but you're with friends so fuck it, have a beer and enjoy the experience anyway. BvS was marketed and pushed as the intelligent and deep and profound savior of CBMs. A different offering than the hollow quipfests of the Marvel universe, some even called it. And yes, most would agree that there's room for serious films on superheroes, Chronicle and Super proved that. That's not a rollercoaster you tried for fun, that's a deep, thought provoking book you're about to read, but when that book's pages are not in order, letters have been garbled and phrases are not coherent English, that's a book very hard to read and not easily recommended to friends.

 

[More_Badass]

Except they completely messed up the transforming and their robot form IMO. I went in expecting a G1 transformation and got a bunch of metal bits coming apart and reforming.

Eh, the movies don't make that kind of money because if it only appeals to G1 fans. These look more realistic and looks more impressive CGI-wise, more moving parts and more dynamic.

Much better and interesting than that blocky look from the cartoons (speaking as someone with zero interest in the cartoons and only watched the movies)

 

[Wellscha]

 

[Soldiussnaku]

Yup I really like both of them and don't consider them bad movies. I consider TF2 to be really bad but I have rewatched 1 and 3 multiple times and still enjoy them.

TF1 is, imho, really quite good, has some excellently directed action sequences, without all the headache inducing noise and visual garbage 2 and 4 had.

I re-watched 1 recently. Some of the action parts meld live action and cgi really well together. The cgi still holds up quite well and save for a few sequences that involve dust, explosions or cgi humans, hasn't aged badly. The cameramen/women and ILM (as usual) did a fucking bang up job of bringing the robots to life.

Sure a part of me hates the over engineered and million-pieces-moving-at-once designs of the Transformers, but TF1 at least made an effort to distinguish the robots, whereas 2 and 3 made a mess of things.

Plus the sound design is SUBLIME in 1. Gives a real sense of presence and power to the robots.

 

[Disgraced]

I've always loved this song. It's really heroic, not to mention recognizable.

I have conflicted feelings about the movies and Bay in general.

 

[cr0w]

Except they completely messed up the transforming and their robot form IMO. I went in expecting a G1 transformation and got a bunch of metal bits coming apart and reforming.

It's for much the same reason as they use textures and symbols on superhero suits instead of flat spandex like Reeve wore in his Superman days. It's more visually interesting to people, and the designs they went with actually worked with the vehicles they used instead of something like a Lamborghini turning into a robot with the proportions of a cardboard box.

 

[MHWilliams]

So you think the word of mouth is actually positive coming out of a Transformers movie? Is it as simple as one bro telling their other bro "THE ACTION WAS SICK BRO MEGAN FOX IS SOOOOOOOOOOOO SEXY YOU GOTTA WATCH IT"

Because I can see the "Bay shoots action and spectacle well" argument, but it certainly doesn't count for shit when it comes to critical reception or online word of mouth.

Yes, I think domestic and international audiences are leaving Bay's films and answering the question "Was that fun?" with "Yes." Domestic audiences less so as time has gone on.

That doesn't mean that you can't do a film that's not fun with heavy themes and be successful, but you have to actually execute on that correctly. Batman v Superman is not that film. Since it hits neither side full on, the film seems to have a disconnect with audiences. As another contrast, Marvel's films are dead simple to understand from a story perspective, their characters are enjoyable, and their fight scenes are generally solid.

Critics and audiences aren't always on the same page. There are poorly constructed films that audiences enjoy. There are well-made and well-reviewed films that audiences don't care about. BvS is seemingly neither.

Other films that were critically maligned, but still made a ton of money:

Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest
Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End
Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides
Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace
Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs
Ice Age: Continental Drift
The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn Part 2

And that's just in the top 50 All-Time. Star Wars is Star Wars, Pirates films are still enjoyable adventures, kids love Ice Age, and Twilight is an adaptation of a best-selling young adult novel, the final film in the franchise.

 

[ramparter]

There are people that think they are good movies sadly. Can't find any other explanation...

 

[More_Badass]

There are people that think they are good movies sadly. Can't find any other explanation...

There's a difference between a good movie and an enjoyable movie. The Transformers are the latter.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

They are dumb movies and most people in the world are dumb

lol this got a legitimate laugh out of me.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

I feel like the OP is having a mini meldown right now.

OT: Bay is the best in the industry at creating pure spectacle without much substance. I still have to admit the CGI on the transformers is top notch.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Bernie Mac in T1 will never not get a laugh out of me.

Movie had some serious hype moments, too.

Michael Bay knows how to direct action and has the perfect franchise to go buck wild

So people put up with all the other dumb shit

I'd also have no problem arguing that Transformers 1 is a legit good movie, and Transformers 3 is just absolute CARNAGE when Chicago gets wiped the fuck out

T1 was legit decent. Good action sequences, solid pacing, not the worst acting in the world. Plot wasn't awful.

T2 had terrible pacing, wasn't funny, but the action sequences were good. The highway and Prime in the forest were all good.

T3 was better than 2. A bit longer, but more action and better pacing. Wasn't nearly as crass, I felt.

T4, though, I can't defend. That movie was just garbage. Terrible acting, plot, action. I've very rarely been bored during action sequences. This movie, though? Bored to tears. I almost fell asleep in the theater. Awful. So bad it made me retroactively hate all of the movies. But now T5 is showing significantly more promise...goddamnit fuck this franchise so much.

What I always find funny is that Jazz in the '07 film wasn't much better but doesn't catch nearly the amount of shit.

He says "What's crackin' little bitches?" Then he helps kill the tank (Forgot name). Then gets ripped in half by Megatron. "You want a piece of me?" "No. I want two."

It's hard to get mad at that.

They're fucking trashy, crass, racist, obnoxious nonsense. Whatever talent Bay has is buried underneath his shitty sensibilities and disdain for the movie-watching public.

There's a lot of this, too.

 

[Chopper]

I am a huge fan of big dumb action films and, as a child of the 80s, Transformers. I feel as though the fact that I haven't seen a Transformers since 2 is a testament to the shitness of the franchise. The first one was fun for the novelty of seeing a live-action Transformers movie, so I watched the second out of morbid curiosity. I was so offended by its shitness that I have absolutely no desire to see any of the other movies, ever. No regrets.

 

[Sammo_1987]

Yeesh, movie elitism is no fun guys. One man's treasure and all that!

Unfortunately I guess I fulfil the brainless masses criteria. I grew up on Transformers, and the first movie was everything I dreamed it could be. The moment the 'Arrival on Earth' track started playing, culminating in seeing and hearing Optimus Prime in the cinema for the first time gave me probably the only legitimate nerdgasm I've ever had - childhood dream fulfilled.

I didn't enjoy the second one so much but did really enjoy seeing Shockwave in action in 3, plus the climactic action scenes of the film. Have to admit I didn't enjoy AoE so much, despite the inclusion of the Dinobots.

Anyway, I'm part of the so called problem and have no qualms about it either ;-)

 

[Haly]

I can't speak personally for the Chinese moviegoing audience but I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate your casual condescension of their collective taste. I think you're missing the fact that the Bayformer movies just might more entertaining than BvS was. It's a mistake to listen to the echo chamber of internet culture and assume this is how everyone in the world thinks or behaves.

And I question the priorities of anyone coming out of a Transformers whose first thought is "this is a poor film, objectively speaking". It's just not really worthy of that level of consideration. An aggregate of binary likes/dislikes being high or low doesn't actually translate to financial success or artistic merit. RT scores should only seriously be used in online dick measuring contests.

 

[freenudemacusers]

they're basically better looking video games without bad controls or the need to buy special hardware.

 

[Shadow_Lord]

 

[Schlorgan]

I feel pretty good about never seeing any past the first one, which I saw in the dollar theater.

 

[slightconfuse]

people like the attempt at comedy instead of the srs business of BVS

 

[Shmuppers]

i think the hot girl calls megatron a bitch in the third one

yeah it was sick

I watch these movies for the designs of the robots, and the CG action.

Transformers 1 in particular had this little human sized robot that assembled itself with ball bearings and had these paper-thin, razor sharp appendages that made it look invisible if looked at head-on. That thing looked so cool. Can't find a pic of it sadly.

Transformers 1 also blew me away as a kid during the opening scene, where the helicopter Decepticon tears apart that base.

 

[Camoxide]

I enjoyed watching T1, T2 and T3 (maybe not so much T2...) but T4 was the only one I walked out of the cinema feeling like I just wasted money.

Also is it just me or is the product placement getting worse? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIVKQV0sJ-8

 

[jackdoe]

A question for those who speak Chinese and have watched Age of Extinction in a Chinese theater. Do they edit those tasteless statutory rape jokes out of the film for the Chinese release?

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

I enjoyed them for what they are, big dumb action movies but I would love to see a reboot one day, where they respect the source material much more.

 

[neverknowsbest]

Keep in mind that for a lot of people (kids, especially), having an incoherent plot isn't a negative.

 

[Menitta]

The Transformers movies were terrible.

However, they did bring back G1 and all the classic Transformers into the mainstream. Without these movies, we never would've gotten Transformers Devastation.

 

[BKatastrophe]

yeah it was sick

I watch these movies for the designs of the robots, and the CG action.

Transformers 2 in particular had this little human sized robot that assembled itself with ball bearings and had these paper-thin, razor sharp appendages that made it look invisible if looked at head-on. That thing looked so cool. Can't find a pic of it sadly.

Transformers 1 also blew me away as a kid during the opening scene, where the helicopter Decepticon tears apart that base.

Fixed that for you

I enjoyed watching T1, T2 and T3 (maybe not so much T2...) but T4 was the only one I walked out of the cinema feeling like I just wasted money.

Also is it just me or is the product placement getting worse? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIVKQV0sJ-8

The product placement was so blatant I couldn't even be made. It's like Bay just gave up

 

[SFenton]

I enjoyed watching T1, T2 and T3 (maybe not so much T2...) but T4 was the only one I walked out of the cinema feeling like I just wasted money.

Also is it just me or is the product placement getting worse? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIVKQV0sJ-8

Yeah, same.

Really liked T1.
Indifferent to 2.
Liked 3 leaving the theater but the longer I thought the more I disliked.
4 I left the theater pretty disappointed.

 

[GabeTheGrouch76]

T1, save for some corny sequences and odder bits of humor (namely Bumblebee urinating on that agent after Sam), is still a pretty fun film. Easily still the best, though general consensus is that's not saying much.

T2 was a load of nonsense and went way too over the top with its humor. It took the tone of humor from the first movie and absolutely ran with them with the pot jokes, humping dogs, the huge Devastator having metal balls, and the racial caricatures Transformers Skids and Mudflap (the production staff's explanation for them that they were stereotypes of poorly educated white teenagers, rather than poorly educated black teenagers....lmao). Reportedly the script was made on-the-fly / rushed to avoid the WGA strike and it shows. Holy hell it really shows with that film (worth noting that the writers for T2 are also the writers for the Kung Fu Panda movies).

T3 still has problems but I think it's more of an improvement than given credit for. It still has that odder bits from the first two films, but I actually liked the bleaker tone it took with its narrative and I can appreciate its attempt at trying to do something of a historical thriller during the second act. What largely elevates it well beyond 2 though is the last third, when it turns into an an all-out war movie, great stuff IMO. I'd personally say it's not too far behind the first.

T4 is more of a really, really, mediocre movie that just does not know when to pack it up and go home. If they chopped an entire hour from the film and re-edited it I think it would had been considerably better. There's probably 45 minutes worth of unneeded filler that was probably added just to bloat the film even further. The China action sequences (namely with the gravity alteration sequences) barely elevate it a bit more than T2. Maybe.

I dont really understand the hate for Transformer movies. But I do know that last 3 fast and furious movies were absolutely shitfest. Cringworthy, nonsense crap. And still made billions

Only Furious 7 made a billion.

And lol, I'd argue the last three films was when the F&F films actually started getting good (and dare I say, in a lot of ways are basically what Bay sets out to do with TF but done much better in comparison). :v

First was okay but the three sequels that followed I felt were pretty forgettable otherwise. That changed when Fast Five was a F&F film that also doubled a solid heist movie, and the sixth and seventh went purely for huge stunts and ridiculous spectacle. I think the films (and their stories) were consequently a lot better off as a result.

 

[zma1013]

Do you know the real sickening thing about their tremendous financial success? The last couple have god damned commercials in the movies that have nothing to do with anything else and actually stop everything everyone is doing to plug some drinks.

I think it was the forth one where dude is drinking a juice box or something while cheesing in front of the camera and its like a solid 30 seconds or some shit.

Why are they doing this with a billion dollar franchise? Its unacceptable. It should not be tolerated.

 

[GOOCHY]

Do you know the real sickening thing about their tremendous financial success? The last couple have god damned commercials in the movies that have nothing to do with anything else and actually stop everything everyone is doing to plug some drinks.

I think it was the forth one where dude is drinking a juice box or something while cheesing in front of the camera and its like a solid 30 seconds or some shit.

Why are they doing this with a billion dollar franchise? Its unacceptable. It should not be tolerated.

Dude, the entire first movie was a commercial for Pepsi, Chevrolet, and untold others. It was the first movie I have ever gotten up and just walked out of. It's not surprising that overseas audiences are eating it up though.

 

[Corpsepyre]

Michael Bay, while making terrible films for the most part, knows how to get the audience riled up. He knows them, and feeds off of their need, the need of having hot chicks, ass shots, cool cars, robots smashing each other, with the American flag plastered on the screen, in their movies. His films are VERY American, and people dig them.

 

[dan2026]

I'll never get over how crappy the Transformers movie designs are.

They look like bits of scrap metal awkwardly superglued together.

 

[G-Fex]

Trash that makes money

I cannot put enough emphasis in how much I hate this film series, it's something I hate so very much.

People will say 'oh it's mindless blockbusters' no it's trash. Most unentertaining garbage that will continue to make money cause it's already got people hooked with it's same shit story beats in every single movie (if you can call it a story).

 

[Freiya]

I enjoyed all the Transformers movies. They aren't the greatest and I really wish Shia would come back but how can you not like big ass robots blowing shit up. I feel like any kid who grew up on this stuff or likes anime etc would love these movies.


Imo people take movies way too seriously. Transformers always seemed like a fun summer action movie to me and I dunno why it has to be anything more than that. I also didn't have a big problem with Bat man vs Superman either though so ;D

 

[CraigerGamer]

I really enjoy the first Transformers. Its one of those movies that when its on, I have to watch it until the credits are rolling. One thing I don't understand though is, what city are they in for the final battle?

So they free Bumble Bee and let Megatron loose at the Hoover Dam, and then they drive/fly to...? Its not Las Vegas. So where do they go?

Oh, and Megan Fox. She was absolutely perfect for that role.

 

[Garlador]

I admit, having seen three of them and deciding "yeah, these really aren't getting better", I am baffled at their sustainability.

Not because they're dumb action films - I love dumb action films! - but because of how much stuff is in the films that ISN'T awesome dumb action and is instead dedicated to things like masturbation jokes, pot brownies, giant robot scrotums, racist stereotypes, dogs humping, horny robot innuendos, Texas loopholes to justify a creepy underage sex scenario, more racist stereotypes, objectifying more teenage girls, "wacky" best friends/roommates/neighbors that nobody remembers 5 seconds after the film ends, more pee and fart jokes... and bloated nearly 3 hour runtimes with actual "Transformers" action making up about 10% of that screentime.

Even if I just want to watch Optimus Prime ride into battle riding a robot dinosaur, there is a LOT of crap to sit through to get to those highlights.

 

[Username1198]

People like to see shit get sploded up and Mikey makes the splodiest movies around.

For the record I hate bays transformers with a passion.

Thank jeebue they got gi joe right.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

People who say Michael Bay has no talent is over simplifying things. He is great at handling big set production. Maybe it's due to the people he works with or the way he shoots. No matter the way, he knows how to make films look even more impressive and expensive than they are.


There are Bay films I genuinely really like. Bad Boys 1 and 2, Armageddon and the Island are my favorite. The aesthetic of the Island is really nice. it's like a worse version of that similar segment in cloud atlas or an inferior version of Minority Report, but I still liked it.
And Transformers 1 was a genuinely charming film that surprised me.

But Transformers 2 is perhaps the worst film I have seen in theaters. My dislike for that film is incredible. The scene where Optimus Prime is dead and he starts talking. CRINGNGGEEEEEEEEEEEE.

 

[G-Fex]

I admit, having seen three of them and deciding "yeah, these really aren't getting better", I am baffled at their sustainability.

Not because they're dumb action films - I love dumb action films! - but because of how much stuff is in the films that ISN'T awesome dumb action and is instead dedicated to things like masturbation jokes, pot brownies, giant robot scrotums, racist stereotypes, dogs humping, horny robot innuendos, Texas loopholes to justify a creepy underage sex scenario, more racist stereotypes, objectifying more teenage girls, "wacky" best friends/roommates/neighbors that nobody remembers 5 seconds after the film ends, more pee and fart jokes... and bloated nearly 3 hour runtimes with actual "Transformers" action making up about 10% of that screentime.

Even if I just want to watch Optimus Prime ride into battle riding a robot dinosaur, there is a LOT of crap to sit through to get to those highlights.

I forgot how much bay likes those shots of the supposedly 16 year old girl in the movie, like the low angled back shot

 

[To Far Away Times]

I remember being confused as hell during the fight scenes in Transformers 1. Part of the whole "Shake the camera and hope for the best" school of filmmaking. I didn't watch the sequels.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Transformers are perfect no-brainer/hangover-day movies. They are pretty, funny, lots of action and they're amazingly and laugahble stupid. They're nearly perfect in the genre. They are trash and rubbish, but at the same time they entertain.

Even bad movies can be good movies when they're bad in a right way. Transformers nail the good-bad in right way for me.

 

[Cheerilee]

I don't agree with the opinion that Bayformers 1 was good. I watched it in the theaters on opening weekend, and left the theater feeling disgusted. I watched the next three out of morbid curiosity (and didn't pay a dime to do it), and regretted all of them.

Roger Ebert gave Bayformers 1 a positive review, but he had complaints. He said it was stupid and badly written, it was sexist and racist, the character designs were a pile of metal-shrapnel trash, the choreography was a shaky-cam mess, and it was too long, but... he laughed, and he thinks the movie is a self-aware parody, and it's something different from the same old output from cookie-cutter Hollywood. So, thumbs up!

IIRC, Ebert said that the reason he went all-in guns-blazing against Bayformers 2 ("Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" is a horrible experience of unbearable length, briefly punctuated by three or four amusing moments) is because it was the exact same movie as Bayformers 1, but slightly worse. All of the things he railed against in his Bayformers 2 review were already present in his Bayformers 1 review. If the two movies were watched in reverse order, Bayformers 1 would not have his endorsement. This franchise is not a self-aware parody, because if it was, Bayformers 2 would be the better joke.

I would say that Bayformers 1 is probably the best (least worst) of the Bayformers movies, although that's not saying a lot. These movies are all generally in the same range. The best thing about these movies is the fan-analysis that flipped the entire idea of the movies on their head (posted earlier in this thread), although I don't believe the theory holds up and it gives too much credit to incompetent hacks.

I really have no explanation for the popularity of these movies, except that they destroy my faith in humanity. Moviegoers are nothing but tasteless popcorn-eating sheep.

 

[roflwaffles]

The Transformers franchise is like the cinematic equivalent to the Trump presidential campaign.

 

[jdstorm]

Because as much as a certain type of person likes to hate on Michael Bay. He is a genuinely talented director who is great at making action films.
If what Bay does was easy films like Pacific Rim and Battleship wouldn't have tanked. It's hard to make a great ensemble film featuring that level of destruction. Just ask Zach Schnider.

The transformers films are films that are accessible to the whole family, you can take a 5 year old to see any of them. They don't have overly gratuitous swearing or nudity despite what some might say about bay's Male Gaze and they are about giant robots punching things.

As a personal note. The first Transformers film is easily better then The Force Awakens, Jurassic World. so it seems unfair to criticise the Transformers compared to that list