NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Fortunately I wasn't crazy about fighting games or arcades back then. Being into platformers, the Neo Geo never really appealed to me. Yeah, the graphics I saw in magazines were crazy, but Street Fighter 2 was the big thing at the time and you could get it on your measly SNES. When the NG finally got some serious SF2 competitors, the PlayStation was around the corner.
roosnam1980
Member
underrated console
SkylineRKR
Member
I have the Neogeo AES still. Sometimes I hook it up to test it. And then stick to multiple rounds of Shodown 2.
Having said that, you can pretty much play any Neogeo game in excellent form on other consoles too, with arcade sticks. Those SS collection and Hamster ports are perfect as far as I can see.
But there is nothing like using the real system, with a real big ass cart.
Having said that, you can pretty much play any Neogeo game in excellent form on other consoles too, with arcade sticks. Those SS collection and Hamster ports are perfect as far as I can see.
But there is nothing like using the real system, with a real big ass cart.
cireza
Member
The Neo Geo was good, but I much more enjoyed the Neo Geo CD(Z). Sound on Neo Geo was a bit disappointing especially as SNK stopped using the FM Synth for music to push everything as samples, leading to poor sound quality on cartridge games. In the meantime, the CD versions of the games had unbelievable Arranged Sound Tracks. As well as having more features of standards console ports.
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Vyse
Gold Member
Way beyond what I could afford back in the day. Also passed on the 3DO. Sticked with the mainstream systems.
Used to go into a video game store In manhattan when I was heading to Penn Station after work in the early 90's. They had a Neo Geo set up and it always had a line to play. Impressive machine.
Used to go into a video game store In manhattan when I was heading to Penn Station after work in the early 90's. They had a Neo Geo set up and it always had a line to play. Impressive machine.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I didn't watch the video but did it need to be saved? It was very successful, maybe too successful, because SNK could never make another system to build off its success (CD, SNK64, NGP) and they were releasing games on it well into the 2000s.
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ReBurn
Gold Member
I really wanted one, too. I could barely afford my rent at the time so there was no way I was splurging on this. I never did get one but I have purchased a bunch of the ACA Neo Geo titles to play. I dumped a lot of quarters into Sengoku, Samurai Shodown, and King of Fighters games.
RAIDEN1
Member
Well it would have given the likes of Sega and Nintendo to something more to think about rather than it just being between those 2...Even though it was unfathomable at the time, had Capcom ported Streetfighter 2 to the AES, it would have been nigh on arcade perfect....(after all the original SF2 did come out on every single system under the sun at the time...outside of Neo Geo)
diffusionx
Gold Member
The Neo-Geo was never meant to compete with Sega and Nintendo in sales, though. It offered an exact arcade experience and was very good at that.
yurinka
Member
There's an indie team making a new game for Neo Geo (plus Mega Drive, Dreamcast and MS DOS) and are running a crowdfunding at Indiegogo, a Kickstarter equivalent:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sovietborgs-for-sega-genesis-neo-geo-more--3#/updates/8
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sovietborgs-for-sega-genesis-neo-geo-more--3#/updates/8
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ReyBrujo
Member
Never been a fan of SNK games, I remember the only game I ever wished to have from Neo Geo was Blue's Journey after reading a Hobby Consolas magazine review.
Nah, bordeline overrated. TurboGrafx / PC Engine was the underrated one.
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Vyse
Gold Member
Yeah, those cartridges were massive.There's an indie team making a new game for Neo Geo (plus Mega Drive, Dreamcast and MS DOS) and are running a crowdfunding at Indiegogo, a Kickstarter equivalent:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sovietborgs-for-sega-genesis-neo-geo-more--3#/updates/8
roosnam1980
Member
Team Andromeda
Member
Silly Video from Lord X
But I will say the Neo Geo was home to some of the best shooters and sports games of all time
But I will say the Neo Geo was home to some of the best shooters and sports games of all time
StreetsofBeige
Member
Agreed.
I enjoyed my time playing NG games in the arcade dumping in quarters to play Magician Lord, Baseball Stars and Super Spy. But everyone knows NG is an arcade system as its roots, so it's a very sizzling, but small steak. World Series Baseball on Genesis was 10x better than Baseball Stars 1 and 2 despite shittier graphics. Thats not to say I didnt play BS games in the arcade, but not for home gaming at like $300 CDN per mega cartridge.
Fantastic system if someone wants awesome 16-bit on steroids fighting games as there were endless franchises of them and someone can sink tons of time into fighting games if they like it. But most of their other games are as you said, shallow. Quarter munching arcade shallow.
I was interested in buying that Neo Geo X emulation system long time ago. But never got around to it. I think it was about $200 CDN and came with 20 games and even a handheld add-on. I remember hearing some sketchy stuff with the system too which turned me off. And I think the cables were way too short for my room set up. I probably could find some cable extension cords, but that added to not bothering.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Samurai Showdown and MOTW are shallow arcade games? Not with the game mechanics they have.
What I was thinking too. And like someone else said, Neo-Geo wasn't developed to compete directly with Genesis & SNES. If it had support for tiles (NG used sprites for everything) and actual scaling (it only shrank sprites), it'd of been the first console on par with (many, not all) of SEGA's Super Scalar boards, IMO.
Or at least the first console with virtually indistinguishable ports.
Glad you at least separated fighting games out of that; I've seen too many people lump them in with being shallow arcade games too, which usually just tells me they're people who never got good at mastering the game mechanics in them or played competitively. More single-player content couldn't have hurt in the home ports though (that didn't start becoming standard until the Tekken games on PS1, and some exceptions like the Tobal series).
Even so I wouldn't say all of the non-fighting games are "quarter munching shallow". Pulstar absolutely requires skill mastery, and with that you can 1CC the whole game. Same with games like Last Resort and Blazing Star. And stuff like Windjammers have a pretty neat competitive scene too, so there are mechanics there to master similar to the fighting games.
Were these games worth $200 a pop new? Guess that really depends on how much you needed top-end 2D graphics at home. But I think one thing that did dampen Neo-Geo adoption rates (beside price), was that arcades were still quite prolific in many places, and the fighting game boom SF2 ushered revitalized their spread in the early-mid '90s. So even for the affluent kids, they could've just spent $0.50 or $1 to play those top-end arcade games at a nearby arcade or resort, not to mention the 3D games that were starting to gain profile during that time. Arcades were also much more economical for non-affluent kids in middle & low income surburban/urban areas if they wanted top-end graphics they couldn't get on a home console.
Ironically if the fighting game boon didn't happen, it could've helped Neo-Geo some. Arcades wouldn't have regained so much ground so less people'd have access to playing top-end graphical powerhouse games that way. On the other hand, probably would've also hurt the system as a lot of the appeal later on came from its fighting games, games that wouldn't have been made if the fighter boon never happened.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Fighting games are the most shallow. doesn't have anything to do with game mechanics which is a totally separate thing. all you have is 2 characters battling each other at a time in a laddered progression. the total game package is inherently shallow. its why they come with single player story modes these days.
getting good at a fighting game is like someone playing super Mario world 1- 1 over and over again to get the best time. There is depth to the gameplay but it's just one level.
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CrimsonTide
Member
Was never THAT into fighters or shoot 'em ups
Was fine with the consoles of the time filling the need for a few
Was cool, but never appealed to me. Had I been MAJOR into fighters, sure, I would have attempted to get my parents to get one. Would they? Maybe not lol
Was fine with the consoles of the time filling the need for a few
Was cool, but never appealed to me. Had I been MAJOR into fighters, sure, I would have attempted to get my parents to get one. Would they? Maybe not lol
ReasonBeing
Member
nkarafo
Member
Neo-Geo emulation was also very good in the late 90's/early 00's when the real killer app behemoths such as Metal Slug X and 3 were released.
NeverYouMind
Member
One of the only genres in gaming with strategies thinking many moves ahead and you think its focus being constrained is shallow. Go play some Flappy Bird.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Bad system, terrible selection of RPGs.
Dacvak
No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
Neo Geo has some of the best arcade-style games and is genuinely still impressive to this day.
Shoutouts to probably the greatest virtual golf game ever:
Shoutouts to probably the greatest virtual golf game ever:
Azzurri
Member
Me too, it was like $800-900 in the mid 90s.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Also one of the best soundtracks on the system. I didn't discover the game until super late - probably in 2008 when I finally tried it on a compilation. I didn't expect anything out of it because *why would I want to play a golf game?*, and within about 3 minutes I was completely hooked. The game really pushes you on some of those courses, but getting good at it is just immensely satisfying. And I love that I could go back today - or any day, really - and have just as much fun as I did the first time I played it. A completely timeless game.
Dacvak
No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
Same for me! I actually downloaded it as a "joke" when it released on the Switch 1 (it was close to being a launch title). I was hanging with my cereal friend, and decided to impulse buy it on the eshop. We immediately were blown away by the soundtrack, which is so good. (I've performed the Germany track live a bunch of times since then, I love it so much.)
And the actual golfing gameplay is also super tight and enjoyable with just the right amount of arcade bullshit difficulty.
You're totally right. The game is timeless.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Right, now I'm actually watching the video, and I like when Sega Lord X does these type of 'alternative history' video game speculations. They're great thought exercises.
His HES idea is interesting, but the Neo Geo already had an HES model of sorts: the Silver SKU. A little looking and it shows that released at $399 at launch; expensive as hell compared to SEGA and Nintendo, but not $649 expensive. That model already had no pack-in and a standard joystick controller, so it's basically the HES he proposed while still retaining the memory card slot (something I'd rather SNK keep), minus the cartridge slot still being too big.
Actually, had the cartridge slot been redesigned for smaller carts, that'd of probably shaved another $50 off the SKU, and if SNK wanted market share, they could've taken a $50 or even $100 subsidy to hit $299 or $249. And that is definitely within reach of MegaDrive/Genesis and SNES pricing, for much more performance in 2D games.
But, then that introduces a pretty big problem. If you make the cartridges smaller, you're basically letting most of that processing power go to waste. Plus, the Neo Geo wasn't capable of scaling up sprites; it could only scale down. So smaller cartridges hurt it much more than systems like Genesis, PC-Engine or SNES. So you've got three choices, both of which add cost to the system:
Personally, I think a combination of 1 & 2 would be the best approach. Upgrade the hardware to fully support sprite scaling, rotation and Mode 7-style effects at the very least (processing power for rudimentary 3D could likely be optional), but do it through a board revision integrated into the hardware itself. Still lets SNK spin off that into MVS system revisions, and while it may add a bit more cost to the system w/ backend production costs, they can still afford to eat the added cost while targeting $299 or maybe even $269.
So a potentially aggressive $269, only $69 more than SNES's launch price (same year), same feature set but significantly more powerful 2D capabilities, and with good enough market adoption that price can come down in due time. IF they could throw in some processing power for rudimentary 3D graphics and keep MSRP around $299 at most, considering the ways they could advertise that as an additional advantage over SNES & Genesis....I'd of done so if I were SNK.
EDIT: Also SLX does mention compression helping with cartridge sizes, but the tricky thing is Neo Geo did not use tiles in the way other 2D systems did. It used sprites for everything, including background elements. Compression with sprites would generally not be as efficient as with tiles, though I'm sure many actual Neo-Geo games used cool tricks to squeeze compression where possible.
Really, it's the lack of upscaling sprites in hardware that would exacerbate the smaller cartridge situation for a more mass-market style Neo Geo system. You'd need to store sprites at the largest intended sizes on the carts, and figure out compression schemes from there. Indexed color palettes is one example (I know Neo Geo supports 16-bit color with 1-bit reserved for transparency on-off of a select color via color keying), but maybe supporting 12-bit color with no transparency bit would've been another option.
Or, focusing on graphics with 8-bit grayscale indexed palettes and smaller 8-bit or even 4-bit color indexed palettes (assuming sprites could support more than one palette...I'm not actually sure if that's something Neo Geo supported or not), etc.
EDIT EDIT: Also his suggestion of a SNK/NEC/Hudson Soft partnership is both interesting and ironic because, well, I've been thinking of & working on a concept of those same three companies in a partnership. But that one is more focused on a 5th-gen solution, not a 4th-gen console.
And it's more than just a console. But, I'm still working out a lot of the details. If I ever got enough vested funds to gather a team, would really like to make it a real product offering & business model. Hopefully I can talk more about it at a future date; I feel retro gamers and even people just feeling modern gaming's getting soulless & too "best practices" corporate, would really enjoy it.
His HES idea is interesting, but the Neo Geo already had an HES model of sorts: the Silver SKU. A little looking and it shows that released at $399 at launch; expensive as hell compared to SEGA and Nintendo, but not $649 expensive. That model already had no pack-in and a standard joystick controller, so it's basically the HES he proposed while still retaining the memory card slot (something I'd rather SNK keep), minus the cartridge slot still being too big.
Actually, had the cartridge slot been redesigned for smaller carts, that'd of probably shaved another $50 off the SKU, and if SNK wanted market share, they could've taken a $50 or even $100 subsidy to hit $299 or $249. And that is definitely within reach of MegaDrive/Genesis and SNES pricing, for much more performance in 2D games.
But, then that introduces a pretty big problem. If you make the cartridges smaller, you're basically letting most of that processing power go to waste. Plus, the Neo Geo wasn't capable of scaling up sprites; it could only scale down. So smaller cartridges hurt it much more than systems like Genesis, PC-Engine or SNES. So you've got three choices, both of which add cost to the system:
1: Redesign the hardware to support hardware sprite scaling fully, and Mode 7 effects (to compete with SNES and soon-to-release SEGA CD, which both support it). Probably the costliest option on the backend, but mainly in R&D and some hardware modification changes. Can technically also be re-spun into the MVS platform to recoup the R&D costs, and would be the easiest option to do that with.
2: Release an add-on cartridge implementing full hardware sprite scaling, Mode 7 and maybe even rudimentary 3D processing capabilities. The issue here is outside of the simplest games, the add-on would be mandatory considering no support for AES-style cartridge sizes, and including the cartridge in HES SKU either means higher MSRP or more costs to eat by SNK. Also, not as easily re-usable in MVS hardware; it'd probably need to be implemented into an add-on board design.
3: Release a CD-ROM add-on. In this case, they can skip adding full hardware sprite scaling (technically speaking), since CDs can store more than enough data of any size in the era. But the CD-ROM add-on would need a decently sized buffer, I guess at least 512 KB, to make that approach feasible. Being a CD-ROM add-on, people are going to expect FMV support, so if the base system doesn't have that, the add-on would need it instead.
All of this would probably make it the most expensive option because CD-ROM drives & tech was not cheap for mass-market devices in 1991, and in case of an HES with support for only smaller cartridges and lack of full hardware sprite scaling, would be mandatory. Could also run into similar issues as SEGA CD with overreliance on shallow FMV titles (at least in the West) to try justifying it (and the HES as a whole).
2: Release an add-on cartridge implementing full hardware sprite scaling, Mode 7 and maybe even rudimentary 3D processing capabilities. The issue here is outside of the simplest games, the add-on would be mandatory considering no support for AES-style cartridge sizes, and including the cartridge in HES SKU either means higher MSRP or more costs to eat by SNK. Also, not as easily re-usable in MVS hardware; it'd probably need to be implemented into an add-on board design.
3: Release a CD-ROM add-on. In this case, they can skip adding full hardware sprite scaling (technically speaking), since CDs can store more than enough data of any size in the era. But the CD-ROM add-on would need a decently sized buffer, I guess at least 512 KB, to make that approach feasible. Being a CD-ROM add-on, people are going to expect FMV support, so if the base system doesn't have that, the add-on would need it instead.
All of this would probably make it the most expensive option because CD-ROM drives & tech was not cheap for mass-market devices in 1991, and in case of an HES with support for only smaller cartridges and lack of full hardware sprite scaling, would be mandatory. Could also run into similar issues as SEGA CD with overreliance on shallow FMV titles (at least in the West) to try justifying it (and the HES as a whole).
Personally, I think a combination of 1 & 2 would be the best approach. Upgrade the hardware to fully support sprite scaling, rotation and Mode 7-style effects at the very least (processing power for rudimentary 3D could likely be optional), but do it through a board revision integrated into the hardware itself. Still lets SNK spin off that into MVS system revisions, and while it may add a bit more cost to the system w/ backend production costs, they can still afford to eat the added cost while targeting $299 or maybe even $269.
So a potentially aggressive $269, only $69 more than SNES's launch price (same year), same feature set but significantly more powerful 2D capabilities, and with good enough market adoption that price can come down in due time. IF they could throw in some processing power for rudimentary 3D graphics and keep MSRP around $299 at most, considering the ways they could advertise that as an additional advantage over SNES & Genesis....I'd of done so if I were SNK.
EDIT: Also SLX does mention compression helping with cartridge sizes, but the tricky thing is Neo Geo did not use tiles in the way other 2D systems did. It used sprites for everything, including background elements. Compression with sprites would generally not be as efficient as with tiles, though I'm sure many actual Neo-Geo games used cool tricks to squeeze compression where possible.
Really, it's the lack of upscaling sprites in hardware that would exacerbate the smaller cartridge situation for a more mass-market style Neo Geo system. You'd need to store sprites at the largest intended sizes on the carts, and figure out compression schemes from there. Indexed color palettes is one example (I know Neo Geo supports 16-bit color with 1-bit reserved for transparency on-off of a select color via color keying), but maybe supporting 12-bit color with no transparency bit would've been another option.
Or, focusing on graphics with 8-bit grayscale indexed palettes and smaller 8-bit or even 4-bit color indexed palettes (assuming sprites could support more than one palette...I'm not actually sure if that's something Neo Geo supported or not), etc.
EDIT EDIT: Also his suggestion of a SNK/NEC/Hudson Soft partnership is both interesting and ironic because, well, I've been thinking of & working on a concept of those same three companies in a partnership. But that one is more focused on a 5th-gen solution, not a 4th-gen console.
And it's more than just a console. But, I'm still working out a lot of the details. If I ever got enough vested funds to gather a team, would really like to make it a real product offering & business model. Hopefully I can talk more about it at a future date; I feel retro gamers and even people just feeling modern gaming's getting soulless & too "best practices" corporate, would really enjoy it.
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