Go_Ly_Dow
Member
About to give this a watch. Not often you hear from one of the localization legends who was involved in so many big Japanese games.
Alexander O. Smith - Wikipedia
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Localization Controversy | A Discussion With Alexander O. Smith | State of the Arc Podcast
About to give this a watch. Not often you hear from one of the localization legends who was involved in so many big Japanese games.
Shake Your Rump
Banned
"Hmm interesting.. I'll bookmark this to watch at work tomorrow... TWO HOURS???"
I may still try to watch it at work tomorrow.
I may still try to watch it at work tomorrow.
nikolino840
Member
Translate is hard even from english to italians..sometimes jokes are impossibile to Translate the exact translation ... for example in the movie "beetljuice" the mimic scene only works in english..in fact the italians translator they have added that beetljuice explain to wynona rider that are "two english words" Or in the big bang theory episode when they play pictionary that sheldon draw a nail polish to try to explain that the word of the game was marie curie..a polish woman
.
And how many times journalists make news where the source is in japanese and they translate in a wrong way
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And how many times journalists make news where the source is in japanese and they translate in a wrong way
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nikolino840
Member
Another example I can give is that in Japan to indicate the hours before and after noon they use the kanji of horse, because in the past in Japan the hours were marked every two hours today, and the two hours were defined with the animals of the Chinese zodiac (seen in kunitsu-gami) the time corresponding to noon was that of the horse. and it is the only one left, they don't use other kanji of animals ... so a normal translator would translate with AM/PM or do you prefer that they translate with before/after the time of the horse? Because that's exactly what it literally means
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Thats the thing sometimes trying straight translation is not accurate. One of my very good friend is from Iran and he taught me how to speak farsi.....and trust me trying straight translate that language to english would absolulty make zero sense to english speaking person, it just very different language than English.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
With long stuff like this I tend to listen/watch over 3-4 intervals!
ap_puff
Banned
I'm not talking about translations that are word-for-word. You can do accurate and non-literal translations without doing what the translation industry does today, which is to insert things that were never there in the original, recharacterize dialogue, try to make dialogue sound hip and use cringe slang. There are some games where that works, and some that it is way too far. Let me give an example. One thing I absolute HATE that's standardized in English translations is the loss of honorifics. There's relational context in them that not using them (or, worse, using their first name when it's something like otou-san or onii-chan) is just cringe when seeing it.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Shake Your Rump
Banned
Ended up watching it at work. Good stuff. Thanks for posting it.
A few ideas I gleaned from this:
Large publishers do not have rogue translators or an “agenda” in the sense that many people here suspect. The “agenda” is simply the marketing department (often the Japanese marketing department at that) looking to get the most sales from the western market.
Also, localization could be looked at as: there is this great game that was made (Japanese), and a localization team made a different great game.
I also like his anecdote about the translator and the book. If you want the original, it’s still there for you to experience.
A few ideas I gleaned from this:
Large publishers do not have rogue translators or an “agenda” in the sense that many people here suspect. The “agenda” is simply the marketing department (often the Japanese marketing department at that) looking to get the most sales from the western market.
Also, localization could be looked at as: there is this great game that was made (Japanese), and a localization team made a different great game.
I also like his anecdote about the translator and the book. If you want the original, it’s still there for you to experience.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Finished it too. Overall I'm on board with his main takes and arguments. I enjoyed the inside scoop on his time spent on FFX and FFXII.
The English writing and VA work in FFXII to this day is just a treasure. I completed the game again last year and loved it more than ever before.
The English writing and VA work in FFXII to this day is just a treasure. I completed the game again last year and loved it more than ever before.
Sakura
Member
I'm not sure that's a good example, 午前 and 午後 have literally the same meaning as AM/PM, or before and after noon. While it is true the first character is horse from how time used to be counted, the horse was merely a representation of noon. It is used in the same was as noon in English, and nobody thinks about horse when they use it, it is just a word.
Consider in English how Thursday literally means day of Thor or "Thor's day". But it would be incorrect to translate Thursday that way into other languages. It wouldn't be a literal translation, because English speakers just use it to refer to the 4th day of the week, and most likely aren't aware of the origins of the word.
A literal translation doesn't mean you are translating the etymology of a word.
kevboard
Member
exactly. this often intellectually dishonest nonsense, where people misconstrue what the criticism actually is about, and claim people want literal translations is so asinine.
people want a translation that is true to the intent of the original language.
it has happened many times now that characters get an entire personality change, or where very clearly someone inserted politics into a scene where there were not even remotely any connotations like that in the original.
ReyBrujo
Member
That's the only way of translating that. Anything else would be being more Catholic than the Pope. However I can understand when they need to tweak the language because otherwise the meaning might be lost in translation (because it might not mean anything for an American to read "It's as far as Kagoshima from Sapporo" rather than "It's as far as New York from Arizona", let's remember native Americans got an extremely low level of bilingualism compared to other regions in the world so they are quite limited in the amount of comparisons they can draw upon).
nikolino840
Member
I know that is the most logic
but is an error that it's also mean after/before the time of the horse? I don't know..let's take an example about a videogame based on ancient japan...would like that translators uses the word "noon" or "am pm" (two latin words) or horse?
InterMusketeer
Member
We have gotten several pieces of proof over the years that confirm (some) translators make changes according to their taste or political leanings beyond what's expected for a localization.
One could argue that those are singular incidents rather than a trend, but what you've described here sounds more like he's shifting the blame to (Japanese) marketing departments as well as the customer for having the wrong expectations. Seems dishonest.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
The issue is often lies with humor, puns and cultural references. Translating “as is” from Russian, Chinese or Japanese to English as an example just wouldn’t work the same way. A lot of meaning would be lost.
Hence we have attempts (often bad) to insert modern cultural references or jokes.
As to honorifics in Japanese, it really depends on a game, could take it or leave it. Senpai doesn’t have to notice me!
Edit: Not talking about the purple hair culture wars, mind you. That shit can completely butcher the storytelling and characterization.
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kevboard
Member
The issue is often lies with humor, puns and cultural references. Translating “as is” from Russian, Chinese or Japanese to English as an example just wouldn’t work the same way. A lot of meaning would be lost.
Hence we have attempts (often bad) to insert modern cultural references or jokes.
As to honorifics in Japanese, it really depends on a game, could take it or leave it. Senpai doesn’t have to notice me!
that is also not the biggest issue. there have been changes done where no puns existed.
anyone understands changing jokes that would not work in another language is ok. but there have been changes done where there were no jokes, no Japanese specific cultural connotations or anything. changes done specifically to change things. and that is the issue.
I am from germany, and in germany basically all TV shows and movies get dubbed. so I am very familiar with changes done to source materials. and I am very familiar with very, let's say liberal dubs like Hogan's Heroes, where they tried an authentic dub first, but that one flopped... so they made a more exaggerated comedy dub with funny accents and better comedic timing.
and I think even such very modified translations don't necessarily have to be bad. the issue is when changes are done for strictly the political views of the translators.
I think noone is gonna argue that the english dub of Ghost Stories isn't fucking hilarious for example. but that dub is not trying to sneak in an agenda where there was none. that dub has little in common with the original japanese version, but the changes done to it were for comedic reasons and to salvage a terribly boring show they were stuck with.
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Shake Your Rump
Banned
If you watch the video, he addresses this.
An industry translator who has worked on many classic games over the past 30 years is not "shifting the blame", he is explaining things as they are. My mind is struggling to think of why anyone would jump to the conclusion that he is being dishonest.
I suggest everyone who is interested in hearing an insider perspective watch the video. It's enlightening.
InterMusketeer
Member
I don't have the time right this second to watch the video. But the way you worded your post sounds like he's defending the concept that localisations are a different entity altogether from the original (it shouldn't be) and that people should just go play the original (a lazy excuse) if they're unhappy with a release. And just because something is a certain way now, doesn't mean it can't be improved as the industry matures and artistic integrity is deemed more important. Maybe it comes across differently in the video.
March Climber
Member
The issue is often lies with humor, puns and cultural references. Translating “as is” from Russian, Chinese or Japanese to English as an example just wouldn’t work the same way. A lot of meaning would be lost.
Hence we have attempts (often bad) to insert modern cultural references or jokes.
As to honorifics in Japanese, it really depends on a game, could take it or leave it. Senpai doesn’t have to notice me!
Edit: Not talking about the purple hair culture wars, mind you. That shit can completely butcher the storytelling and characterization.
It feels like you guys are trying too hard to find a singular answer to a question who’s answer is ‘all of the above’. Not just you two but others here as well.
‘It’s not this it’s that’ ‘It’s not that it’s this’.
What if it were both?
Shake Your Rump
Banned
I was only mentioning parts that were interesting to me. The idea of the localization being a unique game is only one potential perspective he presents. Also, he never suggests people should just play the original. He shares an anecdote from a prolific book translator about the original material still existing after being accused of ruining a book.
It's a two hour interview. I wouldn't take my 30 second forum post as gospel.
Kataploom
Gold Member
This is what I don't understand about those against direct translations, we're not asking that literacy, that would be retarded af, in that case AM or PM are valid.
Which is not valid:
- Adding stuff that wasn't there unless there's absolutely no choice and the game doesn't provide context elsewhere
- Changing dialogs "just because that's funnier haha" and because "og looks boring". Keep it boring if that's the case.
- Changing names unless it's aimed at kids and og sounds like a curse, which would be understandable
- Changing story
- Changing characters personality
- Adding stupid slangs or overdramatic phrases "because it's cooler man haha yeah so cool haha"
InterMusketeer
Member
Fair enough. Just found it interesting that the points you mentioned can be boiled down to very common arguments people use to defend bad localisations.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Having read manga and Japanese books translated very faithfully, I’ll have to disagree with your first point here. Japanese at large is a dull, drab, redundant, unexciting language. If translators never took some liberties to spice up the text a bit, pretty much every JRPG you loved in English would have very few memorable lines. On paper, what was done to Castlevania SOTN’s dialogue in its first English translation was a crime. In hindsight, I wouldn’t want it to be any different. The new, more faithful translation is dull.
Names get changed all the time, since the dawn of civilization, to accommodate local languages and cultures. Just think of all the deities in ancient cultures that were basically the same gods, but with different names. In the case of Xenoblade, the game is anime enough as it is that having a character named Homura amidst a party where no other name sounds so typically Japanese would have been a bit jarring. Also, 90% of western players would have missed the elemental reference in the name. The translators made a good decision there.
Kataploom
Gold Member
I just wish the English localization stayed in USA so name changes don't pollute other regions, unfortunately that's never the case
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Haven’t had the chance to watch the whole thing, but I found this particular episode annoying. The issue with the stance on original book being there is that it’s going to be inaccessible to most folks.
So if a translator butchers original story in say a Japanese or Chinese book, 99% of the readers won’t have access to the original due to the language barrier.
LordCBH
Member
100% this.
Sakura
Member
Absolutely ridiculous.
Like half the characters names are Japanese in the original. Hikari, Byakko, Tora, Hana, etc.
Yeah. Thank god they changed Hikari's name too, to Mythra. I'm sure the majority of the western players will understand the elemental reference now! Good job translators.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Nah. Just last year I’ve read through a series of 40-something Japanese books. Some of these are considered absolute classics. Most of them had the driest, most unengaging writing I’ve seen in a long time. The most hilarious case was a collection of short stories by Yasunari Kawabata. A Nobel prize winner. Borderline unreadable, the whole lot. And the translation was very clearly accurate… that’s to say, drab, dull, pedantic, and awfully redundant.
Names get changed. Get over it.
The debate over honorifics is hilarious, as well. In my language, it’s uncommon to even use expressions like “big brother” that still somewhat work in English. When a Japanese character says “big brother”, in Italian you’re better off just having the character say their brother’s actual name. Using honorifics for younger people, or people of inferior condition, would be absolutely ridiculous in most western languages. And then you have fan translators that somehow don’t understand that stuff like “princess-sama” is totally moronic. Make your language sound like your language. Trying to preserve Japanese syntax and idiosyncrasies leads to bad text and dialogue way more often than not. There’s excesses in the opposite sense, of course, and those should be kept in check. But localization is an art, not a science.
Kataploom
Gold Member
Also... Bromark, Drumbar... IDK, the thing they call Byakko, whatever it is. Names changing should NEVER happen, specially like in Xenoblade 2, where they said it was to "westernize" the references, but 95% to 100% of western gamers didn't understand those stupid name references because "the west" is too big of audience, specially these days where there are WAY more people into japanese media than ever.
ap_puff
Banned
W.r.t honorifics you dont have to say 'x-san' or whatever in English. Just add something that denotes what the line is indicating about their relationship. For your example of "princess-sama" it would be this in english:
You think people want to hear uwu-speak? No, just stop butchering what the original language is saying.
nikolino840
Member
Well i can tell you that changing names happened often in past in italy...even at schools...i believe boomers doesn't say Jules Verne the writer instead they say "Giulio" or Abraham Lincoln "Abramo" and happened in batman animated series that the joker was "the jolly" because in italy the name of the card is "jolly" or Darth Vader in star wars was "Dart Fener" and also in star wars Leila is Leia ian solo is han solo C1 - P8 is R2 - D2
marquimvfs
Member
I agree that localisation (instead of pure translation) is necessary to tell a story that's truthful to the author's intent. People should stop blaming localisation for what they don't like because bad localisation work is a thing. But that doesn't mean that every localisation is automatically bad. To my knowledge, most are good, some are mediocre and a minimum amount is real bad. The bad ones often are the ones were the translator use too much or too little localisation (in a sense of adaptation of the translated material), and the ones were topics that weren't in the original material were included, be it political or not.
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Lethal01
Member
I dont get why evey single time peeople jump to "So you want 100% literal word for word translations? that's dumb"
No I can go through a game in japanese then watch the English version and go "Some of these changes just don't make any sense"
ap_puff
Banned
I'll give you a perfect example. In the Metaphor Refantazio demo, there's a scene where one of the characters says "Osoi!" (you're late!) in japanese audio. They translated it as "stay back!" My eyes rolled at that one. Most likely because they needed something to match the lip flaps for the english dub, but it still made me groan.
Kataploom
Gold Member
They're always a weird "competition" between Spain Spanish and Latinamerican Spanish to see who fucked a dub less and they always use "El Guason" against Latinamerica because of how wild old localizations were here lol they should just start using joker, people these days are more used to original names and less external culture averse in general
Firestorm ZERO
Member
I only briefly skimmed it but will watch it in full later.
But one point I saw is they believe it is mostly corporate that is doing the censoring then rogue translators which I disagree. As we see in Twitter/X, Reddit, etc.., those translators openly brag they are changing and censoring the text and are dismissing the criticism.
I feel there are now few translators currently in the business that actually push for accurate translations.
But one good thing that is happening mentioned near the end, is that complaining about it, especially sending emails to the company, can cause them to fix it and hopefully make them aware we want accurate translations.
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Go_Ly_Dow
Member
They do go on to say if and when rogue translators do make changes away from the original script/tone then they disagree with that.
Firestorm ZERO
Member
Yeah just watched it fully. I am glad they are very open and have a willingness to listen. Now I have to watch the previous episode this is referring to.
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
This guy is the best games translator who has ever lived
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
The first ep is largely them letting Alexander O Smith talk about his perspective on the matter, which I was cool with because he deserves respect for what he did with FFXII alone, which is incredible and is a high bar for me.
But it's a good listen none the less!
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