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[dog$]

What changed in the DC era? Did gaming just go completely mainstream or what?

T you know gaming has been mainstream since the Atari 2600.
What has changed since then is that everyone just writes for their LiveJournal.

While I'm here.

Princess Crown, Cotton 2, and Elevator Action Returns are still cool. The arguably better version of Thunder Force V (albeit with elss content) is nice. Dracula X is only worth it for the omake .bmp pictures and text files hidden on the disc, the sound test, and the fact that you can fly forever in bat form.

None of the Capcom 4MB games are 100% arcade perfect but it's better than nothing.

RS is still boring as all hell.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I thought it was a well-known fact that the Playstation Dracula X was the best vesion. But it's my favorite game for the PSX, so there was no way I was going to pass up on the Saturn version. Then again, I got the game when it actually came out and was selling for the low price of $29.99 NEW. If you're a big fan of SOTN, it's worth playing through once to see the two new areas and as Maria and Richter to hear the new music.

 

[Dave Long]

What extra content is in the Playstation version of Thunder Force V? I've always read that the Saturn one was the better of the two by a large margin?

As for the fansite question, I think IGN and the way they run their sites pretty much eliminated those. Because they're split by platform and contain pretty much all the news you'd need to know about the systems along with a very fanboyish delivery, you just don't need MORE less professional sites.

Now, as to why there aren't fansites for older systems that are halfway professional, I dunno?

What does the Salamander Deluxe pack contain? Also, I saw there's a Gradius pack available. Any good?

 

[dog$]

PS TFV has boss attack mode, viewable image gallery (SS version has .bmp files hidden on the disc) and a supplemental text file of storyline stuff. Besides that, graphics, and the score algorithm change I think that's all of the difference bewteen the two... it's been years since I played the PS version so I can't 110% recall offhand.

 

[Dave Long]

Wasn't TFV one of those instances where the Saturn version was graphically better than the Playstation port though? I seem to recall reading that.

 

[dog$]

Yeah, it's especially evident in the background of the city stage (A3 boss).

 

[drohne]

salamander deluxe pack is salamander, life force (not like the nes game, which is essentially a port of salamander...this is a remix of the arcade game with more of a biological theme), and salamander II. definitely worthwhile. gradius deluxe pack is gradius and gradius II. saturn and playstation versions are identical, afaik.

i'd strongly recommend the saturn version of thunderforce v. psx version has some extra features and slightly less slowdown, but it's missing tons of effects, and looks really vile in places.

 

[john tv]

I seem to recall there being a lot of controversy over X-Men vs SF coming to the US for Saturn, as Capcom announced it and then unannounced it a couple of times (they were being wishy-washy because of the RAM cart). But I don't recall anything regarding Acclaim butchering COTA.

X-Men vs SF rocked. Dan Hsu and I played that for hours a day, every day for weeks. For money, no less. What a spectacular conversion that was.

I miss Saturn.

BTW, Lyte, I had heard SFA3 Saturn was kinda butchered. But you're saying it's the best home version of all. Can you expand on that any?

 

[pilonv1]

Asuka 120% Burning Fest. Limited - Schoolgirl fighter, each character is representative of their respective school club (chem, bio, wrestling, softball, tennis, etc.) There was the original Burning Fest on the PSX (which I also had), but never got to play Excellent and Final though.
http://www.importgamesjapan.com/SegaSaturnGames/SegaSaturnAThruDFolder/Asuka120BurningFest.jpg

I had a friend come back from Japan with two copies of this for about $3. I thought I'd never find anyone else who'd ever seen it, let alone play it.

 

[jarrod]

BTW, Lyte, I had heard SFA3 Saturn was kinda butchered. But you're saying it's the best home version of all. Can you expand on that any?

It was closest to the CPS2 version in terms of timing and physics (the PS/DC/Naomi/GBA versions are a bit off actually). It also had slightly larger sprites, slightly more animation and more dramatic battle options. The only problem was lsightly longer load times than usual.

And I was supremely pissed about X-Men Vs SF getting canned. Had Sega brought out the RAM cart, Capcom would've brought over not just XMVsSF but all their great CPS2 conversions. Sega really handled Saturn's wind down badly here, from software releases (passing on Grandia, Deep Fear, etc), to retail support (only 30k copies of Panzer Saga, Burning Rangers & Shining Force 3) to 3rd party relations (driving away Capcom, Working Designs, etc). Things really should've gone better, Sega had an 18 month gap where they released no console product... that should've been unacceptable.

 

[Dave Long]

I think we can thank Bernie Stolar for Sega's mishandling of Saturn's wind down period. The system really could have differentiated itself from the Playstation in 1996/97/98 if they had stuck with it and released the big 2D games alongside the 3D ones. They left so many games in Japan. The RAM cart was similarly botched. The whole thing was pretty stupid and if I ever meet Mr. Stolar in person, I'll tell him that him and the rest of Sega blew it. Generating good will when you're the last place console maker in order to prep for the next gen makes way more sense. Just look at Nintendo and Microsoft now. Not giving up on their consoles keeps them viable and even generates some success (Halo 2, probably Resident Evil 4/Zelda).

Bernie did right by Dreamcast, but he completely ruined Sega Saturn and Sega's name.

Anyway, on a much lighter note, I won an eBay auction this week for two imports. Thanks to people here for all the great suggestions. I knew better what I wanted after seeing more personal opinion on these games from people that have played them. I'm not made of money, so I'll be picking things up over time but this time I got Steamgear Mash for $4.99 and Wachenroder for $14.99. Shipping made the total about $28. Not too bad! Sure beats what they used to go for when they were newer. Wachenroder especially interests me because of the setting (Steampunk) and it's a strat/RPG like Shining Force. I like obscurity too.

 

[Tsubaki]

BTW, Lyte, I had heard SFA3 Saturn was kinda butchered. But you're saying it's the best home version of all. Can you expand on that any?

Er... I'm not even sure where you heard that rumor. While Saturn Zero 3 was not arcade perfect, it at least was attempting to be.

The PSX version for whatever reason rescaled the character sprites so that they were skinnier. The DC version was just an enhanced version of the PSX version (more frames, less load).

The SS version is the best of the three ports by a long shot.

 

[Dave Long]

What's wacky about the Saturn Zero 3 is I never really even knew it existed before this thread. There aren't too many games I run across in a year that I didn't know about but that's definitely one of them. I've got Saturn Alpha 2 and Dreamcast Alpha 3 at home. I'd love to have this Saturn version if it's closest to the arcade version though. Will keep an eye out for it...

How late in the Saturn's life did it ship?

 

[Lyte Edge]

The Saturn SFZ3 DOES have slowdown present, which the other versions do not have. It's still the closest to the arcade, but I used to love bringing that up when fanboys started talking about it on forums years ago. :lol

How late in the Saturn's life did it ship?

Zero 3 was quite a late release. It came out AFTER the Playstation version and Dreamcast version had been released, in 1999, possibly only due to demand for a Saturn version. When the game was announced for home release in 1998, Capcom said it would not be hitting the Saturn, but rather would be Playstation-exclusive for about six months, followed by a Dreamcast cast release.

At the time I didn't have a PSX (had to sell it and my entire collection to get money), and was doing fine without it, as I had a much larger Saturn collection and was awaiting the DC release, but the SFZ3 PSX announcement was too much and I bought a PSX back a few weeks after having sold it off. Took me about two years to get all the games I had back. Don't ever sell off your gaming collections, people!

 

[Dave Long]

Wow, that's fantastic info, Lyte! Here's an even better question... how many Saturn games were still released in 1999?! I mean, by that time Dreamcast was already shipping in the US and had been on shelves in Japan for like a year, right? It amazes me how well Sega Japan and the various third parties stuck with Saturn even into the Dreamcast launch days. I suppose that begs the question, "How many Saturns were sold in Japan?" because it seems crazy to be supporting that machine five years after launch given things dried up in the US by 1997/98.

Obviously, this Saturn port used the RAM cart? I'm pretty keen on this now. I'm sure it's not cheap if I can find it though.

BTW, one of the key rules of videogame collecting... never sell your consoles. A game or two here or there, yeah. But selling systems and entire collections is always a mistake. The only thing I sold in the last five years is X-Com UFO Defense for Playstation. It's a good port, but it's just unplayable to me after playing that game in DOS so much for years.

 

[Tsubaki]

how many Saturn games were still released in 1999?! ... because it seems crazy to be supporting that machine five years after launch given things dried up in the US by 1997/98

I can't give you an exact number, but I do recall that the number of worthwhile releases in '99 were very few. I think 99 had Capcom releasing D&D Collection in the beginning of the year, and Zero 3 came out close to the end of 99.

And on this topic, remember that it's now 2005, and Dreamcast continues to be supported. Chaos Field, a vertical scrolling shooter just came out last month. But to be fair, nothing else of interest is scheduled. There is a DORIKORE cheapie rerelease of Puyo Puyo Fever coming out in Feb though.

Obviously, this Saturn port used the RAM cart? I'm pretty keen on this now. I'm sure it's not cheap if I can find it though.

Well, you can only use the 4MB RAM cart if you have a Japanese SS or a switched SS. If you have an American SS, chances are you're using a convertor cart in the first place and hot swapping will kill your slot. So if that's the case, you need to find one of those 4in1s/5in1s (Pro Action Replay, etc). But those shouldn't be too hard or expensive to find.

 

[drohne]

i won't be surprised if we see a couple more naomi -> dreamcast ports. particularly trizeal and g-rev's new vs. shooter thing, the name of which i can't remember.

 

[jarrod]

I can't give you an exact number, but I do recall that the number of worthwhile releases in '99 were very few. I think 99 had Capcom releasing D&D Collection in the beginning of the year, and Zero 3 came out close to the end of 99.

Don't forget Final Fight Revenge. :/

 

[Dave Long]

I can't give you an exact number, but I do recall that the number of worthwhile releases in '99 were very few. I think 99 had Capcom releasing D&D Collection in the beginning of the year, and Zero 3 came out close to the end of 99.

And on this topic, remember that it's now 2005, and Dreamcast continues to be supported. Chaos Field, a vertical scrolling shooter just came out last month. But to be fair, nothing else of interest is scheduled. There is a DORIKORE cheapie rerelease of Puyo Puyo Fever coming out in Feb though.

Well, you can only use the 4MB RAM cart if you have a Japanese SS or a switched SS. If you have an American SS, chances are you're using a convertor cart in the first place and hot swapping will kill your slot. So if that's the case, you need to find one of those 4in1s/5in1s (Pro Action Replay, etc). But those shouldn't be too hard or expensive to find.

I'm using one of the Action Replay devices to play imports. It functions just fine and works with most RAM cart games. Got it from NCS as a Christmas present.

It's amazing to me that there were some bigger releases in 1999 for Saturn. I knew Final Fight Revenge was really late, but not the other stuff you mention. Cool!

I'm also well aware of the Dreamcast releases. Everyone new one tempts me to import. I love my Sega hardware.

 

[isamu]

Don't ever sell off your gaming collections, people!

Listen to him. Great advice. I when I say great advice, I mean GOOD FUCKING ADVICE!

 

[Tsubaki]

I'm also well aware of the Dreamcast releases. Everyone new one tempts me to import. I love my Sega hardware.

Well actually, it's because of the Sega Saturn that all my consoles after that are imported. Well, except for XBox for obvious reasons. But my Saturn collection is like 85% import, 15% domestic. My Dreamcast collection is about 70/30. PS2 is 100/0.

 

[Dave Long]

Most of my purchases are still US games. So much makes its way to the US these days that it leaves little for me to get excited about as imports. Sure, I could play games sooner at a premium price, but that's not worth the extra expense and the JP text to me.

However, when there is stuff that doesn't make it here that I really want to play, it's a bummer. Sega kindly made it easy to play imports on Saturn and Dreamcast. It's less easy to do that on the current machines. I'm not into the mod thing either.

So I buy legit import games for the Sega machines and it'll take something I truly MUST HAVE to get me to think of importing on the others. Mr. Driller for Gamecube is one such game. I might get that one.

 

[PC Gaijin]

Wasn't Final Fight Revenge actually released in 2000? I don't recall it showing up at NCS until somtime in late spring 2000.

Among current consoles, the Gamecube is extremely easy to mod for imports. Installing a switch is about the same difficulty (i.e. not much) as installing a region switch on Saturn. OTOH, I'm not even going to attempt installing a PS2 mod, I'll just pick up a JP system someday

The US Saturn catalog gets dumped on a lot, but it's really not that bad. Yes, a lot of gems got left in Japan, but you can build up a very nice collection of Saturn games (IMHO) even just sticking to US releases.

 

[Dave Long]

Oh yes. I'm pretty happy with my US Saturn collection. All the Virtua/Virtual games including the still entertaining Cop games, Decathlete, SFAlpha 2, Night Warriors, Nights, Panzer Dragoon I & II and Saga if you own it, Darius Gaiden, Guardian Heroes, Iron Storm, Daytona, Hang On GP, and one most folks didn't play but I really loved, Three Dirty Dwarves.

Yeah, there's plenty of good stuff available domestically. It's really rotten that they threw in the towel before giving us everything we probably should've seen. Vic Ireland noting in the Working Designs thread going on right now that they were all set to release the Thunder Force packs and TFV on Saturn but saw Sega backing off and subsequently quit working on it really drives me up the wall. I would've been first in line for those!

 

[ourumov]

Wasn't Final Fight Revenge actually released in 2000? I don't recall it showing up at NCS until somtime in late spring 2000.

Among current consoles, the Gamecube is extremely easy to mod for imports. Installing a switch is about the same difficulty (i.e. not much) as installing a region switch on Saturn. OTOH, I'm not even going to attempt installing a PS2 mod, I'll just pick up a JP system someday

The US Saturn catalog gets dumped on a lot, but it's really not that bad. Yes, a lot of gems got left in Japan, but you can build up a very nice collection of Saturn games (IMHO) even just sticking to US releases.

Yep FFRevenge was a 2000 game. I always thought it wasn't that bad...The Eddy/Rolento specials were very cool !

Anyways, I have the opinion that the SS had an excellent catalog...at least in Japan and even in Europe if you were wise. It covers almost all genres with 2-3 decent games. What more do you need ?

BTW, is it true that Parodius [SS version of course] was released on Europe ? Shit, last week I see a copy of the PSX one for 18€ (without box/manual) in some kind of street shop...I didn't buy it but now I feel guilty...I love the Parodius series.

 

[Dave Long]

Not sure about Parodius but it does show up on a lot of release lists I've dug up lately including this one that has Euro at the bottom.

http://www.classicgaming.com/saturn/content/vault/faqs/saturn/system/releaselist.txt

I do have a question for the knowledgeable too! I always dug Irem's In the Hunt and I know I've played one of the home versions before, either Saturn or Playstation, but I don't recall which was best. Anyone?

 

[PC Gaijin]

I dunno about In The Hunt, I only have the Saturn version.

Back to Bernie Solar and the end of the Saturn: I don't know anything about what was going on internally with SOA at the time, but can how the Saturn ended in the US be entirely blamed on Solar? Retailers just dumped Saturn stock right after Christmas '97. Prices on everything just dropped precipitously as everyone was trying to clear the Saturn out. I dunno if that was because they got word from Sega to do it (perhaps Solar's E3 comments) or if they all just finally decided to cut their losses since the Saturn was obviously a failure by that point. Saturn disappeared from most retail (Toys R Us seemed to hold on to Saturn stock a bit longer than most) in spring of '98. The only reason I got those last games released in '98 was because I preordered them at EB. A lot of the "missed" games came out in Japan in late '97 or '98. Even if Sega (or someone else) had brought them over, where would they sell them with almost no retail presence left? I'm amazed that Sega was even able to come back from that and have a successful launch in fall '99.

Edit: I've seen PAL Parodius for Saturn on eBay a couple of times.

 

[Dave Long]

Heh, I just saw the Icons on Dreamcast (G4) the other night and Bernie says right in there that they had to cut their losses and regear for Dreamcast. He was building a team to launch a system and didn't want to ride Saturn at all.

I wish Vic Ireland would hop in here as he has already given a little more info regarding that time period in the thread on Working Designs games that never made it to release. WD was totally floored at that E3 when Sega backed off Saturn like it was dead because they were already gearing up to launch a bunch more stuff including those Thunderforce games.

 

[PC Gaijin]

Hmm, interesting, wish I could get G4. I was always curious about Saturn at the end. It seemed to do pretty well Christmas '96, all things considered. I thought it had sold well enough to at least survive longer than it ended up doing. Hadn't it sold around 1.6 or 1.7 million units thru Christmas '96? What was the final install base in the US? 2 million is the figure I always hear thrown around. If true, sales must have completely tanked in '97 kind of like DC did in 2000.

 

[Dave Long]

2 million is the number quoted on the G4 special. However, I think they also did 10 million in Japan. It was their most successful system in Japan. So to just drop it like a rock here was even more mind boggling since the games were there and many would take little in the way of localization to get out there.

As I noted earlier, the biggest problem with letting it die is they lost everyone. Customers were just gone to other places for that entire year or more. Sega's name was well and truly tarnished. That Dreamcast sold over 300,000 in the first week was just crazy considering the way Sega left Saturn go. Insane people like myself believed that they were going to succeed. And really, they did, but they were so far gone that there was no way to clamber back out of the hole and support the system right in the face of three other competitors. I think Microsoft also had a lot to do with Dreamcast's death behind the scenes. They knew Xbox was their goal when they partnered with Sega and I don't think they ever expected Sega to succeed with it.

 

[PC Gaijin]

10 million in Japan? Are you sure? I thought it was closer to something like 5 million. I mean didn't PSX sell 15-18 million overall in Japan? Saturn was losing ground to PSX pretty fast by '97 too (selling 5k a week while PSX was selling 10 times as many). Saturn was fairly successful for Sega in Japan, but 10 million sounds awfully high.

Have you read Opening the Xbox? From what I gathered there it didn't really sound like Microsoft just saw DC as a way to get their feet wet in the console industry. The people behind Xbox kind of came out of left field; they were completely different from the guys who were supporting Windows CE for Dreamcast.

 

[Dave Long]

I need to read Opening the Xbox, so I'll take your word for it that Microsoft wasn't really looking that far ahead when they went in on the Dreamcast deal.

I did find a couple links though supporting the 10 million number. Here's one...

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/SegaBase-Saturn(Part2).html

It's 10 million total. My bad. I thought it was 10 million in Japan only with just the 2 million in the States and less in Europe.

Sega had sold approximately 10 million consoles worldwide - about 1 million in Europe, about 2 million in North America, and the rest in Japan and Asia. It was a pittance compared to over 30 million PlayStations that Sony was wielding in the world markets about that time.

 

[drohne]

playstation version of in the hunt has somewhat less slowdown.

 

[Dave Long]

Awesome. That's exactly what I remembered of the games but couldn't find any proof anywhere in a search. Thanks!

 

[radios shipping overview]

playstation version of in the hunt has somewhat less slowdown.

Quite a bit less, from my experience. Also, it has the (better) original arcade music, and better sound effects quality, iirc.

 

[jarrod]

Saturn moved about 12-14 million worldwide in the end iirc, with 6 million of that being in Japan alone. I think that figure also doesn't include the various licensed variants though (from JVC, Samsung, Hitachi, etc).

 

[FortNinety]

I'm constantly amazed by myself, by how with all the great games coming out for current and future systems, I'm still trying to fill my Saturn collections.

Like others have said, it was the first system that I really got into, such as making the import plunge.

There's a ton a great talk going on around here, and I feel like I just have to join in...

First off, nice to see that I'm not the only one around here who has Super Tempo. It's a nice little game, and a far better game than the original, which was shamefully never played in the first place.

Also, I've always been on the fence about Try Rush Deppy, but with all the good things being said about it here, I guess I'll hunt it down.

Plus, I thought I heard that Steam Gear Mash was not that hot, but if some of you are saying otherwise, I might track it down.

Liquid Kids - Taito slightly side scrolling bubble bobble esque platformer

Okay, I've never heard of this one. I'm interested...

Thunderforce Goldpack 2 - contains Thunderforce AC and Thunderforce IV. TF4 in particular is better here than the Genesis version because it removes the slowdown.

Radiant Silvergun - love it or hate it, it's a showcase of what the Saturn can do. beautiful looking game. and the game is sort of like a puzzle game in a shooter costume. not everyone's cup of tea, but it's extremely well made. I personally have more fun with it than Ikaruga.

I feel like such an idiot for selling my copy of Goldpack 2.

And seriously, how could anyone not love Radiant Silvergun. It's the best shooter ever. Period.

The arguably better version of Thunder Force V (albeit with elss content) is nice.

What extra content?

Anarchy in the NIPPON

Actually it kind of sucked but oh well

Really? It's dirt cheap in Chinatown, and I was thinking of picking it up. That was the game designed by a then top ranking Virtua Fighter player, right?

:And yeah, Radiant Silvergun, Cotton Boomberang, Mischeif Makers, Hermie Hooperhead, D&D Collection, Cyberbots etc, you name it I had them. And they all fucking rock.

Not to be an asshole, but one game you cited was a N64 game, another a PSone title. Any guesses to as to which ones?

 

[BenT]

Also, I've always been on the fence about Try Rush Deppy, but with all the good things being said about it here, I guess I'll hunt it down.

Please buy mine. Send a PM!

Plus, I thought I heard that Steam Gear Mash was not that hot, but if some of you are saying otherwise, I might track it down.

Being skeptical is good. Case in point: Tryrush Deppy.

Re: Liquid Kids
Okay, I've never heard of this one. I'm interested...

Be skeptical!

Re: Thunder Force V
What extra content?

The PSX version of TFV (Perfect System) has a tough boss-rush mode, a new FMV (IIRC) and some sort of mission data option on the title screen that fills you in on a bit of backstory. Despite missing some graphical effects (esp. in city stage) the PSX version is quite decent.

Re: Anarchy in the Nippon
Really? It's dirt cheap in Chinatown, and I was thinking of picking it up. That was the game designed by a then top ranking Virtua Fighter player, right?

Something like that. It's pretty poor, and I believe I also have a copy up for grabs. (Not much of a salesman, am I?)

 

[FortNinety]

Sorry to bump an old topic but BenT, check you PMs.

Also, is there anyone out there that can mod a Saturn? I used to have the original model, purchased at launch, and had that one modded later down the road. I really loved it (had a rocker switch in the back), but when my place was robbed, it was stolen.

I later got a second model Saturn and tried to get that one modded, but was told that they are not moddable. Was this guy feeding me bullshit? I have the 4 in one cart, which works great and all, but I really want to use my Capcom 4 meg cart, and I really don't need the Action Replay Pro functions.

If anyone has any info...

 

[MoxManiac]

FortNinety, you might try contacting NCSX. They might still be able to mod it for you, that's where I got my modded saturn from.

 

[Dave Long]

Yeah, NCS is a good choice. They'll probably still do it if they have someone that knows how to working there yet.

I'm making good progress on my Saturn quest to reacquire and/or collect Saturn games. I won auctions today for Last Bronx, Fighting Vipers and Real Bout Fatal Fury, the last of which was an import. I also got Steamgear Mash and Wachenroder a week ago or so. I've spent about $50 on all those combined including shipping. All cool and all good fun hunting them down!