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[pigeon interrupted]

This idea that it's only cat calling only ugly men aren't allowed to cat call is toxic, and that comic is about a white man escaping the world of masculine western women for the sensual feminine love of an Asian woman who knows her place... it is a toxic comic with a toxic message.

There's slut shaming aswell, if it's the comic I'm thinking of. The woman who refuses and accuses average, earnest guy enjoys getting hit on by handsome, roguish guy and agrees to a threesome (in not so many words). Evil woman!

it's not the most objective comic depiction male female interactions...

*argh, top

 

[lightskintwin]

Your awkwardly specific examples reek of desperation to make your case defensible.

I mean my case was built on specifics and being careful when classifying all forms of catcalling sexual harassment. That's the point.

 

[Shake Appeal]

This thread is a trap.

In what way is it a trap?

 

[John Kowalski]

i asked someone out on the bus once based on looks only, but she had initiated extended ocular copulation on two separate bus trips so i felt pretty confident she'd go on a date, which she did

didn't know you were into oculolinctus

 

[Fliesen]

i asked someone out on the bus once based on looks only, but she had initiated extended ocular copulation on two separate bus trips so i felt pretty confident she'd go on a date, which she did

This reads like some Walking Dead Eugene shit

 

[Stallion Dan]

There's a power dynamic involved. As a man, you probably aren't worried about a women escalating from cat-calling to hurling abuse or more. As a woman, if I tell a guy to "fuck off" or even ignore them, I have to worry about how they will react. In their mind, they paid me a compliment (even though it was unasked for) and now I owe them something in return. When I've ignored them, I usually get called a bitch or a cunt and I've been threatened when I've told them off.

This goes both ways, plenty women do not like being ignored and plenty more will react badly to being told to fuck off. And there are shitload of pretty women who think they're doing you a huge favour just talking to you and blow up if a guy doesn't show ultimate gratitude for the 'privilege' just bestowed upon them.

Then there are just normal people both sides of the fence.

 

[LotusHD]

In what way is it a trap?

Persecution complex

 

[ClosingADoor]

Sure, I agree, but it does happen, so what im asking you is:

What do you think the best possible response can be for when it does happen

What is the best thing to do to see that it never happens again?

I would imagine the response for the latter is trying to educate men on how it feels for a woman to be catcalled, right? Like the new york video, things like that?

I can't really tell the best response, because that differs per person. Like I said, some might become aggressive when ignored, others might start following if talked back to, etc. I guess ignoring is the best way, but you shouldn't put people in that situation at all.

As to how to solve it, that is a societal problem. More attention definitely helps, but I think most of it would need to come through upbringing and having made clear to young men that this behavior is unacceptable. That is a thing for the parents to do, coupled with attention in schools. Coupled with people being called out for it. See your friend doing this? Tell him he's an asshole for it. Things like that.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

So what's the script here then? Hey girl let's grab a coffee?

Like why? Why would you just go up to a complete stranger and think maybe they'll want to grab a drink with me based on absolutely noting but I think they're attractive...

Like are we talking about at least finding a way to talk to them for a bit first before asking them out or are you talking like directly approaching a random person on their way to who knows where and saying hey wanna grab a coffee?

1. Stop with the "hey girl". There is no hey girl. That's lame lol.

2. Does it matter if there's any small talk before hand? If I walk up and mention the weather or something beforehand it doesn't change the fact that the initial approach was based primarily on attraction.

Why would I ask someone out like this? I don't know, because I have a 30%+ success rate with it? And if it's a no, just saying "yeah no worries" with a genuine smile and walking away is generally the nicest way I can go about it?

 

[excelsiorlef]

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

But only if she likes it... what if in your ideal situation: the decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street ends up being say a lesbian who is not interested, a married woman who is not interested, or literally just any woman who is not interested.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I mean my case was built on specifics and being careful when classifying all forms of catcalling sexual harassment. That's the point.

lightskintwin, can you address Keri's post? I felt pretty similarly, so I'm wondering how, or rather why, you justify it in this case.

You're arguing that it's OK to continue doing something, even though the vast majority of women will find it intimidating and harassing, because sometimes a rare woman will respond positively to it. That's so goddamn dehumanizing, because it suggests that the feelings of all the other women in the world, don't compare to your desire to really capitalize on that 1% chance you'll get a woman to sleep with you.

 

[Fliesen]

The example I provided was not "hey gurl give me your number". I reiterated that it wasn't that, and you're still saying it was. Why is this happening?

Well how about you respond to what I'm saying instead of quoting me and responding to yourself?

i feel this post

So asking out anybody is objectifying them? I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

is where that whole thread of misunderstanding and playing a game of quote-telephone started, and back then we were talking about that whole 'asking a random stranger for their digits as they pass by' example. Which seems to have stuck with this thread a bit.

1. Stop with the "hey girl". There is no hey girl. That's lame lol.

2. Does it matter if there's any small talk before hand? If I walk up and mention the weather or something beforehand it doesn't change the fact that the initial approach was based primarily on attraction.

Why would I ask someone out like this? I don't know, because I have a 30%+ success rate with it? And if it's a no, just saying "yeah no worries" with a genuine smile and walking away is generally the nicest way I can go about it?

to put it abstractly: The request for further interaction shouldn't come before at least the most basic intitial interaction.
That's the bar you need to cross, imho, i'm not gonna superficiality shame. Like, i'd at least ask for her name before asking her to grab a coffee. If she tells you her name, she's obviously not disinterested in having any kind of conversation with you. - no requirement to talk about jobs, weather or sports game results, i agree.

 

[lightskintwin]

But only if she likes it... what if in your ideal situation: the decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street ends up being say a lesbian who is not interested, a married woman who is not interested, or literally just any woman who is not interested.

Then she can ignore it or say something witty back like, "Sorry, I don't like dicks" and hit him with that double entendre.

 

[Two Words]

I'm sure that this is not by any means the only reason catcalling is so prevalent, but I think this is a big factor why. Our society typically expects men to initiate interest in intimacy. It is what is "expected" from both sides. This kinda turns it into a game for men. And sadly, men are rewarded for just spamming attempts because there is no harm to them for doing so and they only benefit from it. I wonder if we moved to a society where it wasn't so odd for women to initiate interest, if that would change things much. I'm not trying to say "women need to change to make catcalling stop". I'm saying I think we should not hold women to the expectation that they are the ones always being pursued. Most of the women that I ask why they don't initiate things with a guy they are interested in, I always get two answers.

1. They don't want to get rejected.
2. They think asking the guy will make them look desperate.

The first reason is understandable. The second reason is an unfair attitude towards women.

 

[archreaper93]

Here's how it goes.

Guy shouts something at me. Is he making fun of me? Is he serious? If he's serious, is he going to get butthurt if I ignore him and decide to escalate/follow/hurt me? There's no way of knowing, and there's no way for a woman in this situation to react because she has no idea if the guy is a psycho rapist or just an asshole.

Ok, yeah. That's completely understandable. Didn't even think about the "How is he going to react" part.

If it happened repeatedly for the remainder of your life, at random moments, regardless of what you're wearing or what you're doing, hell, regardless if you're very young or not, I'm sure you would feel differently.

I honestly feel I wouldn't, but I'm not the one going through it, so I defer to and respect the wishes of those who do.

 

[pashmilla]

This goes both ways, plenty women do not like being ignored and plenty more will react badly to being told to fuck off. And there are shitload of pretty women who think they're doing you a huge favour just talking to you and blow up if a guy doesn't show ultimate gratitude for the 'privilege' just bestowed upon them.

Then there are just normal people both sides of the fence.

Are you familiar with the terms "patriarchy" and "rape culture"

 

[Sethista]

I can't really tell the best response, because that differs per person. Like I said, some might become aggressive when ignored, others might start following if talked back to, etc. I guess ignoring is the best way, but you shouldn't put people in that situation at all.

As to how to solve it, that is a societal problem. More attention definitely helps, but I think most of it would need to come through upbringing and having made clear to young men that this behavior is unacceptable. That is a thing for the parents to do, coupled with attention in schools. Coupled with people being called out for it. See your friend doing this? Tell him he's an asshole for it. Things like that.

I agree with everything you said, specially the upbringing part.

I have a daughter, and I have to prepare her for what happens out there, since the shift for this is generational, she will deal with this kind of stuff. If they catcall, ignore. If they start following you around, make sure they know you are not interested and stick to public places, things like that.

Would I rather not have to do it? Absolutely. But I want her to understand the progression, and not to automatically assume every single man she sees is an abuser. Teach her when she needs to worry, so ehs does not have to worry all the time.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

i feel this post
is where that whole thread of misunderstanding and playing a game of quote-telephone started, and back then we were talking about that whole 'asking a random stranger for their digits as they pass by' example. Which seems to have stuck with this thread a bit.

Yeah as I commented earlier though:

"Oh I agree, hence my earlier comment regarding how stupid such a demand would be. I'm mostly now responding to statements from people who somehow feel that initially asking someone out based on looks isn't okay."

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Then she can ignore it or say something witty back like, "Sorry, I don't like dicks" and hit him with that double entendre.

Oh man. Women tell you the issues they face and you say buck up. Lol. At least pretend to show some empathy.

 

[Stallion Dan]

But only if she likes it... what if in your ideal situation: the decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street ends up being say a lesbian who is not interested, a married woman who is not interested, or literally just any woman who is not interested.

They express no interest and both parties go on their way.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Does it matter if there's any small talk before hand? If I walk up and mention the weather or something beforehand it doesn't change the fact that the initial approach was based primarily on attraction.

Why would I ask someone out like this? I don't know, because I have a 30%+ success rate with it? And if it's a no, just saying "yeah no worries" with a genuine smile and walking away is generally the nicest way I can go about it?

I mean yes?

At least you're trying not to be so presumptive as to assume that a woman wants to be just asked out for coffee by a total freaking stranger out of the blue? At least you're trying to play it a bit cool and maybe give her a chance to get a feel for you and not feel like she's just some hot thing you might want to "get to know"

Like I can't grasp why you wouldn't even be willing to at least play some of the game first.

 

[The Salt Life]

But it's not unwanted sexual attention, which is what we're discussing.

Someone shouting that you are beautiful, or making a joke to smile more, is not sexual, or obscene in any way. I might agree that it's harrassment, but it is in no way, sexual harrassment.

It really depends on who you ask, scenario, the person you're saying it to.

Like I said before I did all this stuff in the early 90's when hanging with your boys just goofing around being pigs because that's what we were. Where today, you kind of have to assume someone is going to take whatever you say the wrong way.

I've been told I made someone uncomfortable simply for keeping eye contact while holding a door for them while they carried a shit ton of heavy boxes. Good thing I didn't go with my first instinct which was to offer to carry the heavy boxes for them.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

They express no interest and both parties go on their way.

Or how about leave her alone?

Reminds me of that sitcom character who goes to places and asks out every girl until one says yes.

 

[excelsiorlef]

They express no interest and both parties go on their way.

So basically the onus is entirely on the women to just put with it. All of it, because no single man, of the 100s that might ask in a year, can ever know if she's down for it.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Are you familiar with the terms "patriarchy" and "rape culture"

So every guy is a rapist in waiting?

 

[HarryKS]

Are you familiar with the terms "patriarchy" and "rape culture"

Enlighten him and us. You took the bait on that one.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

So every guy is a rapist in waiting?

Naw. But you exist in this world so you should be able to spare some empathy and not catcall.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I mean yes?

At least you're trying not to be so presumptive as to assume that a woman wants to be just asked out for coffee by a total freaking stranger out of the blue? At least you're trying to play it a bit cool and maybe give her a chance to get a feel for you and not feel like she's just some hot thing you might want to "get to know"

Like I can't grasp why you wouldn't even be willing to at least play some of the game first.

Oh, I'll definitely try to strike up a conversation if there's something relevant I can think of at the time, such as if I meet someone at a party or con or uni or something. Won't deny that I've just asked after some totally unrelated statement about the weather or something, though.

 

[Fliesen]

It really depends on who you ask, scenario, the person you're saying it to.

Like I said before I did all this stuff in the early 90's when hanging with your boys just goofing around being pigs because that's what we were. Where today, you kind of have to assume someone is going to take whatever you say the wrong way.

I've been told I made someone uncomfortable simply for keeping eye contact while holding a door for them while they carried a shit ton of heavy boxes. Good thing I didn't go with my first instinct which was to offer to carry the heavy boxes for them.

Well, maybe you'll understand that this overreaction what was clearly you just being friendly might be a result of her constantly feeling insecure/wary about strangers in public because she's accustomed to being oogled an catcalled by random men.

Like a kid who constantly gets beaten by their parents will most likely twitch if you wanna pat their shoulder for a job well done.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Then she can ignore it or say something witty back like, "Sorry, I don't like dicks" and hit him with that double entendre.

I'm guessing many women don't like to be hostile to or provoke strangers because strangers are potentially dangerous. They're going to be particularly careful provoking a male stranger who is presumptuous enough about power dynamics to catcall them in the first place.

 

[pashmilla]

So every guy is a rapist in waiting?

No, not every guy is a rapist in waiting. BUT WOMEN DON'T KNOW WHO ARE THE "GOOD GUYS" and yelling shit at us in the street isn't going to help your case. If you catcall, we're probably going to assume you're a creeper.

 

[Messofanego]

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

Is there a video of this?

 

[AnathemicOne]

Wow this thread, I swear it would get so much mileage Gaming-side to exposing all the douches that frequent the site, but I digress.

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

I've never seen this work, like ever outside of shit movies. I blame Hollywood, hell I don't see it in California where I live.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Then she can ignore it or say something witty back like, "Sorry, I don't like dicks" and hit him with that double entendre.

So basically your answer is yes all women should just put up with the sexual harassment from men because for those men it might work 2% of the time.

 

[entremet]

Catcalling lets me know which frustrated dudes dropped out of high school and will mow my lawn or clean my gutters for cheap.

Catcalling does have a heavy class component to it.

It's not bankers and developers who are catcalling.

 

[Shake Appeal]

So every guy is a rapist in waiting?

No, but rapists don't wear clear signs that say "I'm a rapist in waiting," so women have to apply blanket caution in their interactions. And they're going to be more wary of guys who already think it's okay to impose whatever is on their mind upon a stranger just because it amuses them to say it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Catcalling does have a heavy class component to it.

It's not bankers and developers who are catcalling.

I've been cat called by folks driving pretty sweet rides... I don't presume it's all class here.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Wow this thread, I swear it would get so much mileage Gaming-side to exposing all the douches that frequent the site, but I digress.

You know, you can be brave and quote the "douches" to let them know who they are. Would be a lot less passive aggressive... not that it would be any more conducive to conversation, though.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

If she doesn't want to be catcalled, she shouldn't have an ass like that.

If she doesn't want to be catcalled, she shouldn't dress like that.

If she doesn't want to be assaulted, she shouldn't dress like a slut.

 

[Fliesen]

Is there a video of this?

I'm quite sure it happened on mommy-makeout-day. or no-clothes-family-day.

 

[Messofanego]

So every guy is a rapist in waiting?

It's a shame that men catcall to such an extent that women don't know if they're going to be more aggressive or not but only men are here to blame for causing this fear. With the facts and statistics, it's fellow men who have caused this generalisation.

 

[Stallion Dan]

So basically the onus is entirely on the women to just put with it. All of it, because no single man, of the 100s that might ask in a year, can ever know if she's down for it.

It's basic human interaction.

"Excuse me Sir, do you have the time?"

"No"
"Fuck off"
'No response'

The reaction should be to move on, not to keep asking, or following, or harassing.


What you want is for no interactions from strangers in public, ever. That is never gonna happen, people are generally social by nature.

 

[The Salt Life]

Catcalling does have a heavy class component to it.

It's not bankers and developers who are catcalling.

Ummmmm, going to have to disagree with you there

Why are bankers not cat calling? Do they not have a dick and consume alcohol and act like the average guy when women are around?

Guys will be guys, construction workers and dirt bags don't have a monopoly on this phenomenon

 

[pigeon interrupted]

LoL double post nothing to see here

 

[Shake Appeal]

It's basic human interaction.

"Excuse me Sir, do you have the time?"

"No"
"Fuck off"
'No response'

The reaction should be to move on, not to keep asking, or following, or harassing.


What you want is for no interactions from strangers in public, ever. That is never gonna happen, people are generally social by nature.

If you think asking someone the time is the same as catcalling, I'm not sure this conversation is going to be productive.

 

[Fliesen]

It's basic human interaction.

"Excuse me Sir, do you have the time?"

"No"
"Fuck off"
'No response'

The reaction should be to move on, not to keep asking, or following, or harassing.


What you want is for no interactions from strangers in public, ever. That is never gonna happen, people are generally social by nature.

that's not what anyone is asking for. You're creating a strawman. Asking for the time, the way to the nearest Starbucks or similar normal human interactions with strangers are something entirely different than "you so hot, i'd like to fuck you" - be it verbatim or disguised as "gimme your number" or "smile, pretty girl"


I mildly disagree with the class thing. I feel like there's correlation (mostly because of education reasons) - but i don't agree with the assertion that bankers wouldn't be catcalling.

 

[AnathemicOne]

It's basic human interaction.

"Excuse me Sir, do you have the time?"

"No"
"Fuck off"
'No response'

The reaction should be to move on, not to keep asking, or following, or harassing.


What you want is for no interactions from strangers in public, ever. That is never gonna happen, people are generally social by nature.

There's a difference between starting up conversation in public with asking someone for the time compared to

"DAT ASS"
*whistle*
"You look pretty, you should smile more"
"Hey lady"
etc.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

It's basic human interaction.

"Excuse me Sir, do you have the time?"

"No"
"Fuck off"
'No response'

The reaction should be to move on, not to keep asking, or following, or harassing.


What you want is for no interactions from strangers in public, ever. That is never gonna happen, people are generally social by nature.

You can interact with strangers but if you're goal is to sleep with them then don't even start. Y'all don't say hi to every mother fucker on the street except that woman you wanna slam. Just try to envision what she (and a lot of woman most likely think -- hint, it's been said many times in this thread and by you): fuck off. Just do the fucking off part before you even ask. It's not that hard.

You're not putting up any good arguments for why men should be allowed to just talk to women. Women never get a chance to tell you no beforehand because y'all get upset just like when women cover their cups at bars.

 

[Stallion Dan]

If you think asking someone the time is the same as catcalling, I'm not sure this conversation is going to be productive.

that's not what anyone is asking for. You're creating a strawman. Asking for the time, the way to the nearest Starbucks or similar normal human interactions with strangers are something entirely different than "you so hot, i'd like to fuck you" - be it verbatim or disguised as "gimme your number" or "smile, pretty girl"

Example responded to involved no catcalling, just asking a girl out on the street.

 

[mxgt]

They express no interest and both parties go on their way.

This is easy to say when you have probably never had to deal with random people catcalling or asking you out when you just want to get on with your day.