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[Veidt]

It's not the fact that there is rap music to blame. It's a fact that a certain type of music has been used to appeal to the lowest carnal desires of the human mind in an effort to make easy money. The perpetrator being a destructive holistic materialist culture that segregates and labels individuals in society in terms of race, gender, and other trivial things.

He is unwittingly bigot though. There is no such thing as exclusively 'black' culture, just as much as there is no such thing as 'white' culture.
If anything, he should have said 'gang/ghetto' culture is to blame. Ghetto culture is a result of denied opportunities, broken homes, and other things. Gang culture is found everywhere in the world where there is a social, and economic inequality. And what happened the last few days is a physical manifestation of damage done to the lower class and minority groups on a generational basis.
These people are straight up thugs. But decades of feeding them this overarching culture, and telling them how they should act like, has come to bite the rest of the society in the arse. These people have always been like this, and other disadvantaged groups in society have had to deal with these types of people for generations.
David Cameron didn't come back to the country until he saw that the violence had spread all across the country. It's as if it's acceptable for this to happen in Tottenham, but as soon as it gets to Gloucester, it needs to be stopped. What does that tell us?
We need to get rid of this celebration of materialism, and labelling of certain segments of society.

This man blaming 'black' culture on what happened over the past few days. Would be idem to blaming 'white' culture for the economic crisis over the past few years. For some reason, I doubt this man was just as passionate about the fact that a bunch of bankers destroyed the wealth, homes, futures and pensions of billions of people around the world, overnight. I saw a whole bunch of privileged folk even more vexed at the riots than the very people that have had their homes/shops destroyed. Where were they when the bankers robbed society and were rewarded for it? In don't-give-a-shit-land is where.


tl;dr:
There is a culture to blame. But that culture is one culture that has different faces in different segments of society.

 

[Furret]

It's not the fact that there is rap music to blame. It's a fact that a certain type of music has been used to appeal to the lowest carnal desires of the human mind, in an effort to make easy money. The perpetrator being a destructive, holistic materialist culture that segregates and labels individuals in society in terms of race, gender and other trivial things.

He is unwittingly bigot though. There is no such thing as exclusively 'black' culture, just as much as there is no such thing as 'white' culture.
If anything, he should have said 'gang/ghetto' culture is to blame. Ghetto culture is a result of denied opportunities, broken homes and other things. Gang culture is found everywhere in the world where there is a social and economic inequality. And what happened the last few days is a physical manifestation of damage done to the lower class and minority groups on a generational basis.
These people are straight up thugs. But decades of feeding them this overarching culture. And telling them how they should act like, has come to bite the rest of the society in the arse. These people have always been like this., other disadvantaged groups in society have had to deal with these types of people for generations.
David Cameron didn't come back to the country until he saw that the violence had spread all across the country. It's as if it's acceptable for this to happen in Tottenham, but as soon as it gets to Gloucester, it needs to be stopped. What does that tell us?
We need to get rid of this celebration of materialism, and labelling of certain segments of society.

This man blaming 'black' culture on what happened over the past few days. Would be idem to blaming 'white' culture for the economic crisis over the past few years. For some reason, I doubt this man was just as passionate about the fact that a bunch of bankers destroyed the wealth, homes, futures and pensions of billions of people around the world, overnight. I saw a whole bunch of privileged folk even more vexed at the riots than the very people that have had their homes/shops destroyed. Where were they when the bankers robbed society and were rewarded for it? In don't-give-a-shit-land is where.

I'd agree with almost all of that.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

So, other than using the term "black culture" rather than "rap culture" how is he wrong?

He is not wrong. But he has the same problem that many white people have, he takes things out of their historical context. White people control "rap culture" not black people. White people have no problem making lots of money off the backs of black people but when that bullshit starts to become too extreme and spills over into the white community then they want to bitch. Black people have basically adopted a reactionary culture against white people. Any sociologist will tell you that this type of thinking NEVER goes over well. You can NOT build a society based on how much you hate another group or how much they hate you:

-Reading books is white, so not reading books is black...oops.
-Being feminine and soft spoken is seen as white, so being an attitudinal bitch is being black...oops.
-Speaking proper english is seen as white, so speaking street talk is black...oops.
-Getting an education is seen as white, so not getting an education is seen as black...oops.

This is a hole that many black people fall into when discussing issues in the black community. They refuse to admit that the majority of lets say African Americans subscribe to a reactionary culture. Instead they want to go straight to blaming white people. My question to them is why the fuck did you embrace a culture of ignorance in the damn first place? Over in the topic regarding the movie "The Help" I see lots of people mad at the mammy imagery in the movie, but they never want to talk a why have so many black females embraced that image, wheather knowingly or unknowingly. Whenever I bring these issues up black people, mainly females, want to act like they have no idea what I'm talking about.

Now why he used Jamaicans as an example I'm not sure. That was a terrible example.

EDIT: I just read Veidt's excellent post!
I'm adding to what he said. One of the main reasons that black people can NOT be blamed for the creation of the reactionary culture is because we are not finacial independant from white people, we have no economic power. So how would it be possible for this culture of ignorance to spread? Simple, "white culture" spread it like a diease. White people would be the only ones with that type of power just as Veidt said. White people fucked up the global economy so it only makes sense that they get the blame for the spreading of a fucked up culture that has spilled over into the white community. Once again I don't put 100% of the blame on white people for black people embracing the fucked up culture but they have to understand that they played a heavy ass hand in that. White people economically disinfranchised black men. When a black men can't get a job to sustain his family he is going to have to go to do something, anything to try to take care of his family even if it means doing something illegal. When this is done for a long time the culture of what is acceptable shifts towards that. This is why you have so many black females out here that like drugs dealers so damn much, the culture has shifted. So when you have black men that are trying to shift the culture back to normal what we found is that the vast majority of black females out here resist. They are now sexually attracted to the shift. The problem with this is that the change is against the dominant system, the white system. This is one of the major shifts in culture that has fucked up the black community because the outcome, jail or death, always comes. This then leads to the other problems like fatherless homes, males who don't have manhood on their harddrive, black women who are NOW forced to be strong and independant (despite their poor choice in a man), etc.

Now why do I not place 100% of the blame on white people because from my point of view there is no reason to accept negative behavior. But....the fact that the majority of black people did really shows how fucked up our economic and mental state really is. I live my life trying to be a productive memeber of society. I don't listen to rap music, I speak proper english, I wear clothes that fit, and I have an education. When I run into a person, whether they are white or not, and they still have a problem with me simply because I'm black....I can understand why you have black people out here that say fuck it. Now I will be the first to admit that it is self-destructive, but I understand.

One last point. A while ago there was a topic about racisim around the world. I was amazed at how the vast majority of racisim wolrdwide is trageted at black people, even in countires with little to no black people. That just goes to show how pervasive the damage that American whites have done to black people as a whole. Then they want to complain about what black people is and ain't doing. That shit pisses me off.

 

[Sneds]

I hear he's a dick in person.

I always think that he acts like a dick whenever he's on Question Time too.

 

[Furret]

He is not wrong. But he has the same problem that many white people have, he takes things out of their historical context. White people control "rap culture" not black people. White people have no problem making lots of money off the backs of black people but when that bullshit starts to become too extreme and spills over into the white community then they want to bitch. Black people have basically adopted a reactionary culture against white people. Any sociologist will tell you that this type of thinking NEVER goes over well. You can NOT build a society based on how much you hate another group or how much they hate you:

-Reading books is white, so not reading books is black...oops.
-Being feminine and soft spoken is seen as white, so being an attitudinal bitch is being black...oops.
-Speaking proper english is seen as white, so speaking street talk is black...oops.
-Getting an education is seen as white, so not getting an education is seen as black...oops.

This is a hole that many black people fall into when discussing issues in the black community. They refuse to admit that the majority of lets say African Americans subscribe to a reactionary culture. Instead they want to go straight to blaming white people. My question to them is why the fuck did you imbrace a culture of ignorance in the damn first place? Over in the topic regarding the movie "The Help" I see lots of people mad at the mammy imagery in the movie, but they never want to talk a why have so many black females imbraced that image, wheather knowingly or unknowingly. Whenever I bring these issues up black people, mainly females, want to act like they have no idea what I'm talking about.

Now why he used Jamaicans as an example I'm not sure. That was a terrible example.

I think the Jamaican thing was meant to be purely in terms of linguistic influence.

 

[avaya]

Starkey has expressed himself very poorly but the underlying issue of a chavscum/gang culture that prides itself on ignorance is inescapable. If we has going to point out black culture he has made a gross generalisation. He would have been more accurate if he said a subset of American black gangland culture, because that it is what it is.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The perpetrator being a destructive holistic materialist culture that segregates and labels individuals in society in terms of race, gender, and other trivial things.

Yes, it is popular rap music that has been bent and shaped by crass consumerism, crime, drugs and lack of opportunities not the other way around. It's not the tail that wags the dog.

In the UK when it comes to music for the disenfranchised underclass by the 90s it was clear even to the NME that rap had completely taken over from punk and other forms of rock. So it's useful to realise that what Starkey is saying about black culture could just as easily be a speech about punk in the 70s. Except that punk was anti-consumerist, egalitarian and nihilistic where as popular rap music is consumerist, focussed on being an "alpha male" and nihilistic.

 

[The Incarnation]

He is not wrong. But he has the same problem that many white people have, he takes things out of their historical context. White people control "rap culture" not black people. White people have no problem making lots of money off the backs of black people but when that bullshit starts to become too extreme and spills over into the white community then they want to bitch. Black people have basically adopted a reactionary culture against white people. Any sociologist will tell you that this type of thinking NEVER goes over well. You can NOT build a society based on how much you hate another group or how much they hate you:

-Reading books is white, so not reading books is black...oops.
-Being feminine and soft spoken is seen as white, so being an attitudinal bitch is being black...oops.
-Speaking proper english is seen as white, so speaking street talk is black...oops.
-Getting an education is seen as white, so not getting an education is seen as black...oops.

This is a hole that many black people fall into when discussing issues in the black community. They refuse to admit that the majority of lets say African Americans subscribe to a reactionary culture. Instead they want to go straight to blaming white people. My question to them is why the fuck did you embrace a culture of ignorance in the damn first place? Over in the topic regarding the movie "The Help" I see lots of people mad at the mammy imagery in the movie, but they never want to talk a why have so many black females embraced that image, wheather knowingly or unknowingly. Whenever I bring these issues up black people, mainly females, want to act like they have no idea what I'm talking about.

Now why he used Jamaicans as an example I'm not sure. That was a terrible example.

EDIT: I just read Veidt's excellent post!
I'm adding to what he said. One of the main reasons that black people can NOT be blamed for the creation of the reactionary culture is because we are not finacial independant from white people, we have no economic power. So how would it be possible for this culture of ignorance to spread? Simple, "white culture" spread it like a diease. White people would be the only ones with that type of power just as Veidt said. White people fucked up the global economy so it only makes sense that they get the blame for the spreading of a fucked up culture that has spilled over into the white community. Once again I don't put 100% of the blame on white people for black people embracing the fucked up culture but they have to understand that they played a heavy ass hand in that. White people economically disinfranchised black men. When a black men can't get a job to sustain his family he is going to have to go to do something, anything to try to take care of his family even if it means doing something illegal. When this is done for a long time the culture of what is acceptable shifts towards that. This is why you have so many black females out here that like drugs dealers so damn much, the culture has shifted. So when you have black men that are trying to shift the culture back to normal what we found is that the vast majority of black females out here resist. They are now sexually attracted to the shift. The problem with this is that the change is against the dominant system, the white system. This is one of the major shifts in culture that has fucked up the black community because the outcome, jail or death, always comes. This then leads to the other problems like fatherless homes, males who don't have manhood on their harddrive, black women who are NOW forced to be strong and independant (despite their poor choice in a man), etc.

Now why do I not place 100% of the blame on white people because from my point of view there is no reason to accept negative behavior. But....the fact that the majority of black people did really shows how fucked up our economic and mental state really is. I live my life trying to be a productive memeber of society. I don't listen to rap music, I speak proper english, I wear clothes that fit, and I have an education. When I run into a person, whether they are white or not, and they still have a problem with me simply because I'm black....I can understand why you have black people out here that say fuck it. Now I will be the first to admit that it is self-destructive, but I understand.

One last point. A while ago there was a topic about racisim around the world. I was amazed at how the vast majority of racisim wolrdwide is trageted at black people, even in countires with little to no black people. That just goes to show how pervasive the damage that American whites have done to black people as a whole. Then they want to complain about what black people is and ain't doing. That shit pisses me off.

Probably one of the best comments I've seen about race ever really.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Now why he used Jamaicans as an example I'm not sure. That was a terrible example.

Most of the black people in England are from Jamaican and other Caribbean immigrant families.

 

[Bgamer90]

Good post SSJ1Goku, but I don't think that you should have mentioned that you don't listen to rap the way that you did.

It almost comes across as if you are saying that ones who do aren't "productive members of society".

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Most of the black people in England are from Jamaican and other Caribbean immigrant families.

According to what figures?

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Good post SSJ1Goku, but I don't think that you should have mentioned that you don't listen to rap the way that you did.

It almost comes across as if you are saying that ones who do aren't "productive members of society".

I did not mean it like that. What I meant was when people look at a black person they automatically think that they fit perfectly into the "Nigga Box". The Nigga Box is a place that black people put themselves into by embracing being on the bottom. I said I don't listen to rap music I was basically saying I don't fit the mold of the majority of black people. In my experience what most black people do is hate the sterotypes about black people, but turn around and will still accept being on the bottom, embrace ignorance, embrace rap music, accept all of the negatives...just for the sake of, as they see it, blackness. They don't want to reject anything because they don't want to be shamed. The problems in the black community have gone on for so long that very few people would be able to walk away from the community unscathed. So what you get is masses of black people who have reacted accordingly and have allowed their shame to dissipate. Most black people are at a point to where they are completely uncheckable, even by another black person.

EDIT: Let me explain it more simpily, in my experience black people are very hot and cold on the issues in the black community. They either represent all of the sterotypical traits or they have none of them. I'm not saying that there are not black people out here who listen to rap and also have an education. But from what I have observed there is basically a wholesale acceptants of the sterotypes or a wholesale rejection of them. These middle of the road people are rare. Remember what I said a lot of black people feel that if you do not accept all of the negative traits then you are rejecting blackness.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

According to what figures?

2001 census says that the majority of black people in the UK identify with Caribbean origin. But probably more significantly the history of immigration in the mid 20th century.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

A Historian/TV personality. Presents a lot of British history/art documentaries and is pretty good at it, he should probably just stick to talking about stuff in the past. He's a typical oxbridge old boy Conservative who knows nothing about the real world.

He comes from a working class background. And his life experience dwarfs yours and mine.

 

[Meadows]

He comes from a working class background. And his life experience dwarfs yours and mine.

Nothing about the current world I should have added. Yes he did well to rise up from where he did to the position he's in, but he doesn't know anything about present day estate culture and should never have claimed to, especially with two experts on either side.

 

[Veidt]

Yes, it is popular rap music that has been bent and shaped by crass consumerism, crime, drugs and lack of opportunities not the other way around. It's not the tail that wags the dog.

In the UK when it comes to music for the disenfranchised underclass by the 90s it was clear even to the NME that rap had completely taken over from punk and other forms of rock. So it's useful to realise that what Starkey is saying about black culture could just as easily be a speech about punk in the 70s. Except that punk was anti-consumerist, egalitarian and nihilistic where as popular rap music is consumerist, focussed on being an "alpha male" and nihilistic.

I agree.

 

[Chinner]

so gaf is agreeing with starkey then?

 

[Subliminal]

Starkey is a dick that says ridiculous things for attention. Is this a surprise?

 

[Furret]

so gaf is agreeing with starkey then?

Agree is probably too strong a word, but he has identified some root issues. Even if he presented them very poorly.

 

[charsace]

All I can say is wow. What Starkey said is something he could not get away with in the US.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

so gaf is agreeing with starkey then?

Not agree, but definitely raises some points about why we have a social and economic underclass, even if he doesn't address them very well.

Read SSJ1Goku's post and that probably sums everything up.

 

[Baby Milo]

Starkey has expressed himself very poorly but the underlying issue of a chavscum/gang culture that prides itself on ignorance is inescapable. If we has going to point out black culture he has made a gross generalisation. He would have been more accurate if he said a subset of American black gangland culture, because that it is what it is.

damn they can even find a way to blame us on a different continent

this shit cray

 

[Sneds]

Agree is probably too strong a word, but he has identified some root issues. Even if he presented them very poorly.

I really fail to see the link between 'black culture' and the rioting and looting that occurred. David Starkey didn't explain what he meant by black culture so it's difficult to dissect what he said.

Obviously 'black culture' didn't invent rioting and looting. But was it a factor in these recent events?

Well, from what I can gather people have been focusing on hip-hop and gang life-styles. It's true that a lot of popular hip-hop glorifies violence and uses violent imagery. But many tv shows, films and video games do the same. A lot of hip-hop also focuses on materialism. But it seems to me that materialism and consumerism is an intrinsic part of western society and culture -whether it's Nike trainers, Rolex watches, Ferrarri cars, Sony TVs or Prada handbags.If anything I would argue that the violent/consumerist hip-hop stems from the violence and consumerism that already exists in our society.

As for 'gangs' - were the rioters/looters in gangs? Did white kids learn about gangs from black kids? Is that what he meant by white kids becoming black?

I didn't really understand the part when Starkey read aloud the comments from the young woman. Was he suggesting that there's some kind of causal link between using slang and rioting?

Obviously slang, music, fashions, that originated in black communities have been picked up by young whites. But the way Starkey talks you would think that if it wasn't for black culture, the white youths who were involved in the violence we saw would be socialised and model citizens. That's obviously nonsense. There are much deeper, long-term issues at play.

From what I can gather Starkey is full of shit.

All I can say is wow. What Starkey said is something he could not get away with in the US.

I wouldn't say he's got away with it in the UK either, thankfully. He's being accused of racism.

Edit: Also, the whole idea that black culture = hip-hop, gangs, violence is deeply insulting but this was picked up on by the other people on Newsnight. I think when Starkey said that the well-spoke black man 'sounded white' really showed his ignorance. And I think 'ignorance' is probably too soft a word.

 

[kamspy]

The more I hear from affluent UK personalities, the more the riots do not surprise me.

 

[crimzonflame]

Hip-Hop has a huge following in Japan and Korea (some would argue bigger than UK) yet you dont see youth acting out in those societies.

 

[bonesmccoy]

So UK Gaf, have the riots stopped?

 

[Furret]

I really fail to see the link between 'black culture' and the rioting and looting that occurred. David Starkey didn't explain what he meant by black culture so it's difficult to dissect what he said.

Obviously 'black culture' didn't invent rioting and looting. But was it a factor in these recent events?

Well, from what I can gather people have been focusing on hip-hop and gang life-styles. It's true that a lot of popular hip-hop glorifies violence and uses violent imagery. But many tv shows, films and video games do the same. A lot of hip-hop also focuses on materialism. But it seems to me that materialism and consumerism is an intrinsic part of western society and culture -whether it's Nike trainers, Rolex watches, Ferrarri cars, Sony TVs or Prada handbags.If anything I would argue that the violent/consumerist hip-hop stems from the violence and consumerism that already exists in our society.

As for 'gangs' - were the rioters/looters in gangs? Did white kids learn about gangs from black kids? Is that what he meant by white kids becoming black?

I didn't really understand the part when Starkey read aloud the comments from the young woman. Was he suggesting that there's some kind of causal link between using slang and rioting?

Obviously slang, music, fashions, that originated in black communities have been picked up by young whites. But the way Starkey talks you would think that if it wasn't for black culture, the white youths who were involved in the violence we saw would be socialised and model citizens. That's obviously nonsense. There are much deeper, long-term issues at play.

From what I can gather Starkey is full of shit.



I wouldn't say he's got away with it in the UK either, thankfully. He's being accused of racism.

Edit: Also, the whole idea that black culture = hip-hop, gangs, violence is deeply insulting but this was picked up on by the other people on Newsnight. I think when Starkey said that the well-spoke black man 'sounded white' really showed his ignorance. And I think 'ignorance' is probably too soft a word.

Tripping over yourself to accuse him of racism, while ignoring the issues he raises (however poorly) isn't going to help anyone.

Perhaps you could suggest what you think are the root causes of the problem and how they can be addressed?

We're continually told what the problem isn't, but never what it is.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Hip-Hop has a huge following in Japan and Korea (some would argue bigger than UK) yet you dont see youth acting out in those societies.

This goes back to my second post. You have to remember that in other societies manhood (protecter and provider) is still respected and there is still a sense of shame. There have been no major shifts in culture to where things would change for the worse like in the black community.

 

[Des0lar]

Hip-Hop has a huge following in Japan and Korea (some would argue bigger than UK) yet you dont see youth acting out in those societies.

I'm actually intrigued... Do the lyrics in these countries include violence and stuff like that. I've always got the idea that K/J Hip Hop is more about "being cool, having lots of money, having lots of girls, etc"
Am I wrong?

 

[charsace]

The more I hear from affluent UK personalities, the more the riots do not surprise me.

This.

And I personally think that you had the riots raging the way they were because people don't fear the judicial system or cops in the UK. A lot of people won't like my opinion, but I feel it is part of the reason why the rioting went on the way it did.

 

[Bleepey]

I did not mean it like that. What I meant was when people look at a black person they automatically think that they fit perfectly into the "Nigga Box". The Nigga Box is a place that black people put themselves into by embracing being on the bottom. I said I don't listen to rap music I was basically saying I don't fit the mold of the majority of black people. In my experience what most black people do is hate the sterotypes about black people, but turn around and will still accept being on the bottom, embrace ignorance, embrace rap music, accept all of the negatives...just for the sake of, as they see it, blackness. They don't want to reject anything because they don't want to be shamed. The problems in the black community have gone on for so long that very few people would be able to walk away from the community unscathed. So what you get is masses of black people who have reacted accordingly and have allowed their shame to dissipate. Most black people are at a point to where they are completely uncheckable, even by another black person.

EDIT: Let me explain it more simpily, in my experience black people are very hot and cold on the issues in the black community. They either represent all of the sterotypical traits or they have none of them. I'm not saying that there are not black people out here who listen to rap and also have an education. But from what I have observed there is basically a wholesale acceptants of the sterotypes or a wholesale rejection of them. These middle of the road people are rare. Remember what I said a lot of black people feel that if you do not accept all of the negative traits then you are rejecting blackness.

Just post the vid man

http://www.generation-x.net/members/viewVideo.php?video_id=5471&title=NIGGA_BOX

 

[Zomba13]

This.

And I personally think that you had the riots raging the way they were because people don't fear the judicial system or cops in the UK. A lot of people won't like my opinion, but I feel it is part of the reason why the rioting went on the way it did.

Why won't they? Your opinion is bang on the money. The rioters didn't fear the punishment and thought they would get away with it so they did it.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Just post the vid man

http://www.generation-x.net/members/viewVideo.php?video_id=5471&title=NIGGA_BOX

LMFAO! My man Bleepey. There was no need for that vid because that vid has more to do with black people accepting a fantasy, instead of the hood rat lifestyle.

 

[Sneds]

Tripping over yourself to accuse him of racism, while ignoring the issues he raises (however poorly) isn't going to help anyone.

I didn't trip over myself to accuse him of racism. I don't know if he's racist or not. I think saying that someone 'sounds white' because they are well spoken is a racist statement. But maybe he didn't mean it the way I took it and he just phrased it poorly.

I didn't ignore the issue he raises. I thought about them, realised that they had no merit and then spoke about them in my above post.

Perhaps you could suggest what you think are the root causes of the problem and how they can be addressed?

We're continually told what the problem isn't, but never what it is.

You know what - I'm not a sociologist or criminologist. Neither is David Starkey - he's a historian slash TV presenter. I would much rather hear the opinions of experts rather than the conjecture of Starkey who has no evidence to support any of his claims. He was speaking from a position of ignorance.

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't know exactly why the rioting occurred. It seems to me that there are a lot of people in England who don't feel part of mainstream, polite society and who feel that they have nothing to lose. This probably stems from a range of complicated social problems such as lack of education, poor parenting, and unemployment. However, I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with 'black culture'.

 

[Furret]

I didn't trip over myself to accuse him of racism. I don't know if he's racist or not. I think saying that someone 'sounds white' because they are well spoken is a racist statement. But maybe he didn't mean it the way I took it and he just phrased it poorly.

I didn't ignore the issue he raises. I thought about them, realised that they had no merit and then spoke about them in my above post.



You know what - I'm not a sociologist or criminologist. Neither is David Starkey - he's a historian slash TV presenter. I would much rather hear the opinions of experts rather than the conjecture of Starkey who has no evidence to support any of his claims. He was speaking from a position of ignorance.

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't know exactly why the rioting occurred. It seems to me that there are a lot of people in England who don't feel part of mainstream, polite society and who feel that they have nothing to lose. This probably stems from a range of complicated social problems such as lack of education, poor parenting, and unemployment. However, I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with 'black culture'.

What he meant by 'sounds white' is what SSJ1Goku is talking about when he says, "Speaking proper english is seen as white".

Like most of his comments Starkey didn't phrase the point very well, but I don't see how it can be accused of racism. I'm also sure you knew exactly what he meant.

I also fail to see how you can dismiss the idea that rap music specifically, and society in general, glorifies violence and criminality and exalts personal wealth and misogyny.

That they do is inarguable, to suggest that this has no negative effect on people seems to me absurd.

 

[Sneds]

What he meant by 'sounds white' is what SSJ1Goku is talking about when he says, "Speaking proper english is seen as white".

Like most of his comments Starkey didn't phrase the point very well, but I don't see how it can be accused of racism. I'm also sure you knew exactly what he meant.

What I said above is genuinely how I interpreted his statements. I could be wrong. Starkey didn't clarify what he said so it's difficult to know. I didn't get the impression that Starkey has very nuanced views about race.

I also fail to see how you can dismiss the idea that rap music specifically, and society in general, glorifies violence and criminality and exalts personal wealth and misogyny.

That they do is inarguable, to suggest that this has no negative effect on people seems to me absurd.

It's 'society in general' that should be the focus not hip-hop.

If you have evidence that violent hip-hop has a negative effect on people then I'd be interested to hear about it. I'm not just going to take your word for it. Did punk have the same effect in the 1970s when Johnny Rotten sang about kicking people in the face? Do violent video games, TV and films have the same effect? If so, can you show it? If not then why not?

Maybe we should ask why violent media is so popular in the first place.

 

[Furret]

What I said above is genuinely how I interpreted his statements. I could be wrong. Starkey didn't clarify what he said so it's difficult to know. I didn't get the impression that Starkey has very nuanced views about race.



It's 'society in general' that should be the focus not hip-hop.

If you have evidence that violent hip-hop has a negative effect on people then I'd be interested to hear about it. I'm not just going to take your word for it. Did punk have the same effect in the 1970s when Johnny Rotten sang about kicking people in the face? Do violent video games, TV and films have the same effect? If so, can you show it? If not then why not?

Maybe we should ask why violent media is so popular in the first place.

As I've already commented the reason why rap/hip hop is such a major problems is not the music itself but the lifestyle and attitudes of the stars. These people are not only looked up to, but trying to emulate them is now a tried and tested way of advancing yourself.

Punk was an extremely short lived and parochial phenomeon at the time and had a clear political agenda - not just the celebration of wealth and decadence.

Video games, again as I've already pointed, aren't real and have no real personalities associated with them.

And, once again I've already said, rap is not the only issue, TV and films glorify criminality are also part of the problem - although movie stars tend to be more poistive role models, at least comparitvely speaking.

I'd actually say next to rap/hip-hop culture the only equally negative influence is celebrity culture in general - the sort of magazines and newspapers that celebrate the trivial and denigrate the profound.

Humans are animals and naturally selfish, it is culture and the rule of law which stops them. And both these things are badly broken in the UK.

 

[Joel Was Right]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...larkes-family-evicted-Wandsworth-Council.html

I am having a difficult time agreeing with this

 

[Meadows]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLfEU5lelUM

A pretty good video for these times, certainly something to give food for thought.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...larkes-family-evicted-Wandsworth-Council.html

I am having a difficult time agreeing with this

Sartain-Clarke is charged with violent disorder and attempting to steal electronic goods from the Currys store at Clapham Junction, South London, on Monday night.

She shouldn't be evicted just because she raised a shitty person for a son, hes 18 throw him in jail. The end.

 

[The Incarnation]

Most of the black people in England are from Jamaican and other Caribbean immigrant families.

Incorrect. Most are now from Africa. Especially in London.

 

[Ark]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...larkes-family-evicted-Wandsworth-Council.html

I am having a difficult time agreeing with this

I'm on both sides of the boat here.

Whilst I agree that it's the parents fault for not being strict enough (from what I can tell it's a single mother. Oh how the stereotype continues to grow), I also think it's a bit harsh on them.

Given the choice, I'd probably evict.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

What I said above is genuinely how I interpreted his statements. I could be wrong. Starkey didn't clarify what he said so it's difficult to know. I didn't get the impression that Starkey has very nuanced views about race.



It's 'society in general' that should be the focus not hip-hop.

If you have evidence that violent hip-hop has a negative effect on people then I'd be interested to hear about it. I'm not just going to take your word for it. Did punk have the same effect in the 1970s when Johnny Rotten sang about kicking people in the face? Do violent video games, TV and films have the same effect? If so, can you show it? If not then why not?

Maybe we should ask why violent media is so popular in the first place.

A lot of white people have a hard time vocalizing their thoughts on why the black community is fucked up because of multiple factors:

1. They have a lot less interaction with black people than they thought. This usually results in some type of thought of black people should be just like white people but with dark skin. The problem with this is that it completely ignores the history.

2. The concepts of black people don't connect with the sterotypes they have in their own heads. White people seem to forget that they are the ones that created the ideas that black people are stupid, lazy, ugly, etc. You can't point to ideas of why the black community is messed up and go against those ideals.

3. Trying to pinpoint issues in the black community ends up pointing the blame right back at white people. And when they realize this they end up stumbling. This goes for the media, employment, education, financies (loans) and history.

Hip-hop created a shift in culture in the black community because it glorified the disenfranchisement of black men. Black men had problems gaining employment from the white dominant system. This created a reactionary culture. The only way for a black male to viewed as a man in the black community was to be a thug.

I'd actually say next to rap/hip-hop culture the only equally negative influence is celebrity culture in general - the sort of magazines and newspapers that celebrate the trivial and denigrate the profound.

I agree 100% the number of black females that enjoy watching Basketball Wives and Housewives of Altanta makes me sick to my stomach. Then black women have the nerve to turn around and wonder why their reputation is so fucked up. Not to mention the number of times black women on those shows call each other "bitches." And black women say hip-hop degrades black women *rolls eyes*

 

[Speedymanic]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...larkes-family-evicted-Wandsworth-Council.html

I am having a difficult time agreeing with this

I don't agree with this at all, but the crap his mother is coming out with. The fact that she thinks she's not ultimately responsible for her kids actions is pretty shocking stuff.

Oh and apparently he's a pillar of the community who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sure... :/

 

[Black Republican]

Hip-Hop has a huge following in Japan and Korea (some would argue bigger than UK) yet you dont see youth acting out in those societies.

"Asians are the good ones"

 

[Speedymanic]

"Asians are the good ones"

They also have a very strong sense of community and a very strong sense of honour and shame, something that's wholly lacking in the UK.

 

[The Incarnation]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxc7I6kIgiE

Surprised no one has mentioned the riots in Chile currently.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...larkes-family-evicted-Wandsworth-Council.html

I am having a difficult time agreeing with this

Sure, mix rights with responsibilities but I can't help but think of this comment about the Tory austerity cuts.

"It is tantamount to cleansing the poor out of rich areas – a brutal and shocking piece of social engineering." - Jon Cruddas

 

[Jin34]

Damn Veidt and SSJ1Goku with back to back excellent posts.

Also evicting whole families because of the crimes of one member is really going to work out well.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

2001 census says that the majority of black people in the UK identify with Caribbean origin. But probably more significantly the history of immigration in the mid 20th century.

2007 numbers show it's changed, just by .5 million though